XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Konsolkongen]

If the upscaling from 720p to 1080p is really bad on your TV I can see why that would be a bummer As you say yourself, it's been years now, so I don't think they are working on it.

[Fudoh]

STILLLL no firmware fix for 1080p mode?

what are you looking for ? Fixing the scanlines in 1080p mode (if that's what you mean) involves changing the scanline engine completely and - my bet - most people would not like the results.

[RGB32E]

STILLLL no firmware fix for 1080p mode?

what are you looking for ? Fixing the scanlines in 1080p mode (if that's what you mean) involves changing the scanline engine completely and - my bet - most people would not like the results.

Glad I'm not interested in scanlines on a flat panel! If I wanted scanlines, I'd use a display that has them natively... i.e. a CRT.

[brentsg]

I started using mine with my Saturn and RGB cables last night. I enjoyed a few games and was really pleased, until I put in "In the Hunt" and can't get video.

I guess now I have to read the whole thread and look for settings explanations and recommendations.

[Fudoh]

You're sure that your Saturn is compatible with In the Hunt ? Just asking because there was a general issue with saturn units not playing In the Hunt. If it worked before, just cycle inputs on the Mini after the game has loaded.

[brentsg]

You're sure that your Saturn is compatible with In the Hunt ? Just asking because there was a general issue with saturn units not playing In the Hunt. If it worked before, just cycle inputs on the Mini after the game has loaded.

That's interesting, not sure. I have played it before, but I also own many Saturns. The one I was testing with is the clear blue one (skeleton derby stallion).

[Fudoh]

If you have a model 1 unit, try that one....

[Konsolkongen]

In the Hunt works fine on my "Cool" Saturn (That would be a model 2).

[brentsg]

The rest of mine are in storage so I'll mess with this a bit and just assume that a different one will work.

[rmwing]

This may not be Mini related but my N64 still looks balls. I am in PAL land so it is a PAL console which I've heard just have a terrible video signal anyway, would getting an NTSC console and a passport improve it or is it something to do with the Carts themsleves?

I am running it through the consolegoods.co.uk modded S-Video cables as well.

[DJ Mike]

I've been experimenting with various settings/cables over the weekend. Playing a fair amount of PAL games on my PS2, and till now I'd been using the Natural image mode for 480i content, but I've found that combined with my component lead there seems to be an issue with green being oversaturated. Was particularly noticeable in Kingdom Hearts II (I know, I know - not a shooter - sorry...) - any time vivid green was in the picture it seems to go almost neon in appearance!

Switching to Movie mode seems to alleviate it - the greens look nicer. But Movie mode also seems to show more video noise than Natural - a possible case of more filtering being applied in Natural?

The oversaturation seems to be specific to component - if I plug in my RGB SCART lead the greens are more subdued but so are the other colours. Not sure which I prefer if I'm honest! I like the vibrancy of component but those neon greens are weird!

[Thomago]

I've been experimenting with various settings/cables over the weekend. Playing a fair amount of PAL games on my PS2, and till now I'd been using the Natural image mode for 480i content, but I've found that combined with my component lead there seems to be an issue with green being oversaturated. Was particularly noticeable in Kingdom Hearts II (I know, I know - not a shooter - sorry...) - any time vivid green was in the picture it seems to go almost neon in appearance!

Switching to Movie mode seems to alleviate it - the greens look nicer. But Movie mode also seems to show more video noise than Natural - a possible case of more filtering being applied in Natural?

Movie mode adds artificial noise. If you don't care about that, Movie mode is highly recommended (imho), since it's the only mode offering real deinterlacing, natural colors and absence of the Mini's overly-aggresive low frequency filter (no blurry image, yay).

The oversaturation seems to be specific to component - if I plug in my RGB SCART lead the greens are more subdued but so are the other colours. Not sure which I prefer if I'm honest! I like the vibrancy of component but those neon greens are weird!

Yeah, colors look quite off in component. You improve them by lowering HUE, but well... the Mini obviously doesn't like that and will surprise you with an extra helping of greens if you dare to shut it off / change the signal source. (Adjust HUE again to get rid of that.)

Alternatively you can just adjust the saturation, brightness and contrast for the RGB input to get more vibrant colors.

[DJ Mike]

Movie mode adds artificial noise. If you don't care about that, Movie mode is highly recommended (imho), since it's the only mode offering real deinterlacing, natural colors and absence of the Mini's overly-aggresive low frequency filter (no blurry image, yay).

Artificial noise... yikes. Is that confirmed anywhere? It did seem strange that there'd be that much noise on the cable, but then I've seen some pretty heavy noise from my PS2 in the past so it's hard to be sure.

Yeah, colors look quite off in component. You improve them by lowering HUE, but well... the Mini obviously doesn't like that and will surprise you with an extra helping of greens if you dare to shut it off / change the signal source. (Adjust HUE again to get rid of that.)

Speaking of which, the Colour menu offers options for changing Red, Green and Blue but they are always greyed out for me when I try to change any of them. Under what circumstance do them become available?

[Fudoh]

RGB controls are only available for RGB signals. For component you're left with saturation and hue instead.

[Thomago]

Artificial noise... yikes. Is that confirmed anywhere?

Don't know about any "official" confirmation, but it's fairly obvious if you compare Movie mode (added noise) and Picture mode (no added noise).

[DJ Mike]

Artificial noise... yikes. Is that confirmed anywhere?

Don't know about any "official" confirmation, but it's fairly obvious if you compare Movie mode (added noise) and Picture mode (no added noise).

I expect a degree of noise in an analog signal, which makes me wonder if Movie mode is more true to the source and Natural still has a degree of noise reduction in place.

[Fudoh]

possibly, but hard to say, since ALL displays and processors incorporate a low pass filter in their A/D stage and that always filters noise to some degree. So it's hard to find a benchmark to compare an image to.

[Thomago]

I expect a degree of noise in an analog signal, which makes me wonder if Movie mode is more true to the source and Natural still has a degree of noise reduction in place.

Ah, good point.

I calibrated my Mini's RBG brightness/contrast by means of the PS2's memory card menu: I adjust the Mini's BRIGHTNESS and A/D LEVEL in such a way that the overlay area is just perfectly black (increasing BRIGHTNESS by even one unit will result in brightening of the black while decreasing it won't result in addition blackening at this point) and the bright "shine" of the chosen savegame is perfectly white (decreasing A/D LEVEL will result in darkening of the white while increasing it won't result in additional brightening at this point).

All that takes place in Picture Mode (with R, G, B = 50!). If I switch to Movie mode, the perfect black is brightned up and the perfect white becomes a bit darker - a typical effect if you add black/white noise to a picture.
Also, if you lower the Mini's output resolution, the noise becomes more obvious and rougher (it's obviously added after scaling). If the noise was part of signal, it would become less obvious / more blurred when lowering the output resolution.

Ergo, there's no doubt for me that Movie mode adds artificial noise.

[Zhoul]

The default output for 480p games on consoles like the DC/PS2/GC/Xbox1 is 480i, correct? So when running these 480p games through the mini, should I be concerned about getting the blurry 480p output that I've been reading about on here? Earlier in this thread I read something about buying a sync processor to assist with 480p content, but wouldn't it be easier just to let the mini de-interlace the default 480i image?

Sorry if these questions have already been answered. I don't have time to read all 142 pages. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this so I don't end up with a $400 paperweight.

[Fudoh]

The default output for 480p games on consoles like the DC/PS2/GC/Xbox1 is 480i, correct?

On DC and XBox the majority of titles support 480p output. And if that's available, you should use it. A good number of NTSC GC titles support 480p as well. On the PS2 the percentage drops a lot.

should I be concerned about getting the blurry 480p output that I've been reading about on here?

you should not be concerned by the Mini's 480 processing at all. For most people the 480p upscaling is perfectly fine. Only because some other $500 machines do it better, doesn't mean that the Mini does it bad.

but wouldn't it be easier just to let the mini de-interlace the default 480i image?

native 480p is always better.

[Zhoul]

Thanks, Fudoh.

I was thinking that even with a slightly blurry picture, the scanlines would help minimize that to some effect. The worst images I've seen from SD content are those without scanlines.

[Fudoh]

The Mini will provide scanlines for you, no matter if your source is 240, 480i or 480p.

Also, the Mini's scaling will be better with 480i input (that's a bug), but the native detail level in motion will be higher on 480p sources.

[DJ Mike]

All that takes place in Picture Mode (with R, G, B = 50!). If I switch to Movie mode, the perfect black is brightned up and the perfect white becomes a bit darker - a typical effect if you add black/white noise to a picture.
Also, if you lower the Mini's output resolution, the noise becomes more obvious and rougher (it's obviously added after scaling). If the noise was part of signal, it would become less obvious / more blurred when lowering the output resolution.

Ergo, there's no doubt for me that Movie mode adds artificial noise.

I switched to using my PC monitor again (have been playing on big TV downstairs) and I see what you mean now - if I engage Movie mode the grain that appears does have a strong artificial feel to it (i.e. too uniform to be video noise). How strange! Otherwise, Movie mode does handle the colour slightly better. A shame that the Hue setting is forgotten when you switch off or change inputs. Still, the overvibrant greens don't show up too often so it's not the worst problem to endure.

[game-tech.us]

the RGB NES and AV Famicoms I built require.

A customer sent me his xrgb mini to test with his top loader he had me rgb mod, problem is I get only a blue screen (no input detected). I'm using the encoder board I always use and it works fine via scart to my pvm. I also rgb modded a snes2 and it works fine with the xrgb.
So... wth...
If I don't get any suggestions i'll post a video of what i've done so far if that will help.

[Fudoh]

But you get audio, right ?

If you get no picture at all through RGB and you tried all possible sync level settings on the Mini, you're usually missing a proper ground connection. I would check which ground pins are actually wired in the RGB cable and which are wired in the Mini adapter cable and make sure they match.

[game-tech.us]

But you get audio, right ?

If you get no picture at all through RGB and you tried all possible sync level settings on the Mini, you're usually missing a proper ground connection. I would check which ground pins are actually wired in the RGB cable and which are wired in the Mini adapter cable and make sure they match.

I'm not positive i'm doing any of the sync setting correctly, level is 0-31, but do I need to somehow reboot it after each change? I was hitting rgb input and that seemed to reboot it with the different setting, but nothing I tried worked. Also should I try each number with sync mode in auto and also in off?
I doubt a ground issue as I have it hooked to a multi connector just like the snes2 and it worked.
I did not have audio hooked up with nes2, but yes if I hook it up it comes through.
I was hoping rgb32e would share any info on settings or whatever since he's actually got an rgb modded nes working with the mini, that's why I quoted him in my first post...

[game-tech.us]

I just learned from the customer that the din8 cord is the one that came with it, so jp21, and the other cords are wired as euro scart. I assume this is my issue, but it really confuses the situation that the snes worked. Can the mini use composite from the din8 rgb input?

[Konsolkongen]

It cannot

[game-tech.us]

Ok, I think he's wrong, the rgb pins can be traced back to the 21pin connector on pins designated for euro scart!
What I can't find is the sync pin from the din8 back to the 21pin. It should be pin 20 and there is a .1uF cap connected to it, and I can only assume other end connected to the yellow wire, but it doesn't seem to have continuity to din8 pin #3!?!? It's full of potting material making it difficult to pinout.

[RGB32E]

Ok, I think he's wrong, the rgb pins can be traced back to the 21pin connector on pins designated for euro scart!
What I can't find is the sync pin from the din8 back to the 21pin. It should be pin 20 and there is a .1uF cap connected to it, and I can only assume other end connected to the yellow wire, but it doesn't seem to have continuity to din8 pin #3!?!? It's full of potting material making it difficult to pinout.

Sounds like you're almost there! Where did this non-stock SCART to 8MDIN adapter come from? It'd be nice if people didn't use the SCART pinout, and just stuck with RGB21.

For reference, I've used 3 different NES RGB mod configurations and none of them require any non-default special settings on the XRGB-mini, aside from setting H_POS to 71. Are you using a LM1881 to buffer CSYNC?