Too close for comfort? the revival?

[BIL]

Torquay was also the setting for the classic British comedy Fawlty Towers - I highly recommend it! (the series, not the place - I've never been, but I hear it's lovely!)

[Nasirosuchus]

Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that you have talents and abilities that somebody would want to pay you for. One day, your boss comes in and tells you he isn't going to pay you for the work you did all this week, even though it's in the contract, and tells you that he'll see you on Monday. That's piracy, in essence. You can bleat all you like that not paying what you owe is somehow not stealing, but that seems like a trivial distinction.

The problem with that analogy is that it's based on the assumption that everyone who acquires an unauthorized copy and doesn't buy it would have done so had the unauthorized copy not been available. If your point is that there's something wrong with using the creating without having paid for it, then the same things occurs when buying a game/dvd/cd used or borrowing it.

It's not a trivial distinction which is why there are laws that deal with theft and other laws that deal with copyright infringement.It
isn't piracy, either. Piracy, in America atleast, is defined as murder and pillage on the high seas and is punishable by life in prison.

[Nasirosuchus]

Thank you for admitting you were in the wrong about everything I wrote.

I was? Thanks for telling me. Next time I'm not sure what I mean I'll come straight to you.

Yes, that is one possiblity. It's also possible mj is secretly working for HM Revenue & Customs, and is conducting an anti-piracy sting operation. Or maybe his entire posting history on this forum is a front for his real job as an employee of the Torquay Tourist Board. There are all sorts of fascinating possibilities. I followed the most likely one given the post's content and its context. If he was just trolling, who cares anyway?

Or maybe........

A clever and well-composed statement like this certainly proves YOUR intelligence. You can't be rattled in your game, can you? No one can touch such a great mind with a ten-foot pole.

Thanks!

Yes, I linked it from the BBC's website. What's your point?

You asked what the 'it' was so I told you.

Yes, but you were referring to my posts, which had nothing to do with the emulation of videogames.

I have referred to the posts of several people.

Yes, I'd probably be avoiding the issue if I were you, too.

What issue? Be more specific, please.

Evidently, I'm not as intellectually insecure as you.

The last time I checked, I'm not the one who's had to resort to making childish remarks while you indeed have. Just sayin'

And I'm not "wasting my time," I'm sat in my study on a nice quiet afternoon with my feet up browsing the internet......

While eagerly awaiting the every response of an idiot and replying to him every chance you get almost immediately after it comes up. You can say what you want about me, but you're one who feels it's important to give the time of day to someone who lacks any and all intelligence.

[Sumez]

You are truly a master of quote tags.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

in 2001, way before broadband and CD recording hardware became cheap enough to make piracy even affordable.

This isn't true depending on where you were living. Many big cities and a lot of medium sized towns even in 1999-2000 had broadband and reasonably priced CD burners and discs. I was paying less than 50 cents per blank CD as well at Best Buy in bulk as far back as 1999. I didn't own a DC back then but I was burning CDs since 1998. I believe it was late 1998 when the first 4X burner came out.

[DrTrouserPlank]

CD burners were about £200 ($350) back then in the UK. Discs were several quid each as well.

[Drum]

Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that you have talents and abilities that somebody would want to pay you for. One day, your boss comes in and tells you he isn't going to pay you for the work you did all this week, even though it's in the contract, and tells you that he'll see you on Monday. That's piracy, in essence. You can bleat all you like that not paying what you owe is somehow not stealing, but that seems like a trivial distinction.

The problem with that analogy is that it's based on the assumption that everyone who acquires an unauthorized copy and doesn't buy it would have done so had the unauthorized copy not been available.

Uhhh ... no? What?

If your point is that there's something wrong with using the creating without having paid for it, then the same things occurs when buying a game/dvd/cd used or borrowing it.

I, like the law, am aok with people borrowing books/dvds/games/cds etc. Unlike the law, I am also ok with people downloading stuff illegally to see if they like it. So I'm pretty flexible really. If people do like it, it's wrong not to pay for it.

It's not a trivial distinction which is why there are laws that deal with theft and other laws that deal with copyright infringement.

And there are laws about defrauding people you are contracturally obliged to pay. Legally, it's totally not a trivial distinction - but I'm not talking about the law.

[BIL]

I have referred to the posts of several people

Yes, but you keep replying to me, and thus your posts are entirely worthless. Still waiting for you to point out those "moral arguments" I supposedly put forth.

The last time I checked, I'm not the one who's had to resort to making childish remarks while you indeed have. Just sayin'

Oh no, I hope I don't fail to present a paragon of maturity while posting on this videogame forum! Refer back to "intellectual insecurity."

While eagerly awaiting the every response of an idiot and replying to him every chance you get almost immediately after it comes up. You can say what you want about me, but you're one who feels it's important to give the time of day to someone who lacks any and all intelligence.

Of course I can reply immediately, your posts are miles off the mark and all I need to do is point that out. I already said this is recreation, it's a lazy afternoon and that it's amusing to watch you flail away at a person who doesn't exist, how much clearer can I make it that this entire exchange is a joke?

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

CD burners were about £200 ($350) back then in the UK. Discs were several quid each as well.

Well the stuff was affordable in the US. I had a friend of a friend who would bring his DC stuff over every once in a while and I remember one day he showed up with a bunch of burned games.

[JJXB]

People like the ones in this thread who pirate games and play roms are the reasons that the two greatest ever consoles were destroyed.

Neo Geo and Dreamcast.

Dreamcast is a fatal casualty, so ahead of its time with amazing mostly 60fps VGA games and destroyed by brassic people burning copies of the games. People like you are responsible not only for the death of dreamcast but the death of sega.

WELL DONE and enjoy your roms.

...you sir are wrong.

Neogeo's primary failure factor was the fact it was heavily overpriced. The PS3 in it's early days suffered in the same way (note: back when piracy on the PS3 was NOT possible). that and the fact it was such a niche system for the majority of people. because if you apply your logic to other systems that failed, it simply does not work. what else fell into the overpriced niche? the 3DO, Jaguar, and many other consoles. Of course the Neo Geo was a metric fucktonne better than most other overpriced niche consoles but that does not mean it didn't belong in the overpriced niche market.

the dreamcast's primary failure? Too far ahead of it's time. and as a result, Sega ended up not getting a lot of third party support due to the fact that many third parties invested in other "advanced" consoles in the past and got burned. and that made them think twice on something like the dreamcast. you must be naive to believe that being able to play burned games was what killed the system since it took time to learn how to read the games from the GD-Rom format before you could burn it in the first place. and then you have the Mode2 burning issues. so unless someone could be bothered learning HOW to burn dreamcast games, then maybe only half of the dreamcast owners had the means and knowledge to burn said games since it involved more than using nero and clicking "burn". and even taking THAT into account, there's also the fact that sony released the PS2 in such a fashion that it quickly overshadowed the dreamcast. you can hardly blame piracy for the fact the dreamcast was too far ahead of it's time and how the PS2 overshadowed it.
(I say this stuff being an avid dreamcast fan and owning at least 20 legitimate games. will provide picture proof if you don't believe me.)

and if piracy killed some consoles, how come the PS1 and PS2 got so popular? piracy was rampant on both systems and developers STILL made games for them. same with the 360. piracy is rampant on there too and it's still impossible to call it a "failure".
so piracy does not kill systems. it's many other factors that kills a system.

Note: I am not claiming that piracy is in any way, shape or form legal. I am clarifying facts that Defected78 does not seem to grasp.

[cools]

NeoGeo was destroyed? It had releases over a timespan of 14 years...

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

NeoGeo was destroyed? It had releases over a timespan of 14 years...

They went bankrupt in 2001 at which time I believe some employees pointed the finger at emulation and later resurrected with Playmore buying the games' rights, and Playmore was ex-SNK employees. Kind of sounds fishy to be honest, like going bankrupt just means you have to change your name and pay a fee.

[JJXB]

NeoGeo was destroyed? It had releases over a timespan of 14 years...

you have a point there now i think about it more. though compared to most consoles, it was still a "commercial failure". The fact that the neo geo still had games made for that long though just goes to show what a dedicated fanbase can accomplish. so in either count, Defected78's point has been disproved.

[mizuiroRSG]

NeoGeo was destroyed? It had releases over a timespan of 14 years...

They went bankrupt in 2001 at which time I believe some employees pointed the finger at emulation and later resurrected as Playmore buying the games' rights, and Playmore was ex-SNK employees. Kind of sounds fishy to be honest, like going bankrupt just means you have to change your name and pay a fee.

Fixed

[Horacechin]

People like the ones in this thread who pirate games and play roms are the reasons that the two greatest ever consoles were destroyed.

Neo Geo and Dreamcast.

Dreamcast is a fatal casualty, so ahead of its time with amazing mostly 60fps VGA games and destroyed by brassic people burning copies of the games. People like you are responsible not only for the death of dreamcast but the death of sega.

WELL DONE and enjoy your roms.

The PS2 destroyed the DC

[RNGmaster]

Torquay was also the setting for the classic British comedy Fawlty Towers - I highly recommend it! (the series, not the place - I've never been, but I hear it's lovely!)

Fawlty Towers is my favorite show ever.

You are truly a master of quote tags.

Quote tags are shmups forum's version of acne. They're harmless but rather ugly, and everyone breaks out in them at about their 13th post or so.

[drunkninja24]

People like the ones in this thread who pirate games and play roms are the reasons that the two greatest ever consoles were destroyed.

Neo Geo and Dreamcast.

Dreamcast is a fatal casualty, so ahead of its time with amazing mostly 60fps VGA games and destroyed by brassic people burning copies of the games. People like you are responsible not only for the death of dreamcast but the death of sega.

WELL DONE and enjoy your roms.

The PS2 destroyed the DC

Pretty much this. I think some people forget just how ridiculously massive the PS2 hype was. Out of all the friends I had back then, only a handful owned a Dreamcast, the rest held out for PS2 because of shit like "OMG TOY STORY GRAPHICS IN REALTIME".

[BIL]

Fawlty Towers is my favorite show ever.

[Sumez]

Kind of sounds fishy to be honest, like going bankrupt just means you have to change your name and pay a fee.

Welcom to the real world

[IseeThings]

NeoGeo was destroyed? It had releases over a timespan of 14 years...

you have a point there now i think about it more. though compared to most consoles, it was still a "commercial failure". The fact that the neo geo still had games made for that long though just goes to show what a dedicated fanbase can accomplish. so in either count, Defected78's point has been disproved.

Except the NeoGeo wasn't primarily a console, a version was sold AS a console, but the primary market was the arcades where it definitely wasn't a commercial failure.

It was old and cheap hardware compared to most other arcade systems, even when it came out (Sega etc. were starting to move to 32-bit systems) so I'm guessing was built and sold at a profit, to practically every arcade in the world.

It's main strength was the ROM capacity, but this made cartridges rather expensive (although no doubt still sold at a profit)

I think the NeoGeo's success was also it's downfall, arcades didn't want to replace it, they had a large number of cartridges they could choose from, many older ones available cheap.

In the end the NeoGeo was competing with itself. Ops didn't really see the point in buying new games, which were almost all rehashed versions of old games when they could still make a profit out of a wide selection of games already on the platform. SNK's attempts to replace the platform with others (like the HNG64) were a huge failure (their own inability to shift into the 3D Market in terms of game quality, and the fact that older 3D systems start to look dated more quickly didn't help them)

For the home market, there were ports on many platforms, which in the Playstation era sold as well as anything else. They tried other home systems with the NeoCD (too slow loading) and NGPC (as a non-nintendo handheld it didn't stand a chance) which almost certainly both cost them dear.

So in the end they were left with a only 14 year old system, huge arcade install base, but a basically saturated market. Their IP was starting to seem rather dated compared to the competition and no longer impressive when ported to home systems They have had no viable home systems, minimal experience in making more modern games, and a bunch of debts from failed attempts to modernize.

Hardly surprising they went bankrupt, even if you don't factor in any kind of piracy at all.

It's a similar reason all the big companies want to kill off the 2nd hand market, it's a far bigger 'threat' to their sales than piracy is, because it allows people to buy many many games at low cost, and with long life systems that leads to eventual saturation of the market, especially in a market where there is no real innovation (today's market is very much like the NeoGeo in that sense, it's just cookie cutter stuff and sequel after sequel, cheaper to kill used sales than innovate)

This is also why Cave are looking to expand into other areas IMHO, they don't want to be left behind being a company who only produce 2D shooters, and only have experience producing shooters. SNK might have stuck to what they were good at, but eventually there was no market for it.

(Note, some of the licensed NeoGeo compilations done by Mega Enterprise, who also made Metal Slug 4, were actually just using a hacked up version of MAME without permission but paying a licensee fee to SNK for their titles... )

[mjclark]

Torquay was also the setting for the classic British comedy Fawlty Towers - I highly recommend it! (the series, not the place - I've never been, but I hear it's lovely!)

Fawlty Towers is my favorite show ever

Torquay is lovely and we used to live just round the corner from the Gleneagles Hotel which is what Fawlty towers was based on. Next month me and my son are going to see a stage production of the series too
If any of you do ever come to Torquay PM me and come round for a nice cup of tea and some XII Stag

[RNGmaster]

It's a similar reason all the big companies want to kill off the 2nd hand market, it's a far bigger 'threat' to their sales than piracy is, because it allows people to buy many many games at low cost, and with long life systems that leads to eventual saturation of the market, especially in a market where there is no real innovation (today's market is very much like the NeoGeo in that sense, it's just cookie cutter stuff and sequel after sequel, cheaper to kill used sales than innovate)

Here's the real problem, folks. If anything, digital distribution is the way to go, since money goes directly to the producers and the distributors, with no middleman like GameStop sucking up everything.

[IseeThings]

It's a similar reason all the big companies want to kill off the 2nd hand market, it's a far bigger 'threat' to their sales than piracy is, because it allows people to buy many many games at low cost, and with long life systems that leads to eventual saturation of the market, especially in a market where there is no real innovation (today's market is very much like the NeoGeo in that sense, it's just cookie cutter stuff and sequel after sequel, cheaper to kill used sales than innovate)

Here's the real problem, folks. If anything, digital distribution is the way to go, since money goes directly to the producers and the distributors, with no middleman like GameStop sucking up everything.

So you're siding with the industry here?

I like a physical product, and one that has value, that I can resell if I want to resell. I feel this to be a basic right.

I'll buy some games new, and some used, I find the way companies are crippling used copies (must pay another fee to re-activate the game for online play etc.) disgusting. The product has been paid for, the company has earned it's money from it. Just because it has a new owner instead of sitting on a shelf gathering dust doesn't change that, and it keeps the online community active (but they don't want that, they only want people playing the latest games hence why all the servers are remote and all games require a central server now)

These 'solutions' are just ways around actually delivering new & innovative products, taking risks etc. Instead of allowing consumer choice they force people to have the latest games, bought new, if they want downloadable content, online play etc. etc. They purposely devalue the actual product the customer has paid for by locking it to them. It's just the whole 'games as a service' thing bundled up in a different way.

Yes, the industry have recognized that the 2nd hand market is just as damaging to them than piracy (if not more), but it's legal, and if for a moment you think that killing it off is somehow going to lead to lower prices, or better games then think again. It's all about control, and being able to sell the same thing over and over again as new. Also, treating people who are taking the legal route like pirates is only going to lead to them feeling more like they may as well have pirated the software in the first place.

If an industry can't actually innovate in their field without resorting to artificial measures, they should deservedly die. Sure SNK might have been saved if playing old NeoGeo games required a subscription and activation fee every time the cart was transferred to a new owner, but I'd hardly consider that fair, it's making money without actually doing anything new or producing any new items at cost. Money for nothing, which is why the industry love the idea so much.

For the record, I don't own any pirated console games for current systems (XB360, Wii, PS3), nor have any mods made to any of my consoles which would allow such. Should practices like the ones I've outlined continue then that may well change with the next generation.

[moozooh]

Excellent post Haze, I couldn't agree more.

[mjclark]

I find the way companies are crippling used copies (must pay another fee to re-activate the game for online play etc.) disgusting. The product has been paid for, the company has earned it's money from it. Just because it has a new owner instead of sitting on a shelf gathering dust doesn't change that, and it keeps the online community active (but they don't want that, they only want people playing the latest games hence why all the servers are remote and all games require a central server now)

Not only is it disgusting but also unnecessary and EA Games are a good exception to this practice.
I bought a second hand copy of NFS Hot Pursuit which had a used licence key. Once customer support had established that I had a legit physical disc they just issued us a new working key for free (as they'd done a few years previously for a second hand copy of Most Wanted). They'll get their money back through downloadable content now and we can play online without feeling ripped off.
Having a good relationship with customers rather than treating them all as potential criminals is a much better way to maximise revenue and it's a pity that CAVE et al don't try to cultivate friendly relations with their small but loyal occidental fanbase.

[moozooh]

I can't say they don't try. For a niche Japanese developer they are, they've definitely done a lot to gauge our opinions and please us with various extras (even if somewhat misguided, like the lack of slowdown in the US DeathSmiles port, which was Cave's initiative). It's probably way better illustrated by their iOS division.

[emphatic]

I fully agree with ISeeThings' post. Very insightful. The only argument IMHO, how MAME, downloaded game iso-files etc. has a negative monetary impact on production houses is how the abundance of "free games" take up so much of the possible consumer's time that new purchases to play is for me realistically out of the question. Even with the second hand market. I own all CAVE and a few other releases for the 360, so I don't *have* to buy any more games really, as I have yet to master the ones already sitting in my book case. I own several arcade PCB's as well, but I rarely touch more than a few of them as I just don't have the time (unless I have friends over).

[IseeThings]

I fully agree with ISeeThings' post. Very insightful. The only argument IMHO, how MAME, downloaded game iso-files etc. has a negative monetary impact on production houses is how the abundance of "free games" take up so much of the possible consumer's time that new purchases to play is for me realistically out of the question. Even with the second hand market. I own all CAVE and a few other releases for the 360, so I don't *have* to buy any more games really, as I have yet to master the ones already sitting in my book case. I own several arcade PCB's as well, but I rarely touch more than a few of them as I just don't have the time (unless I have friends over).

Yes, that's the problem the industry see, if they produce something people want to keep playing, that has enough depth to keep people interested for a long time then they're less likely to go out and buy something new, because they're preoccupied with what they already have.

Making a good game, for this reason, doesn't make financial sense. The industry have to put out games with a limited lifespan if they want people to keep buying new ones, which is at odds with the concept of creating a game which is timeless, requires real skill to master, and can be played over and over due to it's sheer quality and/or varying experiences each time.

However, you can't really pin that on emulation or piracy. Even without emulation you can pick an old PSX and hundreds of games up for next to nothing, I know people who can't work through various disabilities (and thus have almost no income) who've done exactly that. They don't see what the big deal is with the new games, because they have an entire collection they can play already.

The music industry faces similar problems, with such a vast library of great old music out there which can be had for nothing, how do you sell something new? Movies likewise (and face it, modern games are just movies where you play bits)

If things aren't sustainable then you have to look at your business model, if games are costing so much to make, and yet people are still wanting to play old ones then maybe you're missing something, and not actually taking advantage of new technology to provide anything but better audio and visuals? Maybe you need a way to develop better games, at lower cost? That's pretty much how the entire indie / casual games market has sprung up.

Years ago your triple A titles covered a wide variety of genres, gaming was maybe considered more geeky. These days it's rare if the top selling game isn't some kind of 1st/3rd person shooter/beat-em-up style game following some movie-like script and possibly a multiplayer element, or a 'realistic' sports game for one of a select few popular sports. This also puts the mainstream console games industry in a corner, when only one type of game being 'popular' they're competing in a far more limited market. Can you really imagine the next major console release, hyped up everywhere, and advertised on TV to be a pure puzzle game in the form of Lemmings, or a pure shooter like Cave titles? The closest mainstream thing lately was LittleBigPlanet, and a lot of people shunned that as a kiddie game (which shows the problem is two-fold, a large chunk of players now expect games where they don't have to think)

The problem is, instead of actually trying to do something new, finding ways to promote it, and tackling the problem directly the mainstream industry would rather tackle the symptom of the problem, which is people wanting to buy older games, at lower cost, 2nd hand, a desire which is being driven by the low overall game 'value' of recent high budget, expensive games.

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

You can sugarcoat your piracy by pirating material and proceeding to purchase it afterwards, but this is absurdly illogical considering you're using piracy as a medium of decision.

Could you explain that in greater detail... the way it's there on the page in front of me it doesn't make any sense at all.

[captpain]

Did you guys finish solving all of this?