XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Fudoh]

I'll do a comparison of course. From my initial test I would say 240p to 1080p is the same as on the XRGB-3, but 480p to 1080p looks more processed on the Mini. It's cleaner on the 3.

[wildchild22]

Seeing it uses hdmi can how would it be in a home theater for video processing?

Does it handle dts-ma and dolby truehd? I cannot read japanese so I cannot tell from the manual?

[Fudoh]

Seeing it uses hdmi can how would it be in a home theater for video processing?

The mini uses the Marvell QDEO Kyoto G2, the same processor used in the Oppo BDP-93. It's clearly tailored for videogames though. For the moment I can't any huge differences in the various processing modes.

Does it handle dts-ma and dolby truehd? I cannot read japanese so I cannot tell from the manual?

I don't see it mentioned anywhere. I would assume no.

[wildchild22]

Hi there if you do get a chance3 can you check to see if it handles dts-ma and dolby truehd. I am sort of looking for a "swiss army knife" scaler for gaming and movies. Something that can downconvert 1080p@60hz and output 1080i@60hz.

I am quessing either this or the edge.

Seeing it uses hdmi can how would it be in a home theater for video processing?

The mini uses the Marvell QDEO Kyoto G2, the same processor used in the Oppo BDP-93. It's clearly tailored for videogames though. For the moment I can't any huge differences in the various processing modes.

Does it handle dts-ma and dolby truehd? I cannot read japanese so I cannot tell from the manual?

I don't see it mentioned anywhere. I would assume no.

[Fudoh]

Some more early observations:

- settings seem to be saved on a per input AND per signal type basis, so you can have different settings for 240p YUV and 480i YUV.
- unfortunately there's a little visible noise in the background on the PS2's component signal. Not as bad as on the XRGB-3 without LPF, but not as good as on the XRGB-3 with LPF.
- 720x480 is recognized but not seen as 4:3. You have to change between the different Aspect Ratio and zoom settings a lot.

- there's a chroma delay bug on the red channel for 480p signals. This is what causes the 480p image to look slightly blurry. It's not there on 240p and it's (most times) not there on 480i either. I was able to trigger it once on a 480i signal, but not again since. It's always there on 480p component input (tested PS2 only so far). The delay is about half a (source-)pixel to the left.

- the scanlines move vertically when the image position is adjusted vertically. Unfortunately the scanlines for 480i sources are "on the wrong" lines (odd instead of even or the other way around) and the position can't be changed yet. SLG3000 users know what I mean by this...

V-Sync seems to be on by default and is probably turned off when the source is too far from 60Hz. The status screens show the exact input timing (e.g. 59.81 for a PS2 with a PS1 game), but the output just shows 60Hz V-locked. I also don't get the delay information (yet). It ranges from 1.03ms for 240p source on 480p output, over 1.60ms for 240p on 720p output. It totally fluctuates on 1080p output. I first assumed that the 1. was something else and 03ms was the total delay (=3ms), but sometimes it shows 1.80ms and it clearly not a delay or 80ms. On the other hand, the delay with PROPER 480i deinterlacing stays at about the same level, so I don't really know if the info screen can be trusted on this one.

The scaling engine can be adjusted manually. There are three presets (off, game, video). Off allow manual adjustment for the hortizontal and vertical scaling. There's a sweetspot (which is already chosen for the game preset) and it gets rather blurry when you increase the settings. The sharpness setting is what I actually expected from the Oppo. A bit of blue on zero. Nice on 1 and 2, but with higher settings (up to 32) the artefacts become visible quite fast. I like 2 for 480p output and 1 for 720p output.

Despite any bugs or moaning so far, it's a very nice little toy. It's especially refreshing how easy is to use. Analogue audio integration into HDMI is a big step up from the XRGB-3 and there's very little adjustment needed in the first place to make the picture look great already.

[Fudoh]

if you do get a chance3 can you check to see if it handles dts-ma and dolby truehd

I can't, sorry. I have a source, but I don't have amp which can accept, so I have no place to route the signals to check it they work.

I am quessing either this or the edge.

Edge - for the missing 1080p24 functionality alone.

[Fudoh]

continued:

- standard settings mimic DVI inputs on the mini's HDMI ports. This causes systems like the 360 not to transmit any audio via HDMI. The EDID mode on the mini has to be set to HDMI. After a reboot the 360 delivers audio.
- sharpness setting is ULGY on 720p sources. Has to be left at 0. By adjusting the H/V scaling options you can adjust the sharpness for HD inputs to your liking.
- Otherwise 360 looks and feels nice through the Mini. Just played a round of Futari and Sonic CD (and noticed that Sonic CD supports real 4:3 when the 360 is set to 4:3 output).

[Fudoh]

[Fudoh]

Super Famicom:

tested with a 1990-built SFC. Original Nintendo RGB cable (japanese). Works PERFECTLY with V-Sync. No noise, no shakiness, not sync dropouts on white. Perfect.

PC Engine:

tested with a Core Grafx 1 with suitcase CD addon. Composite works (with V-Sync). UNBOOSTED RGB works as well (but to dark of course and hardly correctable). Boosted RGB does not work. drops out completely with V-Sync and less often without V-Sync. I swear I'll get this fixed. Seems to be the booster amp after all. Duo units should be fine with V-Sync all the way !

[Fudoh]

PC Engine Update:

CoreGrafx > UNBOOSTED RGB cable > EXTERNAL Booster + Sync Stripper > XRGB-Mini = Scanlined HDMI PC Engine Goodness

For this alone I'm totally sold. I'll try to get some expertise if it's the different booster amp or the stripper which causes the PCE to work fine now.

[Hamburglar]

haha, ok. Despite any flaws, the combination of a XRGB-3 and a DVDO Edge is powerful combo.

Right now would you say an XRGB-3 and Edge is better than a Frame Meister and an Edge?

[Fudoh]

Right now would you say an XRGB-3 and Edge is better than a Frame Meister and an Edge?

to close to call. The Mini is fine for 240p and so is the XRGB-3. And since you would run 480i and 480p through the Edge anyway, it wouldn't matter how the XRGBs perform on those.

But please remember that I was very happy with the Edge and SLG already, so if you have an Edge already (and for the sake of a simplified setup I might chose Edge + HDF + SLG if I liked scanlines and if my TV had a VGA input).

[SGGG2]

The Mini is fine for 240p and so is the XRGB-3. And since you would run 480i and 480p through the Edge anyway, it wouldn't matter how the XRGBs perform on those.

Gonna have to stick up for B0 here. *Some* 480p titles (native or forced), I think the best example's Gradius V, look unbelievably sharp and stunning at 1080p, way better than even the HD3000. Other titles benefit from a softer and/or more accurate scaling engine like the Edge or Optoma. The downside's you might have to feed the XRGB-3's signal into a DVDO Edge (lol) if your TV won't see it...

Which has got me thinking... can the mini help make B0 @ 1080p compatible with more TV's?

[Konsolkongen]

continued:
- standard settings mimic DVI inputs on the mini's HDMI ports. This causes systems like the 360 not to transmit any audio via HDMI. The EDID mode on the mini has to be set to HDMI. After a reboot the 360 delivers audio.

Sorry if this is a stupid question. But looking at the remote, does that mean that HDMI inputs doesn't support RGB colorspace? And do you have to manually switch to HDMI everytime you play 360?

Also, if the Mini support scanlines on 480p content, can it be used to add scanlines to Deathsmiles if you set the 360 to 480p? And how would that look?

[Fudoh]

Which has got me thinking... can the mini help make B0 @ 1080p compatible with more TV's?

The Mini' 1080p output looks very much like the XRGB-3's B0 mode in 1080p, so there's no reason to chain them up.

But looking at the remote, does that mean that HDMI inputs doesn't support RGB colorspace?

The HDMI and DVI mode buttons chose the output mode. Has nothing to do with the inputs.

Also, if the Mini support scanlines on 480p content, can it be used to add scanlines to Deathsmiles if you set the 360 to 480p? And how would that look?

Scanlines don't work on digital inputs. If you connect the 360 through component it works. Looks fine, just like the SLG3000, but without density control, without the ability to switch between odd and even lines and only with 480p and 720p output from the Mini.

[Friendly]

Does Frame Meister G2 have any real advantage over the Ligawo upscaler other than scanline support?

quality, man, quality. I've had a bunch of the larger Ligawo units here for review and they were (in part) so bad that I didn't even care to put a review online. If you don't care for quality and just want a Scart RGB input on your TV, then it may be fine, but if you actually want to surpass your TV's own processing, then you need something better.

I don't doubt your experiences and you seem to be pretty knowledgeable, but this specific Ligawo scaler (which I assume you have not tested) is actually pretty good. I bought it so I could connect my old RGB game systems to my video projector, which naturally doesn't have an RGB scart socket.







It's awesome to play those games on a huge projection screen. It looks even better in reality (better contast/sharpness), I had to take those photos in the dark. There are no dropped frames, no snyc problems and there is no discernable lag (= you can play shooters just fine). At least on my projector, 1080p looks better than 720p.

Like I wrote before, the only problem I encountered is with my Famicom's RGB booster, but from what you've said about your PC Engine's RGB booster, it would probably be exactly the same with a Frame Meister G2. What can I do to reduce signal strength?

[RGB32E]

I don't doubt your experiences and you seem to be pretty knowledgeable, but this specific Ligawo scaler (which I assume you have not tested) is actually pretty good. I bought it so I could connect my old RGB game systems to my video projector, which naturally doesn't have an RGB scart socket.

Looks like you should start a new thread for this Ligawo scaler instead of posting about it on this thread!

[Konsolkongen]

Fudoh, how do you think the Mini will perform with my new Saturn, which looks great with LPF on but has horrible jailbars without?

EDIT: I should mention that there are no jailbars when connecting the Saturn to my TV directly.

I'm seriously thinking about ordering one in January, if it turns out it works with a consolised MVS too, I'm sold for sure

[SGGG2]

Fudoh, how do you think the Mini will perform with my new Saturn, which looks great with LPF on but has horrible jailbars without?

Haha, you got a Skeleton Saturn, right? Mine has the same problem.

[Konsolkongen]

LOL seriously?

Yes I got a skeleton:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... nandhz.jpg

What motherboard revision is yours, if you can remember?

EDIT: I also had to add a cap or resistor (both worked fine) to use C.sync on this machine. If I didn't there was very large shadows in the picture. I ended up using a 220uF cap myself, but a 10, 22 or 75ohm resistor seemed to work just as good.

EDIT2: You are using composite as sync?

[Zapf]

So wait, does the xrgb mini do processing on the hdmi ports? Can I have it just be a simple passthrough?

[Fudoh]

The HDMI ports are processed, but with a basically non-existent delay, why would care about passthrough vs. processing ?

[neo max]

@ Fudoh (greetings from Triggerzone)

Is there a slight chance that you can compare the input lag of the Framemeister with a CRT-Monitor? This is actually my most important value when it comes to the Framemeister's performance. I play mostly fighting games and shmups, but I can't stand any kind of input lag (above 2f = no go).

Comparison with a Neo Geo and a PS2 game (480i/480p) would be awesome

[Zapf]

I just like the way xbox 360 looks on my tv right now, and I have pretty much 1 hdmi port to use on the tv (second one is used for my sound bar, third is on the side), so I was hoping to just use it as an extra port.

[Fudoh]

continued...

Mega Drive: PERFECT

I have a japanese MD1. Stereo-OP amp mod, sync cable with capacitor, NOT the new mod with the lifted pin on the graphics chip. There is NOT even the slightest hint of any jailbars or shakiness. Just perfect. Fully v-sync locked.

[Fudoh]

continued...

Saturn: PERFECT

tested with a Hitachi model 1 Saturn. Original Japanese RGB cables (which uses composite video, not raw sync). If I can get my model 2 saturn out of storage, I'll give it a try as well, but I can't promise.

[fagin]

STOP wasting time posting on here. It will delay the full review, which is what we're all really after!!!

[Konsolkongen]

Holy f...ing shit! This is thing is looking better and better

[SGGG2]

What motherboard revision is yours, if you can remember?

I'll see if I can take it apart and get under the shielding this sunday...

You are using composite as sync?

Yeah, when I use raw sync I get this:


.

.
I tried a modded PAL cable and a pure sync one from Retro Accessories, but no luck. I thought I burned off a pin trying to install a modchip but it's actually okay, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Composite sync looks fine except for the jailbars.

[RGB32E]

Is this with a XRGB-3 or a XRGB-mini?

What motherboard revision is yours, if you can remember?

I'll see if I can take it apart and get under the shielding this sunday...

You are using composite as sync?

Yeah, when I use raw sync I get this:


.

.
I tried a modded PAL cable and a pure sync one from Retro Accessories, but no luck. I thought I burned off a pin trying to install a modchip but it's actually okay, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Composite sync looks fine except for the jailbars.