Japanese gaming is dead

[Drum]

Some may disagree, but for me one of the only modern games (non Nintendo casual style) that had perfect global appeal while retaining it's unique Japanese-ness was Resident Evil 4.
Resi was always western influenced in theme, but quintessentially Japanese in craft and design. Resi 4 really was a trendsetter and a pioneer of a whole new world of adventure gaming, with more cinematic qualities and depth than just about anything in the genre ever since. But it walked the line perfectly, being an exercise in design by Capcom's finest and making few of the concessions made by it's underrated (but certainly more westernised) sequel.

Western companies who turn out quality games in the adventure genre (FPS's really, Halo and GOW) know how to create great, cinematic games, but compared to the intricacy of Resi 4 they're plainly simple affairs.

LOL... did you just hint that RE4 is better than GoW 1 or 2? ...

He actually was pretty careful not to do that to the point of mincing words, but if he did that would be an uncontroversial and entirely respectable opinion deserving of warm praise and sexy backrubs.
That you actually think it was something to single out as LOL-worthy in a thread filled with preposterous bullshit says some very, very unfortunate things about you personally.

[Skykid]

LOL... did you just hint that RE4 is better than GoW 1 or 2? ...

Completely, Resi 4 is totally superior. If you don't know that, then you haven't played it.

And I like GoW quite a bit, for the record.

[Vyxx]

LOL... did you just hint that RE4 is better than GoW 1 or 2? ...

Completely, Resi 4 is totally superior. If you don't know that, then you haven't played it.

And I like GoW quite a bit, for the record.

THIS.

Although I think the GoW series is crap.

[Obiwanshinobi]

For my money Mercenaries are the only outstanding feature of RE4. As for the main mode, its first half or so is embarrassingly easy (very few games made me feel so sorry about my enemies) and the aftertaste of it never quite diminishes. Professional is a bit better for that matter, but QTE really annoyed me in this mode (and I don't even wanna think how annoying Professional would be without Ashley's armour). The settings are nothing special, at least in the graphically downgraded PS2 version, but I liked some monster designs and animations (this could be expected of Capcom, though). I also liked how the Spanish castle looked like a real thing (quite remarkable for a Japanese game). Long story short, everything good about RE4 is in Mercenaries. The main course - which you have to clear before accessing superior modes, mind you - is ill balanced patchwork. As the whole package (all modes and unlockable content) I'd place it on the exact same last gen shelf with The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay (the PC version) and GoW, i.e. solid, replayable action games getting better in their second halves, but not to the point of erasing the initial "style over substance" impression of mine completely.
Frankly, even that XIII game on the PC (reportedly console versions are not as good due to the controls) had higher points than RE4 in my book (although that was also a patchwork of a game; in places it's just a trivial me-too FPS). Even Rouge Trooper (PC version for me, the controls etc.) felt more eventful right off the bat. I just fail to see RE4 as a groundbreaking action adventure game. Fine, slow-paced shooter and precious little more.

[Skykid]

Forget the PS2 version exists. The Gamecube version benefits both from having head-spinning graphics and environments and a much more comfortable control scheme. Anyone thinking of buying the PS2 version I suggest go and spend the money on a 2nd hand Cube instead and buy it on that (and not on the Wii either, the challenge was built around the limitations of the original control setup, much like GoW in-fact.)

I don't want to get into a debate about why Resi4 is great, it almost feels like a waste of breath when its already a given.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Some may disagree, but for me one of the only modern games (non Nintendo casual style) that had perfect global appeal while retaining it's unique Japanese-ness was Resident Evil 4.
Resi was always western influenced in theme, but quintessentially Japanese in craft and design. Resi 4 really was a trendsetter and a pioneer of a whole new world of adventure gaming, with more cinematic qualities and depth than just about anything in the genre ever since. But it walked the line perfectly, being an exercise in design by Capcom's finest and making few of the concessions made by it's underrated (but certainly more westernised) sequel.

Western companies who turn out quality games in the adventure genre (FPS's really, Halo and GOW) know how to create great, cinematic games, but compared to the intricacy of Resi 4 they're plainly simple affairs.

LOL... did you just hint that RE4 is better than GoW 1 or 2? ...

RE4 is awesome. I would say better than GOW 1 or 2, although I don't see much point comparing them.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Forget the PS2 version exists. The Gamecube version benefits both from having head-spinning graphics and environments and a much more comfortable control scheme. Anyone thinking of buying the PS2 version I suggest go and spend the money on a 2nd hand Cube instead and buy it on that (and not on the Wii either, the challenge was built around the limitations of the original control setup, much like GoW in-fact.)

I don't want to get into a debate about why Resi4 is great, it almost feels like a waste of breath when its already a given.

I've played through it several times for both PS2 and Wii. I liked it a lot on the Wii actually. One of the few Wii games I ever played that it made sense to have the motion controls for. Although probably easier being able to pop off head shots with the wii mote.

Merc Mode Rules Too

[Obiwanshinobi]

Er... There is nothing wrong with the RE4 controls on the PS2 as far as I can tell (at least I don't have any complaints in this regard), and while I intend to get myself a GameCube (or Wii) at some point, I don't believe RE4 to be even 50% better on it. Prettier perheps, but I don't suck for this kind of graphics that much anyway.

[Skykid]

I've played through it several times for both PS2 and Wii. I liked it a lot on the Wii actually. One of the few Wii games I ever played that it made sense to have the motion controls for. Although probably easier being able to pop off head shots with the wiimote.

It is easier. It doesn't harm the experience really, but the fact that Leon was slow to turn and the limitations placed on his movement were designed purposely to induce both challenge and heightened tension in the game. For my money that makes the original setup the most worthwhile (and you don't have to keep pointing at the screen all the time, which feels a little gimmicky in RE4.)

Er... There is nothing wrong with the RE4 controls on the PS2 as far as I can tell (at least I don't have any complaints in this regard), and while I intend to get myself a GameCube (or Wii) at some point, I don't believe RE4 to be even 50% better on it. Prettier perheps, but I don't suck for this kind of graphics that much anyway.

It may not be 50% better, but it's better no-doubt. It was designed around the GC controller, so that's where it feels most at home. PS2 pads suck anyway, the analogue sticks lack decent sensitivity and the console's graphics are papery compared to the GC's solid environments.

[dunpeal2064]

I remember the ps2 version adding a lot of new content though. The only reason I went with the gc version was to give my gc some play time. Ikaruga and Chaos Field are the only games it ever sees. Did the same thing with Killer 7

[Obiwanshinobi]

I don't want to get into a debate about why Resi4 is great, it almost feels like a waste of breath when its already a given.

Yeah, you are sent to a remote village to exterminate a bunch of inbred people who are too slow and emaciated by some sickness to pose any threat. What's next? The adventures of an SS platoon during a ghetto extermination? GTA almost went there, but at least in GTA cops arrive and they mean business. There's no such a thing in RE4.

[Skykid]

I don't want to get into a debate about why Resi4 is great, it almost feels like a waste of breath when its already a given.

Yeah, you are sent to a remote village to exterminate a bunch of inbred people who are too slow and emaciated by some sickness to pose any threat. What's next? The adventures of an SS platoon during a ghetto extermination? GTA almost went there, but at least in GTA cops arrive and they mean business. There's no such a thing in RE4.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Save your breath.

[dcharlie]

(and not on the Wii either, the challenge was built around the limitations of the original control setup, much like GoW in-fact.)

GoW's challenge is built around the limitations of the controls?! Go on, let's hear it.

For the record - i think GoW1 is an okay single player game/good multi/good coop and GoW2 is an above average single player/average multi/excellent coop

[neorichieb1971]

Sounds like your talking about Gears, when I think they are talking God of War. Might be wrong though.

[Skykid]

Both Resi 4 and Gears of War have restrictions of movement in place purposely. Leon's aiming reticle is intentionally slow and the perspective means you always need to be on your toes as you can't see much peripherally. I remember reading an interview with Mikami where he specifically explained the reasons they did this, but then you only need to play the game (and RE5 too) to see how said restrictions are no accident.

Now, GoW...that's Gears of War, right, not God of War! I'm talking about Gears, no idea what everyone else is talking about, and in Gears the sluggishness of movement of the character is also intentional so that the requirement to use cover is more necessary. You can't often pop out and use nimble movement to avoid getting gunned down.

[Vyxx]

Now, GoW...that's Gears of War, right, not God of War! I'm talking about Gears, no idea what everyone else is talking about, and in Gears the sluggishness of movement of the character is also intentional so that the requirement to use cover is more necessary. You can't often pop out and use nimble movement to avoid getting gunned down.

Yeah but Gears of War is basically

- Enemy Spotted
- Knee High wall or debree magically appears
- Repeat

Seriously, the cover system in GoW is lame

[Obiwanshinobi]

Aiming and movement are slow in shooters with analogue stick aiming because analogue stick is imprecise compared to a mouse. From what I know, not a single fast paced shooter with analogue aiming was really successful on consoles (count 'em all: Quake III, Unreal Championship, Tribes Aerial Assault, Quake IV, Unreal Tournament III - maybe I skipped a few). Of course if you stick to a control method ill-suited for the device you're developing for, you must make some explanations why everything in your game moves like a snail on the slope, preferably using words "tactical" and "strategic". This and fremerates being rather low in the likes of Gears mean that twitch shooters are screwed at the moment (and possibly for years to come).
At least RE4 in places actually IS tense, but it comes a wee bit late in the day (Mendez, those charging dudes with attached claws, Right Hand Man, Krauser) and bits where you have to make the most of your agility (walking armours fight) are too sparse for my liking.

[dcharlie]

From what I know, not a single fast paced shooter with analogue aiming was really successful on consoles

depends how you define "successful" - the Serious Sam games made a fairly good switch.

[Skykid]

Now, GoW...that's Gears of War, right, not God of War! I'm talking about Gears, no idea what everyone else is talking about, and in Gears the sluggishness of movement of the character is also intentional so that the requirement to use cover is more necessary. You can't often pop out and use nimble movement to avoid getting gunned down.

Yeah but Gears of War is basically

- Enemy Spotted
- Knee High wall or debree magically appears
- Repeat

Seriously, the cover system in GoW is lame

Ah, I disagree dude, I quite like what Gears brought to the table. When you have a handle on it, the cover system, the restrictions of movement and aiming etc make it a very tactical game, and with different dimensions than a normal FPS. It works very well in multiplayer and I think Epic did a good job of having relatively simple controls, but lots of depth in terms of combat options. It offers more in the way of 'sneak and attack' than an FPS can, because moving between cover gives you a good view of the playing field.

[dcharlie]

GoW shines in Coop - and GoW2 is off the chart excellent in Horde mode. A full 50 level clear run with the wife and brother in law was still one of the most intensely fun gaming experiences i've had.

[Acid King]

GoW shines in Coop - and GoW2 is off the chart excellent in Horde mode. A full 50 level clear run with the wife and brother in law was still one of the most intensely fun gaming experiences i've had.

Agreed. I wasn't a big fan of the single player campaign, but split screen Horde is a lot of fun.

[Skykid]

Inafune is at it again:

http://www.vg247.com/2012/03/08/inafune ... se-minded/

And amusingly enough, Phil Fish (some indie dev) actually told a Japanese developer during a public Q&A "Your games just suck."

http://www.vg247.com/2012/03/07/fez-cre ... s-comment/

Lol!

[Ed Oscuro]

I haven't played GOW yet (maybe one of these days, once I put my two PS2s back together, grease the gears and all that). I did play as much of Rogue Trooper as I could when I had GameTap, though. Some nice looks, a bit blocky, but if I was forced to flatten out the differences (RT being based on a franchise from the louder-than-life 2000 AD book, home to the originals of what are a mostly unfortunate series of arcade, computer, and console game adaptations, and I'm not even getting into that Judge Dredd FPS on PC from about 2004), I would still say that the things RT tries to do that are like RE4, it does less fluently by far. RE4 is very nearly the perfect example of a video game. The only tweaks I would make to RE4 concern replayability, but if we're honest, things like the rather broken Thompson (they could at least have forced magazine reloads, like the recent Half-Life release Cry of Fear does rather intelligently for its infinite ammo unlockable) were extras. Memorizer puzzles were pretty good the first time around, and they probably had little leeway to throw in more enemies for repeat plays in most areas. The only sour note here is the rather damp PC port, which some people had the misfortune of purchasing to experience the game, and the goofy saga of the PS2 port (the ugly extras, the "cut off my own head" debacle, etc.)

I have a lot of respect for 2000 AD but here the difference is El Greco and Baroque styling (which is pretty evident through much of the second third of RE4) versus what is, despite its protestations otherwise, simple mass-marketed consumer culture. In terms of emotional depth and interest, it seems to me that the awkward translations and anime emotion moments of even previous REs were for the most part still less ultraviolet in hue than the usual 2000 AD way of putting things. Even those old REs had a bit going because of the subtlety of tension they often played on. RE2 and RE4 were really quite good at this, and I would say that I preferred playing even less-loved titles like Zero to Rogue Trooper for just this reason.

And in terms of the core gameplay mechanics, RE4 wasn't perfect but it felt somewhat more natural and a bit more fun than RT to me.

[evil_ash_xero]

Phil Fish...OKAY...

Anyway, yeah, the Japanese gaming industry is having major problems. Thing that bothers me though, is that western devs think their stuff is the peak of excellence. And I couldn't disagree more with that. I think the whole industry kind of sucks(overall). I'm sure Phil Fish is mighty happy with all the FPS and whatnot that we churn out, like processed cheese.

Western devs can get all high and mighty as they want to, but I don't think they'll ever hit the highs that the Japs did, back in the day. But I'm sure they disagree. I saw a blog by one of the guys who made Mass Effect 3, and he was asking the question if old games sucked. It seemed as if his opinion was that they did. Well, whatever man.

Unfortunately, there's about a million people, who will pop in the next Modern Warfare, and think it's the greatest game ever made. It's depressing.

It also doesn't help, that the JP games that DO rock, don't sell anywhere near those numbers. Dark Souls and Demon's Souls do well, for their budget, but they are by no means big. Neither is Bayonetta or Valkyria Chronicles. Vanquish and Sin And Punishment 2 were both flops.

Even if they're good, they don't sell.

[Skykid]

I was chatting to a friend today, who also happens to be the developer of Blade Dash that I worked so hard to promote here.

We were saying how fucked up it was that he can create a simple, fresh action game that plays as tight as a touchscreen game possibly can (I'll testify to this too) and presents a highly addictive score challenge to appeal to hardcore gaming sensibilities, and get pretty much no interest: but Lep's World, a shitty flash Mario clone with a leprechaun, shoots straight up the app chart and sells by the bucketload.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQdHtdQhCL8

We spat the exact same conclusion: The average modern consumer is a dumbass.

It's not their fault of course, but they're simply not gamers for the most part. They're a casual collective that will buy brightly coloured, easy looking games, and this is where modern devs are going to. Games are devolving, moving away from the complexity and skill based challenge of Japanese game design and moving more into simplistic, easy to access mush.

It's not even that Blade Dash is complicated: it's not, it's fundamentally basic. But it requires the player to use reflexes and commit to a learning curve in an old-school fashion, something that the likes of Angry Birds, or even an FPS that makes it nearly impossible to die in, do not require.

SFIV is about as big as a fighting game can be these days, but it's not been as dominant on the same scale as SFII was, which stayed at the top of the console charts for a year and shifted consoles by the truckload. Now the industry is too diluted, and the Halos and GTA's achieve sales figures SFIV can only dream of.

The old era is dead, long live indie gaming!

[Casper<3]

I agree. I have no desire to buy the next xbox or ps4 or whatever else. I think when the 360 is done, I'll be done with buying games.

[Ed Oscuro]

At least RE4 in places actually IS tense, but it comes a wee bit late in the day (Mendez, those charging dudes with attached claws, Right Hand Man, Krauser)

I would be remiss to continue to let this go unchallenged: Mendez is a force somewhere inbetween the end of the first third of the game and the first half.

Krauser is just a dick, arrgh, don't remind me of him. "Good, Leon!"

In any case, there's plenty of tension through the game. Maybe you are confusing tension with balls-out difficulty: By the time my third or fourth Professional playthrough rolls around, it's easy to forget that some enemies are dangerous.

and bits where you have to make the most of your agility (walking armours fight) are too sparse for my liking.

Can't please everybody - I think a lot of people would be rather annoyed by the insistence on emphasizing the limitations of agility, actually. It's bad enough to have a slow turn, in other words; make it more pointedly the gameplay design objective and you are going to lose a lot of people for that segment.

[Taylor]

Low-res platformers with chiptunes, infinite lives and a checkpoint every screen will save gaming.

[THE]

We were saying how fucked up it was that he can create a simple, fresh action game that plays as tight as a touchscreen game possibly can (I'll testify to this too) and presents a highly addictive score challenge to appeal to hardcore gaming sensibilities, and get pretty much no interest: but Lep's World, a shitty flash Mario clone with a leprechaun, shoots straight up the app chart and sells by the bucketload.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQdHtdQhCL8

We spat the exact same conclusion: The average modern consumer is a dumbass.

You are probably part of this problem too, or did you bought Fast Striker?
Fast Striker bombed on iOS too. Nobody bought it either.

And neither the MVS version nor the DC version was played/discussed on this forum.
It was mostly ignored. Why is that so?

The fact that forum member MJClark uploaded the ISO on torrent sites didn't help it's sales either. In fact sales dropped like a stone afterwards. A deal with a bigger distributor rescued us here.

I was close before discontinuing DC support for good...