r type 3 vs. thunderforce 4

Regulus · Post by **Regulus** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:07 am

Eh... I liked TF 3 more than 4, personally. And the music was better. 4 did look good, though.

R-Type III, on the other hand, is my favorite shmup of all time. Though the music... was hit or miss. Some of it was awesome (the remixes, mostly, and a the various boss themes), while other parts suck (stage 2 - 4). I don't remember TF4's soundtrack that much.

So yeah. I'm really biased towards R-Type, so my opinion only really counts for my opinion.

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:53 pm

Regulus wrote:Eh... I liked TF 3 more than 4, personally. And the music was better. 4 did look good, though.

This must be one of those things wherein if you played TF3 first, you like it better, whereas if you played TF4 first (like myself) you prefer it. Personally, listening to the music of both games side by side, I don't know how anyone can say TF3's music is better. I think TF4 was more varied, used more complex instrumentation, & made better use of the Genesis/MD sound processor.

As far as the comments about the graphics "just barely" being better in TF4 than in TF3 (before Regulus' post), you guys must be on crack or something. I think the graphics in TF4 are a big leap. Maybe not as large as R-Type II to R-Type III, but certainly an improvement. Everything seems to flow together better, your ship feels like it's in the environments more (instead of just being "pasted" on, like in many shmups), & everything is just more well-designed, IMO.

Yes, I'm a fanboy. Sue me.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:32 pm

TF3's music has more of that 'classic Genesis' feel... it sounds like a videogame. Some like that, some don't.

ghibli99 · Post by **ghibli99** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:08 pm

it290 wrote:TF3's music has more of that 'classic Genesis' feel... it sounds like a videogame. Some like that, some don't.

FWIW, I love it. I think TF3's soundtrack is very "driving" in its attack... a lot more fast-paced songs with that cool-sounding thump of the kick drum in most of the tunes. That Stage 1 song is legendary. When I heard it as part of the Stage 1 music in TF5, I wanted to cheer (but couldn't take my hands off the controller to do so!

).

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:54 pm

FRO wrote:
Regulus wrote:Eh... I liked TF 3 more than 4, personally. And the music was better. 4 did look good, though.
This must be one of those things wherein if you played TF3 first, you like it better, whereas if you played TF4 first (like myself) you prefer it. Personally, listening to the music of both games side by side, I don't know how anyone can say TF3's music is better. I think TF4 was more varied, used more complex instrumentation, & made better use of the Genesis/MD sound processor.

I played TF3 about 10 years before I did TF4, so no. TF3 is better in certain ways (briefness, more of a classic feel, GORGON FLAMEZ, smoother control). Both indispensable. TF3 has more memorable classic game-style melodies, as said.

& everything is just more well-designed, IMO.

I've posted this about 20 times on the internet, but I'll do it again! TF4 in its epic length has more flaws. FACT! A few things that bother me:

-mountains that can cut your throat with jaggedness on stage 1
-unrealistic/xtreme parallax abuse (see HYPERSPACE/clouds on stage 1)
-some chunky ugly designs here and there
--I really don't like the large ship on stage 1. they should've gone straight to the boss.
--chunks of rock leaving square pieces from the environment on stage 7
--over-pixellated wreckage on Air-Raid

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:42 pm

Rob wrote: --over-pixellated wreckage on Air-Raid

That's Mode 7 effects right there. Who knew the Genesis/Megadrive could do something like that?

Alpolio · Post by **Alpolio** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:12 pm

To me the ultimate 16-bit shooter is a toss up between TFIV and Lords of Thunder. RT3 isn't even in the same league as those two. But I would say that RT3 is the best shmup that the SNES has to offer.

gameoverDude · Post by **gameoverDude** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:58 am

I'd pick Thunder Force IV. I have no-missed it (2000000 pts. bonus) on Normal. It may be a little on the long side, but it doesn't get boring.

TFIV's music is an interesting mix. In the Ruin stage, it's a nice touch how the stage BGM gets interrupted when the midboss crashes the party and its BGM takes over. Stage 9's track does a good job of alternating between two different styles- eerie, R-Typish stuff and some heavy metal. The last boss BGM sends the game out with a bang.

I kind of like the so-called "Parallax Abuse". Strite's parallax damn near gave me motion sickness on my first few plays, but once I got used to it I started to love it. I'll admit the square chunks cut out of the terrain in stage 7 do look a tad cheap, and the flame effects there aren't quite on par with the Gorgon ones. Ah well.

The sword beam attack is useful IMO. You have to plan around the kickback so you don't recoil into something.

Thunder Force V in 3D may have been a little too much for 32-bit. TecnoSoft should have went with prerendered or hand-drawn sprites all the way. Some parts of TFV are boring, like the one part where you drop down a vertical scroll section and sit at the bottom, roasting snakes with the wave shot while not moving. Yawn. TFIV has far better enemy patterns than TFV. TFV is too damn easy.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:16 am

dai jou bu wrote:
Rob wrote: --over-pixellated wreckage on Air-Raid
That's Mode 7 effects right there. Who knew the Genesis/Megadrive could do something like that?

Hold it right there. One thing is to actually scale an object in real time, and another is to simply paste a bitmap that's been made to look pixilated. When I see a sprite zooming in from the background, then I'll believe the Mode 7 claim. Now, check the ending of TF3. It looks a bit choppy, but that's scaling all right. I have said it once: For me, it's as if Technosoft had coded TF4 while enduring the hangover caused by the party thrown because of the success of TF3.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:02 am

Any time a developer tried to replicate SNES-style effects on the Genesis it turned out really crappy. Because it's crappy on the SNES.

Alpolio · Post by **Alpolio** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:35 am

Graphically, I always thought that "Choujikuu Yousai Macross: Scrambled Valkyrie" was the best looking SNES shmup. If not the best looking 16-bit shmup of them all. And it plays pretty good too.

The screen shots of the PCE's Sapphire looks better, but I've never had the chance to play it. (review)

JBC · Post by **JBC** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:50 am

Weren't the magic carpet scenes in Monster World IV done in mode 7? I'm pretty sure that Mega Turrican had a bit of it in there as well...

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:08 am

Specineff wrote:Mode 7 definition with examples

What I was implying actually was something like this...

Rob wrote:Any time a developer tried to replicate SNES-style effects on the Genesis it turned out really crappy. Because it's crappy on the SNES.

drohne · Post by **drohne** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:51 am

those are my favorite shmups on their respective consoles, but i give tfiv the edge in every category. it's one of my two or three favorite hori shmups -- it's just really intense and varied and cleverly designed throughout.

i really dig r type III's music, particularly its take on r type's level 1 tune with all the jazzy "soloing," but i've never been that impressed with its graphics -- i think they're cruder and cartoonier than those of the earlier r types.

edit: and i don't really care for mode seven effects in traditional 2d games either. they were cool at the time, but they just tend to date badly -- there are so many snes games that will spin things around for a level just because the hardware can do it.

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:41 pm

While I did enjoy R-Type III: The Third Lightning quite a bit, Thunder Force IV wins handsomely over it. Better levels, better music, more levels, better choice of weapons, considerably nicer looking graphics, much better music... TF IV just beats R-T III on all fronts in my opinion.

And I'd have to say that TF IV also beats TF III in all areas as well. I found many of the songs in IV and III to be quite good, but the sound style used for the music in IV was more to my liking. The graphics in IV took a healthy step up from III, and the sheer number of levels and their size/diversity put IV above III as well. I felt the designs in TF IV for all the ships were much cooler looking, and I think the forty minutes it takes to get through TF IV is just the right length for a shmup. I also love all the parallax TF IV throws at you. It didn't feel like overkill at all. Plus, the difficulty in IV was better, as the game got harder the longer you stayed alive. This made IV more challenging than III. However, the controls, like most Technosoft shmups, are good and crisp in both games, and the gameplay is nicely balanced in them too. So the games are on even ground there.

Don't get me wrong, I love TF III. That shmup holds a special place in my collection. Seeing the wavering fire for the first time (and that effect in general) was awesome, and the game is still fun to play through after all these years. But in my opinion, TF IV was the pinnacle of the series.

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:37 am

Rob wrote:I've posted this about 20 times on the internet, but I'll do it again! TF4 in its epic length has more flaws. FACT! A few things that bother me:

-mountains that can cut your throat with jaggedness on stage 1
-unrealistic/xtreme parallax abuse (see HYPERSPACE/clouds on stage 1)
-some chunky ugly designs here and there
--I really don't like the large ship on stage 1. they should've gone straight to the boss.
--chunks of rock leaving square pieces from the environment on stage 7
--over-pixellated wreckage on Air-Raid

Those are what I would consider minor quibbles, especially considering that despite the few graphic flaws, the game was leaps & bounds ahead of TFIII graphically. The level design is also more innovative, IMO.

gameoverDude wrote:Thunder Force V in 3D may have been a little too much for 32-bit. TecnoSoft should have went with prerendered or hand-drawn sprites all the way. Some parts of TFV are boring, like the one part where you drop down a vertical scroll section and sit at the bottom, roasting snakes with the wave shot while not moving. Yawn. TFIV has far better enemy patterns than TFV. TFV is too damn easy.

I would have to disagree with this statement. Pre-rendered graphics work well in some areas such Mortal Kombat or Shinobi Legions (no flames please), but I think it would have been a mistake for TFV. I think the 3D works well, even though it gets a little crazy at times. And I think that to pull off the type of gameplay TFV has w/ 2D effects & hand-drawn sprites would have been a major undertaking. Especially considering how advanced TFIV was, graphically. I mean, there aren't many shmups on the Saturn or PSX that are light-years ahead of TFIV, graphically speaking. At least none that I've seen or played...

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:16 am

FRO wrote: Those are what I would consider minor quibbles

I know, but it contributes to a sloppy look (at times).

captain ahar · Post by **captain ahar** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:05 pm

just played Thunderforce IV again on the weekend, and i have to say it's left a bad taste in my mouth. r-type III wins by a good many more miles now than when i made my last post on the subject. over used mode7? very possibly. more fun and rewarding? definitely.

Ko.oS · Post by **Ko.oS** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:20 pm

ok, i know this sounds weird, but hasnt the intro music from TFIV been ripped by a punkband? i just heard a song at some local radiostation, and i swear it sounded the same. couldnt catch the title though. anyway, if this is old news, well then.

....

D · Post by D » Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:43 pm

U.N Squadron/Area 88 CAPCOM
Axelay Konami

change topic to "ultimate 16-bit shooter" and above makes sense.
I dislike TF games, they seem so cheap to me. fast scrolling and within three seconds you have seen all the power ups. blech...
RT3 is okayish.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:59 pm

I find it difficult to try to decide if R-Type III or Thunder Force IV is better, since they are very different games and both great in their own respects. However:
I got both TF III and IV at the same time, back in 1998. That means I am not biased towards TF III just because I have nostalgic memories. Allow me to spell it out for you:

TF VI is much more impressive than TF III and way superior in EVERY respect.

FraGMarE · Post by **FraGMarE** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:03 pm

While I'm hesitant about participating in this pissing contest, I feel compelled to throw in my 2 cents anyway, simply because I like both games...

While both games are great, I don't consider either the flagship shmup for their respective system. I like Gaiares and Space Megaforce better, honestly. Between these two games, though, I'd have to say I like Thunderforce IV better. Regardless of graphics, sound, or anything else, it's just more fun to play. As for TF3, I like that a lot too. Whether I like it better than TF4 really depends on what mood I'm in on any given day... it's pretty close.

I must also say that I like Gate of Thunder better than any of the games I've just mentioned. Hudson clearly intended Gate of Thunder as some sort of tribute or dirivitive work of the Thunderforce games, but somehow they ended up with something that was greater than their source or inspiration. Interestingly, this also seemed to happen with Seibu when they made Raiden.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:11 pm

circuitface wrote:Weren't the magic carpet scenes in Monster World IV done in mode 7? I'm pretty sure that Mega Turrican had a bit of it in there as well...

Umm, software scaling... but yeah, MW4 has it during the end of that magic carpet ride as you enter the floating castle. Really, so long as you tell the MD/Genesis how to scale or rotate an object, it can do it.

I think part of the problem is that the term Mode 7 has become synonymous with sprite scaling and rotation even though Mode 7 itself was strictly for manipulation of a background plain.

captain ahar · Post by **captain ahar** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:12 pm

FraGMarE wrote:I must also say that I like Gate of Thunder better than any of the games I've just mentioned. Hudson clearly intended Gate of Thunder as some sort of tribute or dirivitive work of the Thunderforce games, but somehow they ended up with something that was greater than their source or inspiration. Interestingly, this also seemed to happen with Seibu when they made Raiden.

the same can be said about a lot of games... but i'm not complaining.

i love it when these kind of upsets happen. the upstart comes along with a tribute and ends up toppling the old guard. ^_^

GateofThunderforceIII · Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:14 pm

Dang. Where did all this TFIV hate come from? I'm not much of an R-Type fan (too slow and too memorization oriented) so between these two, I pick TFIV easily (though R-Type III is still a good shooter). Overall, though, just like what Fragmare said, Gate of Thunder blows both of these games to chunks.

jp · Post by jp » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:43 pm

I'm a Tecno Soft whore.

I don't care much for Irem.

Therefore, I would say TFIV.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:59 pm

captain ahar wrote: i love it when these kind of upsets happen. the upstart comes along with a tribute and ends up toppling the old guard. ^_^

Like when Dark Cloud killed Zelda 64.

Keranu · Post by **Keranu** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:46 pm

I agree with Fragmare as well, Gate of Thunder rocks them all.

Ko.oS · Post by **Ko.oS** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:05 am

GoT is excellent, albeit LoT is head and shoulders above it.

tizerist · Post by **tizerist** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:41 pm

some good responses.
itll take alot for me to like anything more than TF4,(in terms of pure fun) but R3, for all its methodicalness (?) is a worthy contender by the looks of things.
i just wish i could give a more educated input, as my new found addiction to TF5 has stopped me from progressing on R3.
but i will get back to it, no doubt about that.
whether ill actually progress in the game is another matter altogether. so frigging hard.
pity it has no high score tables tho.