Saturn vs MAME

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Edge
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Post by Edge »

it290 wrote:Overall, though, IMO the lag issue is probably more relevant with fighting games because of combos and such. Shooters require very precise inputs too, but a couple ms lag doesn't make as much of a difference.
I agree on that point, playing fighting games on Mame "feels" not that perfect. You can play them very well, but I have to admit that I prefer playing them on a console. Between I go with the default options for Mame, I never bothered with trying to get a better result.

But I don't notice any difference in shmups. The movement is too simple, in my opinion.

Something that reminds on the topic:
Last year on the Games Convention they had several classical gaming "stands"(?) there. There you could play Games like River Raid, Super Mario Bros., Pong and others... But one "cab" broke down showing the dos bios. ^_^

So they cheated on the people with emus... :p
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Post by antron »

When I setup a MAME cab for someone (and I have mada a few) I use FreeDOS with any ATI video card (for 15kHz output). For sound, use a motherboard that has ISA and just put in a sound blaster. I think a good keyboard encoder does the job well. I have also built the parallel port polling joystick adapter (wire and diodes) described in the MAME documentation. It worked great too.

So, how many real copies of Radiant Silvergun exist?

And all MAME users are pirates unless you own the PCB (arr!)
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Post by freddiebamboo »

antron wrote: So, how many real copies of Radiant Silvergun exist?
Tons, it's just that treasure fanatics have driven the price up to unbelievable levels. There are constantly multiple copies on ebay for sale. Eventually the price will drop...
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Post by antron »

freddiebamboo wrote:
antron wrote: So, how many real copies of Radiant Silvergun exist?
Tons, it's just that treasure fanatics have driven the price up to unbelievable levels. There are constantly multiple copies on ebay for sale. Eventually the price will drop...
ok, thanks.
Even if I get a real copy I will still mod the saturn and play off a backup.

edit: it's not like I can region patch the real disc. they have actually taken steps to make sure I DON'T use the real thing.
Last edited by antron on Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by 99pence »

freddiebamboo wrote:
antron wrote: So, how many real copies of Radiant Silvergun exist?
Tons, it's just that treasure fanatics have driven the price up to unbelievable levels. There are constantly multiple copies on ebay for sale. Eventually the price will drop...


The only reason it's expensive is a problem with supply and demand. There's demand, but there's no supply.
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Post by Kron »

There is actually plenty of supply, Its just a case that there are people hoarding it and unwilling to let it go beyond a certain inflated value as thats what some uninitiated people have determined its worth.

Im amazed that people haven't wised up and started to look beyond mankebay for prices.
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Post by 99pence »

Kron wrote:There is actually plenty of supply, Its just a case that there are people hoarding it and unwilling to let it go beyond a certain inflated value as thats what some uninitiated people have determined its worth.

Im amazed that people haven't wised up and started to look beyond mankebay for prices.

Come on. Think about it logically.

Look on ebay. Radiant Silvergun will start at 1 €£$ whatever. No reserve. The only thing pushing up the price is demand.

There's no 'lunatic treasure fans' sitting on their thrones with a big cabinet of hoarded games dictating the prices of software. Utter nonsence.

If Ikaruga had only come out on the DC it would probably be going for the same price as RSG.

Supply and demand people. Its as simple as that.


As for the ebay remark. ebay is probably the cheapest place you will pick it up. I looked on your video game auctions but there's not even a copy on there.
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dial911
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Post by dial911 »

I would personally go the Saturn Route just because of Battle Garegga; which is actually much better then the arcade version with it's multitude of modes.

Also the Saturn has dozens of near-arcade perfect ports (including fighters as well):

Radiant Silvergun
X-men vs. Street Fighter
Marvel vs. Street Fighter
Batsugun
Street Fighter Alpha 2
Street Fighter Zero 3
Soukygurentai
Real Bout Special
Real Bout Final
Vampire Savior
Vampire Hunter
Super Puzzle Fighter 2
the list goes on..............

Also I think Saturn Bomberman in a cab would fuggin rock.
What more can I say I wouldn't be here today if the old school didn't pave the way.
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Post by Kron »

99pence wrote:As for the ebay remark. ebay is probably the cheapest place you will pick it up.
Where else have you looked?
99pence wrote:I looked on your video game auctions but there's not even a copy on there.
The last one ended 4 days ago.
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Post by BulletMagnet »

antron wrote:So, how many real copies of Radiant Silvergun exist?
The number that I recall hearing is 50,000...not a huge amount, but not exactly rare either. The thing that seems to make the price so high is simply the demand for it, more than the supply; as was said, if you really want it, you can find it easily, but you'll have to pay a lot anyway.

In any event, RSG is an exception in the world of Saturn shmups...most others aren't anywhere near that pricey, so if you want to enjoy some shmupping on your Saturn there are plenty of other good options than RSG. In any event, the game's most certainly not for everyone.
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Post by antron »

I just picked up a Saturn from a shop, and ordered a SCART cable from the UK.
I even found someone here in the states with what I need to play imports.

The only shop here that sells saturn stuff was void of shmups. But I grabbed a copy of Astal for $5, and I am excited to see the 2D capabilities of the Saturn.

So what good shmups were released in the states?
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Post by Acid King »

antron wrote:I just picked up a Saturn from a shop, and ordered a SCART cable from the UK.
I even found someone here in the states with what I need to play imports.

The only shop here that sells saturn stuff was void of shmups. But I grabbed a copy of Astal for $5, and I am excited to see the 2D capabilities of the Saturn.

So what good shmups were released in the states?
Darius Gaiden and Galactic Attack elsewise known as Layer Section. Not sure if that one has tate mode in tact though.
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Post by it290 »

Yup. It sure does. I would really recommend playing that game in tate as well, since in yoko mode the visible area is cut off and many special effects are gone or changed.
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Post by EOJ »

BulletMagnet wrote:
antron wrote:So, how many real copies of Radiant Silvergun exist?
The number that I recall hearing is 50,000...not a huge amount, but not exactly rare either. The thing that seems to make the price so high is simply the demand for it, more than the supply; as was said, if you really want it, you can find it easily, but you'll have to pay a lot anyway.
I heard 30,000, but yeah in any case it's a decent amount.
In any event, RSG is an exception in the world of Saturn shmups...most others aren't anywhere near that pricey, .
Hyper duel is the only one to fetch similar prices, but it is much rarer than RSG (I think I heard only 5000-8000 copies were produced).
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Post by BulletMagnet »

twe wrote:Hyper duel is the only one to fetch similar prices, but it is much rarer than RSG (I think I heard only 5000-8000 copies were produced).
I don't know anything about the print run of that game (or most games, frankly), but when scouring on eBay it definitely shows up much less frequently than RSG does...then again, so do lots of games, heh heh.

Then, of course, there's that one copy of Saturn Space Invaders which the seller was asking over 200$ for, heh heh.
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Post by llabnip »

99pence wrote:Supply and demand people. Its as simple as that.
Quite correct - it's basic economics 101 at work here. There were approx 50000 copies pressed for Radiant Silvergun. There are several on ebay at any given time - so it's not "rare" and not hard to get a copy any given day of the week. However, there are generally more willing buyers than there are willing sellers. Supply is limited and demand is high so the price goes up. It wouldn't matter if there were half-a-million copies of something - if there are more willing buyers than sellers, the price will remain high.
freddiebamboo wrote:There are constantly multiple copies on ebay for sale. Eventually the price will drop...
I'm amazed that year after year the price remains remarkably stable... it fluctuates a bit over time, but seems to hover in the same range with the occasional jump due to someone wanting it "right now!". Anyway, if you are willing to wait and search and keep an eye out for a good auction, you'll get a clean copy of RS for $130 which is pretty good considering inflation in the past decade. Anyway, I think it's worth 3x that price but I'm a little loopy when it comes to RS.
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

llabnip wrote:
99pence wrote:Supply and demand people. Its as simple as that.
Quite correct - it's basic economics 101 at work here. There were approx 50000 copies pressed for Radiant Silvergun.
[/quote]
Interestingly enough, 50K is the figure that gets thrown about for Castlevania Chronicles. Totally different genre, and hasn't been out as long (only roughly 5 years, bit less than that).

Also wanted to thank Elvis for clarifying on input methods on MAME...that's interesting. Yesterday I played the heck outta Super Contra and got killed a few times when my character simply wouldn't jump - wouldn't respond to the input. Using a keyboard, of course.

On that track, would buying a video card help with speed? That machine is a Compaq (branded) 2.X GHz Celeron machine with half a gig of RAM, but only Intel 845G-family embedded graphics. I'm pretty sure it only has PCI ports, though.
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Post by it290 »

Nope, video card really has no effect on MAME speed, especially when you're talking about anything made in the last few years. Your video card can have an impact on what types of custom modes you're able to use, but that's only an issue if you want to put some work in to create the best possible MAME experience.
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

it290 wrote:Nope, video card really has no effect on MAME speed, especially when you're talking about anything made in the last few years. Your video card can have an impact on what types of custom modes you're able to use, but that's only an issue if you want to put some work in to create the best possible MAME experience.
Hmm, it might just come down to the cheaper processor design and slower RAM in that box (my newest machine will run most anything I put on it without any hiccups, noticably any Neo Geo or CPS-2 game whereas they'll stutter pretty badly on that Celeron). At the very least, this means I don't have to spend even more money, which is always pleasant to hear :)
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Post by it290 »

One thing to check is the MAME version you're running. The newer versions are REALLY slow compared to the older ones.
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Post by superhitachi4 »

I didn't really read through this thread entirely, but for ST-V stuff (Radiant Silvergun, Soukyugurentai for example), Saturn's the way to go, as emulation hasn't been perfected.
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Post by Neon »

superhitachi4 wrote:I didn't really read through this thread entirely, but for ST-V stuff (Radiant Silvergun, Soukyugurentai for example), Saturn's the way to go, as emulation hasn't been perfected.
Broadly speaking. Groove on Fight runs a lot better in MAME than on a Saturn. @ antron: RS is mediocre anyway and you'll realize it once you stop warezing (or in other cases collecting) games.

I'd vote for Saturn, an SS would cost hundreds less than a dedicated mame pc and you get better than arcade perfect Batsugun, Vampire Savior, Garegga, Puyo Puyo Sun, etc.

@ elvis: If you could tell me how to get this lag-free emulation setup I'd love to know. Pretty much everything lags for me at least a tiny bit. Either way Batrider, Garegga, and other Raizing stuff (toaplan2.c in general I think) has input lag due to emulation issues, which are well documented over at mame forums, so you'll have to own at least some PCB's anyway.
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Post by GaijinPunch »

Kron wrote:There is actually plenty of supply, Its just a case that there are people hoarding it and unwilling to let it go beyond a certain inflated value as thats what some uninitiated people have determined its worth.
It's still supply and demand though. There are simply not enough out there to drive the price down. It doesn't matter if there's a million copies out there. If 2 million people want it, the price will go up. Besides, there's plenty of people that aren't even into shooters that want to play it, but either haven't gotten around to it, or can't afford it, or haven't been able to get it. It's not going down anytime soon. Not below the $150 mark anyway.\

EDIT: I should read the whole post first. Well said, llabnip.
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Post by elvis »

it290 wrote:One thing to check is the MAME version you're running. The newer versions are REALLY slow compared to the older ones.
Careful when giving advice out like that.

MAME emulates hardware, not games. Games are just a pleasant side-effect of emulating hardware. :)

The "older" MAME gets, the more hardware is emulated. The more hardware emulated, the more work it has to do for particular games. People perceive this as MAME getting "slower", but it's not always the case. There are games in MAME that run well over 400% faster today than they did a year ago thanks to fantastic re-writing of core components (ST-V games, for instance - like Radiant Silvergun, which seems to attract a hell of a lot of attention in here).

Likewise there are games that run "slower" (and by slower, I mean consume more CPU power - they can still run at full framerate no capable hardware) today, but in return are emulated more correctly than previously (ie: correct sound emulation, all graphics emulated, no missing bits or incorrect logic, etc). And at the end of the day, and emulator is designed to strive for authenticity of the original hardware. Emulators that add all sorts of fluff on top to me aren't emulators, but simulators. A slight difference, but one that matters to purists.

Generally speaking (and not always 100% of the case), as MAME matures you can expect to need a faster CPU to run all titles. There are titles that simply will not run on modern hardware (and probably not ever, as CPU manufacturers stop scaling MHz upwards and instead turn to slower multi-core CPUs, which MAME can't use due to the serial nature of emulation).

If you do want a dedicated MAME setup, avoid low-cache CPUs (Celerons, Durons, Semprons, etc). Go for the fastest high-cache (P4 or Athlon64) single-core CPU you can afford. Generally speaking a 2GHz CPU will play all of the 2D games (excluding ST-V). For 3D play you'll need a 3.5GHz/3500+ rated CPU or higher.

John IV is the co-author of MAME32, and keeps an up-to-date benchmark site running to help people see what they will need to run MAME:
http://mame32qa.classicgaming.gamespy.com/Bench.htm

I also ran a benchmarking site, but have recently run out of time to keep it updated. I eventually plan to make it dynamic and database driven, and allow people to upload their own scores:
http://benchmark.mameworld.net/
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Post by antron »

Neon wrote: If you could tell me how to get this lag-free emulation setup I'd love to know. Pretty much everything lags for me at least a tiny bit. Either way Batrider, Garegga, and other Raizing stuff (toaplan2.c in general I think) has input lag due to emulation issues, which are well documented over at mame forums, so you'll have to own at least some PCB's anyway.
wouldn't you need all the PCBs so you wouldn't be warezing?
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

elvis wrote:
it290 wrote:One thing to check is the MAME version you're running. The newer versions are REALLY slow compared to the older ones.
Careful when giving advice out like that.

MAME emulates hardware, not games. Games are just a pleasant side-effect of emulating hardware. :)

The "older" MAME gets, the more hardware is emulated.

...Likewise there are games that run "slower" (... consume more CPU power ...) today, but in return are emulated more correctly than previously
Yeah, even if I'm not running everything fullspeed here, downgrading should never be an option.
If you do want a dedicated MAME setup, avoid low-cache CPUs (Celerons, Durons, Semprons, etc). Go for the fastest high-cache (P4 or Athlon64) single-core CPU you can afford. Generally speaking a 2GHz CPU will play all of the 2D games (excluding ST-V). For 3D play you'll need a 3.5GHz/3500+ rated CPU or higher.
Strangely enough, it's a 2.69GHz (labeled as 2.7) Celeron, but even some earlier games have stuttering sound - Rolling Thunder 2 and Steel Gunner 2 (both around '91 from Namco) are examples. I should check my video settings (have Direct Draw and Direct 3D enabled, and use clean stretch)...but yes, the small cache on the processor probably is mostly to blame.
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Post by elvis »

antron wrote:wouldn't you need all the PCBs so you wouldn't be warezing?
What? Those same PCBs that have copyright screens like "This game is illegal for sale outside of Japan"? (Yes, that means it's illegal to sell outside of Japan, even second hand! Gasp! You're actually breaking the law by buying/selling these! Warezed if you do, warezed if you don't).

And those same PCBs that we buy off eBay where not one single dollar goes to the original game developers?

I love supporting the games industry, but I find the PCB-owning crowd's logic amusing at best. As previously mentioned, I own, fix, and sell PCBs, but if I really, really want to support a developer the only way to do it is to either buy brand new kits, or buy console conversions by the same company. Anything else is just fluff and forum fodder. The second-hand PCB market is no more morally justified than emulators are. You'll do your favourite games company far more financial good buying a PS2 port than you will buying a second-hand PCB. Not that I'm suggesting you all stop buying PCBs, merely that I'm suggesting you don't buy them just to clear your guilty conciences.
Ed Oscuro wrote: Strangely enough, it's a 2.69GHz (labeled as 2.7) Celeron, but even some earlier games have stuttering sound - Rolling Thunder 2 and Steel Gunner 2 (both around '91 from Namco) are examples. I should check my video settings (have Direct Draw and Direct 3D enabled, and use clean stretch)...but yes, the small cache on the processor probably is mostly to blame.
My AthlonXP 1800+ (1.533GHz) plays both those titles prefectly without lag. Try fiddling with a few options - turning no/off cleanstretch seems to have different results on different sysetms, likewise vsync options, D3D vs DDraw (one or the other, but not both), etc, etc. "Rolling Thunder 2" era games should definitely NOT need more than 1GHz to play, even on the latest version of MAME. As I have said to so many others - it ain't the software that's at fault, but the settings you've chosen. Tweaking it should get you full framerates easily.
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Post by Dave_K. »

elvis wrote: What? Those same PCBs that have copyright screens like "This game is illegal for sale outside of Japan"? (Yes, that means it's illegal to sell outside of Japan, even second hand! Gasp! You're actually breaking the law by buying/selling these! Warezed if you do, warezed if you don't).

And those same PCBs that we buy off eBay where not one single dollar goes to the original game developers?

I love supporting the games industry, but I find the PCB-owning crowd's logic amusing at best. As previously mentioned, I own, fix, and sell PCBs, but if I really, really want to support a developer the only way to do it is to either buy brand new kits, or buy console conversions by the same company. Anything else is just fluff and forum fodder. The second-hand PCB market is no more morally justified than emulators are. You'll do your favourite games company far more financial good buying a PS2 port than you will buying a second-hand PCB. Not that I'm suggesting you all stop buying PCBs, merely that I'm suggesting you don't buy them just to clear your guilty conciences.
Wow how much farther off topic can we get? :D BTW the copyright screens on PCBs say that its illegal if you sell or operate a PCB outside its intended region. Nothing illegal about buying a board for home use only (not making any profit off it). And what about if I buy an international or USA PCB (my region), am I allowed to clear my guilty conscience then (compared to people who download roms)?

What I love most is that people are quick to point out any trivial copyright infringement and use that as their own moral justification to download/trade any game they wish for free. It is hurting the industry. And although buying 2nd hand PCB's may not put money back into the original developers, it does still justify their market!
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Post by elvis »

Dave_K. wrote:What I love most is that people are quick to point out any trivial copyright infringement and use that as their own moral justification to download/trade any game they wish for free. It is hurting the industry. And although buying 2nd hand PCB's may not put money back into the original developers, it does still justify their market!
I am not trying to "justify" ROMs downloads. Far from it. What I am trying to do is make people realise that buying a 2nd hand board does not put money in developer's pockets. It seems the world is far more concerned about archaic western copyright law than they are about actually putting money into the pockets of the games developers that they love.

I really, REALLY care about the games industry. I would like to see it, and the small-time developers I love within it profit for quite some time to come, and continue to deliver the games I enjoy. Heck, imagine a world without people like Treasure and Cave. That would suck.

I have contacted countless developers and publishers over the years begging them to think differently about sales. Quit these shitty limited and costly console ports and offer ROM licensing direct to the public. Hell, I'd pay $200 or more direct to Cave for an approved download of a DoDonPachi ROM. What option do I possibly have right here and right now to purchase this game legally and ensure that the money goes not to some arsehole collector but to the brilliant people who made the game? None. Sad truth.

Rumour had it that David "I tried to steal the MAME copyright" Foley of Ultracade fame was going to release an "iROMs" service this year. For a few bucks you could download your favourite ROM legally and play it in a non-profit manner in your own home (It was mentioned original SF2 was going to be around the $10 mark, which is an absolute steal). Now, Mr Foley is a self-made multi-millionaire, and has the cash to make these schemes work. However I still don't see the fruits of that labor. That was probably my last hope of seeing a reasonable and realistic way to purchase original arcade-quality games and have money go directly to the developers, and not to eBay and the collectors who abuse it.

Imagine if SF2 goes for $10. Imagine if 100,000 people download it (not unreasonable, considering it's popularity). There's a million bucks in sales. Even if Ultracade only makes 10-20% and the rest goes to Capcom, that's several hundred thousand bucks in Capcom's pockets that doesn't arrive there from second-hand PCB sales on eBay.

As I said, I'd pay some serious money to have a Cave-approved ROM with the knowledge that the cash (or at least a majority of it) lands in the hands of Cave staff. And I'm sure there are dozens of people reading this who feel the same way. I buy every single Cave console port I can reguardless of the quality and/or side issues, but that still leaves me unsatisfied.

THAT is the point I'm trying to get across. THAT for me is the big picture. I really want to see this market last, and second-hand sales (and yes, emulation too in it's current form) do nothing positive for it. Short of writing a cheque to Cave for a few thousand bucks every year, it gets harder and harder for me to give my money to the people whom I feel deserve it.

Apple saw a huge hole in the music market when the release iTunes. In the first 48 hours of operation they made US$11 million PROFIT. Not sale, but actual all-expenses-counted PROFIT. Before that time, the RIAA and all the legal eagles spent all their time and effort arresting people for downloading MP3s. Overnight Apple turns a supposed "crime wave" into a legal and hugely profitable industry which benefits not only them, but the musicians directly. It has gone as far now as that some musicians are releasing their music on iTunes only, as they actually see more profit than from con-artists like Sony/BMG, Mushroom, etc who pay these people as little as 1 or 2% of their gross profits.

Fast forward a few years and here we have an industry of games publishers bitching that nobody pays for games and they all go and download them illegally. Well, obviously the demand is there, so why hasn't someone filled the hole with a business opportunity? Make some goddamn lemonaide out of these lemons! Sell ROMs online, legally!

StarROMs tried it, and failed.
http://www.starroms.com/goodbye.php
Why? Not because people weren't buying ROMs, oh no. The StarROMs CEO himself has told me privately (and the world quite publically in interviews) that quite simply it's the games developers who DON'T WANT to sell their games online, instead preferring the traditional (and less profitable) publishing house alternatives. Are these people mad? Do they actually want to cut a profit?

This whole thing tires me to be honest. I've said the exact same thing on the mame.com, mameworld.net and byoac.com forums, all of which has been met with great enthusiasm by MAME devs and users alike. Not that it has gotten anyone anywhere.

I'm no multi-millionaire, so my ideas have no financial weight to make them work. Dave Foley might stand a chance if he still cares about the industry as he claims. If he's telling the truth, I wish him luck. I'm pessimistically doubtful, however.

So whatever. Buy your PCBs and enjoy them like I do. But until the money goes to game developers directly, the enjoyment for me still leaves a bitter aftertaste.

[edit: spelling]
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Location: Wigan, England.

Post by Marc »

Wow... just, yeah. Agreed. This argument is never gonna go away and neither is MAME, why on earth software devs don't use the opportunity to make some real money from it is beyond me. Legally downloaded roms, with perhaps official artwork for CD covers etc... even something like the Taito Legends/Memories comp would have made far more sense on-line. Cut out the middleman. If it were legal tomorrow, I'd destroy every Xbox emu I own, and go buy the games I REALLY want. Make the softco's some cash, and probably do me a favour as a gamer.
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