Space Invaders dev Tomohiro Nishikado says danmaku games are "dead end" for the genre - thoughts?

[m.sniffles.esq]

Bigmode is dunkey - that's the publisher he owns.

Well, I guess now I know why he made that video

It's all coming together.

[maximo310]

So the question is - do these easy modes such as M2's really serve to "get people in"? As in, do people try them and when they're done, do they really try the normal game or just leave it at that?

Depends on the game. On Hishouzame/KTiger I could see it maybe working since the normal 1 loop clears on both game mostly come down to getting used to manual bomb usage & faster bullets, while something like EspRaDe or Ketsui takes out so many bullets that it's like you're playing a completely different game at the end of the day. The Same3! super easy mode also ends up falling in the latter category with the autobomb ( which is on almost every m2 super easy/arrange mode for better or worse)

So if you're looking for better reference material for 1cc'ing the regular version of the game, you'll probably get a bit more help from the Arcade Challenge modes.

[sunnshiner]

So the question is - do these easy modes such as M2's really serve to "get people in"? As in, do people try them and when they're done, do they really try the normal game or just leave it at that?

I like a novice mode because I'm old and slow. I got back into video games about 10 years ago when I got a used 360 I was just astounded at bullet hell games, like "how the blistering fuck can anyone even play that?" mixed in with " why would you make a game that's basically impossible?" astounded. I didn't realise at first that the hitboxes were tiny, coming as I was from (most latterly) R-Type Delta and Raiden on PS1 and occasionally emulated Mega Drive and SNES shmups.

So, I had my 360 modded and filled it with all of the Cave stuff and initially hated them, then I tried the novice modes in the games that had them and got into them. Having used the novice modes in Akai Katana (1CC) Esp 2 (1CC), Mushi Futari and DDP DFK to git gud I can kind of play the normal modes, having (kind of) learned how to play them in their novice modes. So I did go back to play them as they were intended. Kind of.

I really wish 360 Ketsui had a novice mode, I can get to mid level 3 in arcade mode with the difficulty on easy but after that I'm stuffed. I will not improve because I am too old and too slow but I still play it because I love the aesthetic of it. DOJ can get right in the sea though. It looks ace but I hate it because it's too strict and therefore, to me, not fun.

[Lemnear]

So the question is - do these easy modes such as M2's really serve to "get people in"? As in, do people try them and when they're done, do they really try the normal game or just leave it at that?

Because if it's the latter -and that's what I'd believe, given that "the people" naturally want to see new set pieces with their progress, not the same ones over and over-, it doesn't seem like they haven't really got into the actual game or something made with arcade sensibilities, does it?

Honestly? YES, absolutely! If there was only Arcade mode, people wouldn't even try stuff like DOJ or Ketsui. But between the various Arrange and Challenge modes, that "possibility" is created, after finishing all the arrangements you are less scared of the original Arcade. Maybe are also in the trophies, both for Arrange and for other tasks, in a certain sense it entices a lot of people. Give lots of little rewards, as you move toward the big result, to keep the desire high.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I'm not sure use cases here exemplify well what Nishikado meant with "newer players", but yeah, first off we should know what's a higher barrier for them - apparent difficulty or complexity, because they're not the same thing.

[Light1000]

I'm not sure use cases here exemplify well what Nishikado meant with "newer players", but yeah, first off we should know what's a higher barrier for them - apparent difficulty or complexity, because they're not the same thing.

Definitely higher apparent difficulty. I'd say for the average person ("normie") looking into shmups, their understanding is so shallow that they probably won't even see any complexity at all, ("this is so simple / just dodge and shoot") they might not even understand what could be the difference between any of the games.

[SavagePencil]

I went to school in Austin during the mid-90s and watched as the nascent fighting game community there evolved from enthusiasts to pro level. To continue catering to that audience, the games had to get more dense, faster, and way more technical. By 2000 when I graduated, putting a coin on the bezel to call dibs meant you were basically throwing it away. The audience had dwindled to almost nothing. The machines were inaccessible to anyone who wasn’t part of the cognoscenti. I shifted to SNK which was more story and character driven because the Capcom guys turned their noses up at them and thus you had a chance to actually have fun.

It took almost a decade before SF IV came out and cracked that somewhat.

So I think he has a point.

[1KMS]

.

[Light1000]

I cataloged a couple of the sales numbers for non-danmaku games which got American releases: (all from vgchartz, some missing Japanese data for some reason)
Raiden IV - 120k copies (100k of that are US sales)
Raiden Fighters Aces - 90k copies (only 60k in America)
Raiden V - 30k copies
Gradius 3+4 - 80k copies (40k in the US, 30k in Europe)
Gradius 5 - 90k copies (50k in US, 40k in Europe)
R-Type Final - 190k copies (90k in US)
PS Vita Release of Darius Burst - 40k sales (Japan only)

Danmaku games largely didn't get released in America at all, but for the few that did:
Akai Katana - 60k copies (40k in US)
Castle of Shikigami III - 40k copies (only US sales listed)

and the sales of each version of Ikaruga:
American Gamecube release - 70k copies
Steam Port - 128k copies
Xbox Live Arcade port - 137k copies (https://web.archive.org/web/20120124020 ... review.php)

now compare that to Sine Mora:
PC release - 137k copies
PS4 EX release - 60k copies (30k US)
Xbox 1 EX release - 30k copies (all American)

and finally, lets look at Deathsmiles: (360)
150k US sales
50k Japan sales
60k European sales

So... I'm not really seeing a huge correlation between danmaku and less successful games.
The sales for the throwback games like Raiden and Gradius are really interesting for being as low as they are - these games have INSANE name recognition, especially back in the mid 2000s when the average player would probably have had memories of playing them in arcades, so the fact that even those can't break 200k copies but Deathsmiles can is really strange. In any case, they didn't sell enough to continue being made.
I don't think difficulty has anything to do with it as much as marketing does. The average person, as far I can see, literally just knows nothing about shmups or just remembers being told by some millennial / gen x youtuber that they're all brutal unfair quarter munchers or something. They just don't care at all.
Ikaruga and Sine Mora got endlessly praised by journalists and that only led to a (relatively) paltry 200k sales for each of them.
The closest thing to real marketing that any shmup has received recently is dunkey's star of providence video and thanks to that, it has 2,678 reviews on steam at the moment, which is ~600 more than the Ikaruga steam port, which is really fascinating. I can assume it has ~150k sales at the least. Getting a big name to promote your game does way more than actually changing the content of it, it looks like.

Additional numbers:
NES Xevious
-1.27 million Japanese sales
-180k American sales
Xevious 3D/G+ PSX
-110k Japanese sales
-10k American sales
NES Tiger Heli
-1 million units sold (Europe+US according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger-Hel ... Htuhovg-18)
NES Star Soldier
-570k Japanese sales
-320k American sales
NES 1942
-210k Japanese sales
-650k American sales (!!!)
-140k European sales
NES Gradius
-1 million Japanese sales
-270k American sales
Gradius Galaxies
-60k American sales
PSP Gradius Collection
-20k Japanese sales
-40k American sales
UN Squadron
-120k Japanese sales
Thunder Force V PSX:
-30k American sales
Thunder Force VI
-20k Japanese sales
Super R-Type
-230k Japanese sales
-50k American sales (https://en.namu.wiki/w/SUPER%20R-TYPE)
R-Types (PSX R-Type 1 and 2 compilation)
-40k American sales
R-Type Delta
-10k American sales
In the Hunt PSX port
-70k Japanese sales
-30k American sales
Darius Gaiden Saturn port
-100k Japanese sales
G-Darius PSX port
-40k American sales
Darius II Saturn port
-30k Japanese sales
Darius Burst CS PS4
-10k Japanese sales
Radiant Silvergun (Saturn)
-30k Japanese sales
Parodius PSX port
-310k Japanese sales (????)
Gokujou Parodius (SFC)
-180k Japanese sales
Parodius Saturn port
-160k Japanese sales
Oshaberi Parodius (SFC)
-50k Japanese sales
Otomedius Excellent
-40k Japanese sales
-130k American sales (??)

From what I can tell, it looks like the drop-off in sales numbers for shmups started incredibly early, even by the beginning of 4th gen. The "it's because of danmaku" explanation really fails to justify the majority of lost popularity.

[m.sniffles.esq]

From what I can tell, it looks like the drop-off in sales numbers for shmups started incredibly early, even by the beginning of 4th gen. The "it's because of danmaku" explanation really fails to justify the majority of lost popularity.

Probably because people got bored with the formula, which is why danmaku came into existence. But people generally found danmaku inaccessible, so it didn't help that much.

Which is -- y'know -- pretty much what he's saying...

[Light1000]

From what I can tell, it looks like the drop-off in sales numbers for shmups started incredibly early, even by the beginning of 4th gen. The "it's because of danmaku" explanation really fails to justify the majority of lost popularity.

Probably because people got bored with the formula, which is why danmaku came into existence. But people generally found danmaku inaccessible, so it didn't help that much.

Which is -- y'know -- pretty much what he's saying...

In order to show that this is true, you would need evidence that non-danmaku games sell and danmaku games flat-out don't
As covered before, danmaku games certainly sell less overall, but they still have the potential to sell just as much as ex. Ikaruga which the guy praised in the article despite having never played
Deathsmiles sold almost 300k copies with a xbox 360 physical release, equaling Ikaruga's sales across three platforms and 2 decades - did people find that inaccessible...?
If I had to guess, there are probably three factors behind that particular success:
1. Anime girls
2. Horizontal aspect ratio
3. Selecting rank at the start of each stage probably feels less "dishonorable" than selecting novice mode for gamers with too much pride

[Light1000]

Just remembered this: There was a leak of steam player data in 2018 so we can also take a look at shmup sales from back then -> https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/07/ ... -of-games/ (csv file in the article)
Jamestown: 413206
Ikaruga: 128543
Astebreed: 99413
Crimzon Clover: 78127
Ether Vapor: 42020
Mushihimesama: 41705
Raiden IV: 38750
Revolver360: 36276
Satazius: 32140
Gundemonium Recollection: 28454
Darius Burst CS: 27685
Super Galaxy Squadron EX Turbo: 25940
Deathsmiles: 25164
Danmaku Unlimited 2: 22121
DDP DFK: 21323
Kamui: 14417
Alltynex Second: 11241
Monolith (Star Of Providence) : 10880
Blue Revolver: 8797
Reflex: 4761
Danmaku Unlimited 3: 3644

[m.sniffles.esq]

In order to show that this is true, you would need evidence that non-danmaku games sell and danmaku games flat-out don't

Well first, one would have to go back and read one of the several "What exactly IS danmaku?" threads, and the endless circular and repetitive arguments contained within.

Then when you wake up, if you still care...

Spoiler

You won't

[bobrocks95]

I went to school in Austin during the mid-90s and watched as the nascent fighting game community there evolved from enthusiasts to pro level. To continue catering to that audience, the games had to get more dense, faster, and way more technical. By 2000 when I graduated, putting a coin on the bezel to call dibs meant you were basically throwing it away. The audience had dwindled to almost nothing. The machines were inaccessible to anyone who wasn’t part of the cognoscenti. I shifted to SNK which was more story and character driven because the Capcom guys turned their noses up at them and thus you had a chance to actually have fun.

It took almost a decade before SF IV came out and cracked that somewhat.

So I think he has a point.

Me trying to play Smash with anyone I know and losing a stock every 20 seconds ^

[1KMS]

.

[Lemnear]

I find it unusual that practically ALL developers have evolved towards danmku, and that practically NO ONE has evolved the "IREM" formula. Terrains, that sense of puzzle/platform, where you play a lot with the physicality of the environment and the bosses (like flying around them in specific points or fitting into certain spaces).
Example:

Spoiler

This boss doesn't even shoot! but I like the way you have to hit its weak points... Ikaruga is the last game to do similar things, I think the danmaku formula is exhausted but this other one still has something to say.

[Rastan78]

Agree 100% Lemnear. It's like somewhere along the line shmup devs forgot you can balance design around multiple threats, not just bullets. Danmaku do sometimes have a disconnect between the bullet layer and the scrolling background making it feel as if you aren't grounded in the environment.

Enemy behavior is usually defined by the bullets they shoot, their size and HP. Interesting movement patterns or unique attack types are less prevalent.

I miss stuff like this:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

[CerealPT]

he is not wrong, even Cave kinda lost it on my opinion after trying Dodonpachi Saidaijou where they focused too much on making it as hard as possible instead of making it fun.

[davyK]

I used to think exactly like Nishikado. I thought the DDP games were an ever increasing bullet storm designed for fewer and fewer players. I had played DDP but hadn't really stuck at it. I'm 59 now and thought like that until 6 or 7 years ago.

I got a 360 right at the end of its life and got Futari and DDP:Res for it. Something clicked. I went back to DDP and started to appreciate that.

I now see modern style shmups as the genre for me - the duality of design (survival and then scoring with risk/reward), the blend of tactics, skill , learning and execution (like learning a piece of music), the feeling one gets when mastering an enemy formation or an entire level that previously looked impossible, and just the sheer spectacle of the games, make these games unique in gaming and anyone who doesn't play them really is missing out.

I haven't achieved many 1CCs (Gigawing, Mushi Original, Darius Gaiden-easy route, Raiden III on easy and a few SNES games like Super Aleste and Firepower 2000) but that doesn't mean I don't intend to give up just yet - pretty sure I have a 1CC in me for DFK, Futari , Espgaluda, one of the Parodius games, and maybe even Layer Section (used to get to level 6 with 3 or more lives). And who knows what else? I've also managed to 106% Super Meat Boy so with a bit of effort many difficult games are achieveable even for scrub level players like me.

Novice modes are a great idea but they are too easy for me. Futari's has an autobomb that needs to be optional to become useful as a stepping stone. DOJ's is too much of a walkover.

I do think M2's challenge modes are a superb idea though.

If new shmups need to appeal to more pepple then they need a campaign mode with cut scenes. save points and some set pieces with an unlockable arcade mode which drops the cut scenes and set pieces and adds rank, maybe an extra level or two.

Get a survival clesr and unlock score attack, training, replay and master modes.. Master mode adds a 2nd loop or at least a TLB.

Score attack mode has a tutorial that shows some ... only some.... scoring tricks and leaderboards that tracks arcade and master modes.

This gives a path to enlightenment.

[sunnshiner]

... so with a bit of effort many difficult games are achieveable even for scrub level players like me.

Oh my word. You haven't seen me play, have you? I can out-scrub the filthiest of casuals There's your basic 'scrub' level, then if you look under the rock that scrub's sat on, there's a layer of 'sub-scrub' that can be seen looking down on me and shouting 'git gud' while I'm trying to play DOJ...

[davyK]

The 1ccs I've got have taken me many months....embarrassingly long.

Mushi probably took a year! I have >200 hrs clocked up on that. So I'm no expert believe me. For many games it's all in the head.

Age and speed matters more with high bullet speed games like bloody Raiden III and Psikyo games. I like figuring out routes but the level of memorisation for those is beyond me. Pick the game and stick at it. I find that hard to do as I'm a gaming butterfly but it's possible for most people. Save states or training mode ........ and swearing.

You do get better and getting a 1CC changes your mental attitude. Went back to Futari after clearing Mushi and suddenly the 2nd half of level 3 wasn't so terrifying any more.

Have a detox game for variety. Balatro helps me.

Get a decent arcade stick and stay with it.

[Angry Hina]

Yeah I think he's right, but the concept applies pretty much across arcade genres regardless of the danmaku classification. I'd say the era of increasing complexity where the casual audience got lost was the mid to late 90s.

It's not so much about raw difficulty but complexity and the number of systems and mechanics at work. In simple terms do you need a wiki to properly play?

Take a look at the jump from SF2 to SF3. SF2 if you learn to block, throw, jump and do a couple specials per character you can play. By third strike in 1999 you have parries (high/low, air and red), universal overheads, overhead normals, ex moves, multiple super arts, special taunt properties, juggle system, quick rise, target combos, unblockable setups, hit confirms, install supers etc. Most of which could be considered basic beginner skills.

I dont know about the Street Fighter comparison. I always thought, SFII killed more or less the 2D Fighing genre (for the masses) because its so restrictive even on medium skill level. For instance, if a medium skilles ryu player keeps you locked between his Gadouken and his Shoryuken. Or the Vega Vortex or the oppressive Honda (if you dont have fireballs). SFIII feels as if you could play much more freestyle and you dont have to use parry if you play normally. If someone uses it much better as you can, he would destroy you probably as well, without it.

And I also think, that the brutal and with their big hitboxes and fast bullets (and hard recoveries because of the upgradsystems especially if you have to upgrade speed as well) very restrictive classic STGs of the late 80s and early 90s done a compareable job to SFII in letting the masses look out for other games. The Danmakus are often more accessible with their bombs and the missing upgrade systems. But I think many casual but retro loving gamers are not a big fand of the dominating score items flying all over the screen. ^^

[Angry Hina]

The 1ccs I've got have taken me many months....embarrassingly long.

Mushi probably took a year! I have >200 hrs clocked up on that. So I'm no expert believe me. For many games it's all in the head.

Age and speed matters more with high bullet speed games like bloody Raiden III and Psikyo games. I like figuring out routes but the level of memorisation for those is beyond me. Pick the game and stick at it. I find that hard to do as I'm a gaming butterfly but it's possible for most people. Save states or training mode ........ and swearing.

You do get better and getting a 1CC changes your mental attitude. Went back to Futari after clearing Mushi and suddenly the 2nd half of level 3 wasn't so terrifying any more.

Have a detox game for variety. Balatro helps me.

Get a decent arcade stick and stay with it.

I would say: dont stick with a too hard game. Play some easier at first and you will get more fun train your skills and be faster doing so.

[Rastan78]

I dont know about the Street Fighter comparison. I always thought, SFII killed more or less the 2D Fighing genre (for the masses) because its so restrictive even on medium skill level. For instance, if a medium skilles ryu player keeps you locked between his Gadouken and his Shoryuken. Or the Vega Vortex or the oppressive Honda (if you dont have fireballs). SFIII feels as if you could play much more freestyle and you dont have to use parry if you play normally. If someone uses it much better as you can, he would destroy you probably as well, without it.

Just for a historical context SF2 was a massive mainstream hit and became a cultural phenomenon not too far removed from games like Pac Man, Mario etc. It's the game that defined the 2D fighting genre and normalized things like combos and a roster of selectable characters. There was a resulting wave of 2D fighters made bc of SF2's success.

Third Strike was a game intentionally geared towards advanced players by the devs. It was barely played outside of Japan at release even though it now has a steady following.

[Angry Hina]

I dont know about the Street Fighter comparison. I always thought, SFII killed more or less the 2D Fighing genre (for the masses) because its so restrictive even on medium skill level. For instance, if a medium skilles ryu player keeps you locked between his Gadouken and his Shoryuken. Or the Vega Vortex or the oppressive Honda (if you dont have fireballs). SFIII feels as if you could play much more freestyle and you dont have to use parry if you play normally. If someone uses it much better as you can, he would destroy you probably as well, without it.

Just for a historical context SF2 was a massive mainstream hit and became a cultural phenomenon not too far removed from games like Pac Man, Mario etc. It's the game that defined the 2D fighting genre and normalized things like combos and a roster of selectable characters. There was a resulting wave of 2D fighters made bc of SF2's success.

Third Strike was a game intentionally geared towards advanced players by the devs. It was barely played outside of Japan at release even though it now has a steady following.

Of course but capcom changed much of the game and then came tekken and everyone could do cool stuff and combo a bit. I knew no one of the SNES SFII player who knew how cancel combos work. And if I look at the things in videogame mags was written, no one of these guys knew about such an essential thing. They have kept SGII alive for too long and nowadays its really extreme to see how strong fireballs where these days.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Of course but capcom changed much of the game and then came tekken

Specifically, Tekken came late 1994, nearly 4 years after SFII came and wildly dominated the market along with spawning many, many similar type games. It's not that 3D games aren't popular, it's that 2D games became the standard norm and still are the dominant fighting genre to this day.

The rise of danmaku style games compared to less dense, larger hitbox style games parallels this. It's not that people stopped liking Space Invaders and Galaxian style single screen games, it's that people developed a taste for other more refined games instead that offer more player options and agency. There's still shmups being made that aren't danmaku or bullet hell and are getting playtime in arcades, such as Vritra.

Novice modes are a great idea but they are too easy for me. Futari's has an autobomb that needs to be optional to become useful as a stepping stone.

Futari's autobomb sucks because it's a lazy implementation; it fires the same bomb as a normal bomb, so there's effectively no reason to learn to manually bomb. A good Novice difficulty can have autobombs only cost 1 bomb so long as the bomb is super short and far less useful than using a bomb manually (Rolling Gunner's Casual and Novice difficulties are good examples of how to do it properly).

[BIL]

I knew no one of the SNES SFII player who knew how cancel combos work. And if I look at the things in videogame mags was written, no one of these guys knew about such an essential thing.

Maybe it varied around the world, but Rastan will probably back me on even mainstream mags like EGM and GamePro being conversant on SFII mechanics, in the game's original run. Quite a bit of combo mania around then, with big spreads on re-dizzy this, or Touch Of Death that. At the time I didn't know WTF either meant. The fevered air almost certainly led to Killer Instinct, MK3's dial-a-chombos, etc etc. "The kids love it!" Weaponlord was worked on by a Capcom USA guy who'd written for GamePro, IIRC, and directly aimed at SFII+SamSho diehards... Doctor Dave, I think? Those mags weren't entirely clueless, you could tell there were at least a few staffers with a real hunger for arcade mainstays. (our own David Siller / OG Sushi X, for one. and Donn Nauert and Martin Alessi, who loved them some BLAZING LAZERS n' SPAAACE MEGAFORCE

...ah man, this reminds me, Donn's hippy daughter took to posting her estimable bush online some years back. I was a horny young noob and said "Damn girl Wait! Yours is a familiar surname..." then I said "OH GOD MUH CHILDHOOD"

That's right shumps frens. this is an EGM NOSTALGIA + SPACE INVADERS BUSH REVIVAL post from yours truly, Dick Stock chairman Dr. Biruford Nishikado-sama surely recalls the untamed fields of his youth! HIDE YO KIDS, HIDE YO WIFE - well, maybe invite your wife? yall just do you aight, me and Tomo-sensei gonna bust some scoot/shoot >w>)

They even did ok by STGs! R-Type Delta and Einhander and G-Darius got some glowing coverage BITD, and as late as 2004, Gradius V reviewed well enough that I got over my fear of facing down the 9000BPH sodomy engine of my childhood (NES Life Force, I wasn't ready >w<), and plunked down my cash at GameStop! (EGM loved it but warned "good luck finishing it without Free Play," so my wiener grew three sizes the day I 1CCd it to Emcee-sama's booming-though-taciturn approval)

I also remember some UK mag not only stealing EGM's Shen Long April Fool's joke... but porting it from AC to SNES, and describing the "MEGA SATISFYING SECRET ENDING" for vanquishing the black-clad photoshop. An embarrassing day on the playground for a half-British kid, I had to explain "No they're not all like that" Kidding, I said "Yeah bunch of thieving cunts tbh, history repeats itself etc etc" (some say Capcom took inspiration for ST's Akuma, right down to him owning Bison in his intro)

EDGE circa at least 2000~2007 was great too, again lots of killer STG coverage. (again I think at least one of our own wrote for them around then)

[Firehawke]

Absolutely. I remember having a GamePro issue that gave damage percents for specials across the entire original SF2 cast, along with a list of redizzy combos.

I won't speak for EGM other than to say that I'm 99% sure they were AS deep into the materials, but GamePro was insanely gung-ho about posting SF2 material back in that era. They even had a pull-out poster of Ryu scarring Sagat with the DP.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Absolutely. I remember having a GamePro issue that gave damage percents for specials across the entire original SF2 cast, along with a list of redizzy combos.

I won't speak for EGM other than to say that I'm 99% sure they were AS deep into the materials, but GamePro was insanely gung-ho about posting SF2 material back in that era. They even had a pull-out poster of Ryu scarring Sagat with the DP.

Even Larry Flynt's famous "Tips & Tricks" magazine would list detailed combo moves for the current popular fighting games as strategy guides at the time back in the early 2000s era. On occasion, they'd cover an arcade stg title now & then including the new Neo-Geo MVS Strikers 1945 Plus release that was hot at the American arcades (with it's novel & different verizontal overall presentation).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Rastan78]

Haha didn't know Flynt was behind Tips and Tricks. Although I had an acquaintance who worked doing airbrush photo touch ups in some of his less savory publications.

Yeah there was even some coverage of tournaments in Game Pro and the like. With results, strategies used and names like Mike Watson or Alex Valle floating around the back pages.

PC Engine Fan X! It seems true that Strikers 1945 Plus was popular. Used to see those along with Raiden Fighters 2 or Jet in bowling alleys, pool halls, movie theaters, you name it.

Which brings another point. There was another dev who might agree with Nishikado's sentiment. Seibu devs were on record saying they didn't think danmaku could appeal to the widespread western audience. Also they didn't believe the unwieldy American style sticks were up to the task of intricate bullet dodging. So sticking with lower bullet counts and military themes they enjoyed a more widespread distribution than Cave, Raizing etc.

You could almost say the proof is in the pudding?