post what you beleve is the most overrated shmup

[Austin]

Space Megaforce and Axelay.

[Johnpv]

Radiant Silvergun for me. I also find Ikaruga overrated, but it at least scores some extra points for me due to the slick presentation.

Not me, but I did a quick Google search for "Radiant Silvergun overrated" and found this Reddit post that I think really covers my issues well.

Radiant Silvergun is the most overrated shooter ever made and a contender for the most overrated video game ever made.

The slowest moving object in the entire game is your ship.

Physical obstacles will kill you without giving you a chance to get out of their way. In some areas it is very easy to get locked into a position from which you can't move your ship to safety and have no choice but to slowly wait for the screen to advance far enough to die.

Enemies need to be chained or else your weapons won't be powerful enough to kill bosses before time out. Simply playing for survival is not an option.

Enemy boss timeouts are five minutes too long.

The way to ensure that you keep chains up is to not kill enemies, which is contrary to the entire god damned point of a shooter, being that you're supposed to shoot things. If you want to not-shoot things, you can play a not-shooter.

Playing the entire run takes too long.

The climax to the game's ending literally locks all weapons out, leading to the final moments of a shooter being spent with you not shooting anything.

Radiant Silvergun takes basically everything that I like about shooters and either subverts or abandons those concepts entirely. Every single time I have played the game I have found it to be completely unenjoyable from start to finish. Every single time.

The icing on the shitcake is how the game is a darling of journalists for the rare times they want to talk about shooters. I cannot and will not understand how anyone likes this game.

For the record, I'm no huge fan of most R-Type games (Delta and Final are OK, but not my favorites in the genre), but there's twenty years between the original R-Type and Radiant Silvergun, and I would say that R-Type's pacing is still better structured than RS. Given its age and how other shooters played at the time, R-Type's high reputation is deserved, and I can say that despite me not particularly liking it. I can't say the same for RS.

Everything here. This is my answer.

[Sengoku Strider]

Space Megaforce and Axelay.

You know, I might be able to get on board with Axelay. Even when it was brand spanking new I thought the scrolling effect on the vertical stages looked cheesy.

But Space Megaforce? Them's fightin' words. The stabbin' n' shootin' kind o' fightin'.

If nothing else (and there's plenty else), the game is a technical marvel. An early 1992 SNES cart with no enhancement chips has zero business pulling all this off without slowdown or flicker:



Even without the clouds with the line scrolling + transparency there are Saturn shmups that don't look that good.

You know what, I'm feeling MUSHA today.

Bah Gawd! That's Despatche's music!

[mycophobia]

F-Zero GX

wrong

[evil_ash_xero]

Space Megaforce and Axelay.

Yep. I feel the same way. I felt the better shmups on the SNES were R-Type III and Scrambled Valkyrie.

F-Zero GX

wrong

Well, he's correct as it's not a shmup. Now if he said it was overrated as a racing game, we might have to debate.

[mycophobia]

well since you had to go and give a serious response i'll point out that "F-Zero GX" is in no way a correct answer to "what is the most overrated shmup". it's not even an incorrect answer! but that is not the spirit in which I was replying "wrong". point is he's wrong and he knows it

[Sumez]

Undertale

[Koa Zo]

The comments regarding Radiant Silvergun point to "most misunderstood" moreso than "most overrated".
Overrated would suggest the product does not live up to the hype.
What Radiant Silvergun does, it does masterfully.
There's no doubt it isn't a traditional shoot em up, and it is completely understandable to not like it, but it can be argued it absolutely deserves its high regard.

I like to brag that I picked up Radiant Silvergun without ever having heard of it before.
I hadnt been following gaming for a few years, casually stopped in an Electronics Boutique looking for clearance markdowns, and saw the "New Release!" sticker on a game on the sparse Saturn shelves.
The cover caught my eye and when I saw the Treasure logo my interest was piqued. I paid a steep $54.99, heck I'd come in looking for $9.99-19.99 clearance games!
I remember debating keeping the spine card, but threw it away as I did with the couple other Saturn imports Id previously purchased on clearance (TFV, and Daytona CE)

Upon firing it up I was immediately befuddled by the snail's pace of the player's ship. Then there was the overwhelming 7 button weapon interface. ...and what is going on with the color chains and those puppy dogs?!
I had absolutely no outside references, no internet, no magazines, no other players to consult. The game was a riddle and puzzle to figure out. I wasn't sure I liked it, at times I was sure I didn't like it. But the colorful technically impressive graphics and majestic BGM and altogether tight control and presentation kept me coming back for more.
I never did figure out how to play it properly - largely because I couldnt wrap my head around not shooting enemies.
Through "Saturn Mode" I eventually saved all my weapon levels at 33 and was able to plow my way through to the end. Despite not playing it "correctly" I still had a blast getting through it and felt like a great achievement to see the credits roll.

Radiant Silvergun wouldn't be near the top of my favorite games, but I'd argue it is one of the best videogames ever produced.

[sunnshiner]

Radiant Silvergun for me. I also find Ikaruga overrated, but it at least scores some extra points for me due to the slick presentation.

Not me, but I did a quick Google search for "Radiant Silvergun overrated" and found this Reddit post that I think really covers my issues well.

Radiant Silvergun is the most overrated shooter ever made and a contender for the most overrated video game ever made.

The slowest moving object in the entire game is your ship.

Physical obstacles will kill you without giving you a chance to get out of their way. In some areas it is very easy to get locked into a position from which you can't move your ship to safety and have no choice but to slowly wait for the screen to advance far enough to die.

Enemies need to be chained or else your weapons won't be powerful enough to kill bosses before time out. Simply playing for survival is not an option.

Enemy boss timeouts are five minutes too long.

The way to ensure that you keep chains up is to not kill enemies, which is contrary to the entire god damned point of a shooter, being that you're supposed to shoot things. If you want to not-shoot things, you can play a not-shooter.

Playing the entire run takes too long.

The climax to the game's ending literally locks all weapons out, leading to the final moments of a shooter being spent with you not shooting anything.

Radiant Silvergun takes basically everything that I like about shooters and either subverts or abandons those concepts entirely. Every single time I have played the game I have found it to be completely unenjoyable from start to finish. Every single time.

The icing on the shitcake is how the game is a darling of journalists for the rare times they want to talk about shooters. I cannot and will not understand how anyone likes this game.

For the record, I'm no huge fan of most R-Type games (Delta and Final are OK, but not my favorites in the genre), but there's twenty years between the original R-Type and Radiant Silvergun, and I would say that R-Type's pacing is still better structured than RS. Given its age and how other shooters played at the time, R-Type's high reputation is deserved, and I can say that despite me not particularly liking it. I can't say the same for RS.

Everything here. This is my answer.

Mine too.

[Austin]

Those Radiant Silvergun comments, haha.. It's obvious some of the complaints are coming from individuals that have no idea what they are doing in the game. Which is kind of a shame--when you "get" the mechanics in it, that's when it starts to really shine.

You know, I might be able to get on board with Axelay. Even when it was brand spanking new I thought the scrolling effect on the vertical stages looked cheesy.

That's really my big issue with Axelay. The top-down levels are snazzy to look at, but are very weak (in my opinion) when it comes to the gameplay. If the whole thing was just side scrolling levels, I'd feel very differently about the whole thing.

The top-down levels do make it more of a fairly beginner-friendly shmup though and I think that's why it's looked upon so fondly.

But Space Megaforce? Them's fightin' words. The stabbin' n' shootin' kind o' fightin'.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I still think it's a good game, it just never clicked with me the way it seems to with others. Weak ship and enemy designs, some grating sound effects, it's dull and repetitive on the default difficulty, while pretty unbalanced on the highest, not to mention the game length is a bit too long for its own good (it takes about an hour to get through the whole thing).

I get that it was meant to be more of an extension of the original Aleste games, which I never really cared much for either. MUSHA is much more up my alley.

[Sengoku Strider]

not to mention the game length is a bit too long for its own good (it takes about an hour to get through the whole thing).

This is one of the criticisms of Compile's 16-bit shooters that I can understand. They were designing for the console market from the ground up, where short games never review well. People will say Super Aleste is the definitive version of the game because a couple of levels were cut from the Western release, but owning it I can say additional stages with palette swapped backgrounds are about the last thing the game needs.

[Austin]

not to mention the game length is a bit too long for its own good (it takes about an hour to get through the whole thing).

This is one of the criticisms of Compile's 16-bit shooters that I can understand. They were designing for the console market from the ground up, where short games never review well. People will say Super Aleste is the definitive version of the game because a couple of levels were cut from the Western release, but owning it I can say additional stages with palette swapped backgrounds are about the last thing the game needs.

After checking up on it at The Cutting Room Floor, I do want to give Super Aleste a spin as I've only ever played the US version. Looks like there are some good differences there, like a totally different ending.

[hamfighterx]

Those Radiant Silvergun comments, haha.. It's obvious some of the complaints are coming from individuals that have no idea what they are doing in the game. Which is kind of a shame--when you "get" the mechanics in it, that's when it starts to really shine.

1. There's a difference between not "getting" the game, and understanding how it works but not liking it.

2. I feel that the obtuse and confusing mechanics alone are a reason to criticize the game. If a significant portion of your players have no idea how to "properly" play that game, I think that it's legitimate to criticize the game for failing to communicate fundamental information to the player.

3. Whether you happen to enjoy Radiant Silvergun or not, the question is about games you believe to be "the most overrated shmup" . Radiant Silvergun is regularly cited as a good shmup, especially in more mainstream press/gaming discussions (i.e., people outside of your typical STG enthusiast community). It's not positioned as a good puzzle game, or puzzle-shooter hybrid, or whatever else you might want to describe it as - and I just think that, as a shooting game, it's a fairly poor representation of the genre. Even if you do take a more liberal view of it being enough of a shmup, I think we're back to the issue of a lot of players either having issues understanding the mechanics, or understanding them and just not enjoying them.

It's a weirdly niche game at best. Although there may be some people who absolutely love that particular niche, I think it's a much harder sell to a very significant chunk of players who like a more orthodox shooting game. With that being the case, seeing RSG cited so frequently on lists of "here's some good STGs" strikes me as a perfect contender to be labeled overrated.

[jehu]

ea sports

[To Far Away Times]

Radiant Silvergun was the nerd "street cred" game before the internet really took off. It's also a Treasure game so it's got some clout built in. I'd never call it a bad game but it's way too finicky for my tastes. Ikaruga shares a lot of the same DNA but is designed to be straightforward and lean instead of obtuse and overstuffed, and Ikaruga is a much better game for it.

[Johnpv]

understanding them and just not enjoying them.

This, it just isn't a fun experience to me.

[Sima Tuna]

Understanding but not enjoying describes my experience with Ikaruga. I get what the game wants me to do, but my brain is too small to enjoy doing it.

[Lemnear]

Understanding but not enjoying describes my experience with Ikaruga. I get what the game wants me to do, but my brain is too small to enjoy doing it.

I find Ikaruga relaxating, by the way...why instead Toaplan are so praised? what makes their games good? what makes a SHMUP good? I have a feeling, like "something" that is present in every Toaplan game i've tried (Twin Cobra, Batsugun, Tasujin and Teki-Paki), but i can't describe it, i feel like if i'm near some kind of epiphany .

[Steven]

Because Toaplan is the best STG developer of all time.

[shmuppy-puppy]

It’s fun to see how people like different things in shmups in this discussion.
For me the genre is defined by the immediate action it can provide. From loading it up to the first breathtaking action in under 30 seconds. That is what I am looking for in a good shmup, and I want it to sustain until I decide to do something else.

As soon as the game incorporates any RPG elements with long dialog sequences (pressing ‘a’ sequences) I get turned off and bored out of my mind. I can pick up a book if I want to read a story.
The same goes for games that try to reinvent the genre with complicated mechanics or puzzle elements. Another thing to turn me off are generic retro style graphics or monotonous blippy music. Combine that with random difficulty jumps and you have a strong contender for overrated shmup imho.

Others have their individual triggers (inertia seems to be one of them for many as is memorization heavy level design - I am totally fine with both)

It’s also funny to see how this criteria changes as you play more inside the genre. I have only started shmupping more this year (in my mid 50s) and in March I was furious at the Gunvein demo, that beat my ass so unforgivingly that I deleted it despite all the praises it received from the community)
So then I would easily have shouted Gunvein is overrated but really I was not a good enough player to enjoy it then.
Also it’s funny to see how I come up with all kinds of criteria and then realize that I enjoyed Cotton Rock’n’Roll that has a story.

In the end it seems even I can’t consistently find out what I like and what I don’t.

Todays overrated shmup might be my beloved game tomorrow.

[Lander]

NieR: Automata

[Sengoku Strider]

After checking up on it at The Cutting Room Floor, I do want to give Super Aleste a spin as I've only ever played the US version. Looks like there are some good differences there, like a totally different ending.

Well if nothing else, if you're looking to actually buy the game the Japanese version is 1/5th the price of the US release complete (which is currently averaging north of $700 USD online), or ~ 1/4 the price cart only.

[evil_ash_xero]

I really like Radiant Silvergun but the "full version" (not Arcade) is a bit gruelling. It's just too long. And it's mainly a boss rush,
so that just sorta puts a damper on it for me. I mean, it's one hell of a boss rush, but that's usually not my favorite kind of game.
The thing that probably hurts it the most for me, is where you can only upgrade your shot by chaining.

Now, I love Ikaruga. It's not too long, the stages are more of the emphasis, great music, a very interesting "gimmick". I'm down with it.
I know people get tired of hearing it's praise, and will rag on it... but it's a great shmup. It may not be "for you", but still.

When Cave were still putting out titles, this forum was basically "Cave Forum". I could understand how the bullet hell crew would think it
was overrated. But we're past that now, and can look at all of these games for their strengths and weaknesses.

Overly long, and too serious of response. Sorry.

[mycophobia]

A Treasure game that's mostly a boss rush?? Nooo....

[To Far Away Times]

Ikaruga is an incredible game and an S+ Tier shmup. It just isn't the only shmup worth playing like some people would have you believe.

[spmbx]

Boogie wings, i guess mainly from a price perspective because i never see anyone actually talking about it (probably because it is meh)

Xenon 2, not that anyone here would speak fondly of it, but lots of people that did have homecomputers back in the day do.

[Starfighter]

Boogie wings, i guess mainly from a price perspective because i never see anyone actually talking about it (probably because it is meh)

I knew a guy once that had the PCB in his cab and he loved it. Like you I felt it was pretty meh so I figured he just liked it because he didn't want to feel buyers remorse.

[Lemnear]

Because Toaplan is the best STG developer of all time.

Explain this..."theory"

[copy-paster]

RSG never clicked on me no matter what I do, I'm officially filtered and I'm okay with it.

[Steven]

Because Toaplan is the best STG developer of all time.

Explain this..."theory"

Toaplan made the best and most influential vertical shooters ever aside from Space Invaders. Go play some Hishouzame and Kyuukyoku Tiger (yes, Kyuukyoku Tiger specifically is the one you want, not Twin Cobra) and you'll see why~