Arcade and Console Versions of Games

[quash]

My mistake. Still, the point remains. Conversions are rarely perfect due to drastic differences in hardware architecture. In the case of Ketsui they cited difficulties in getting the fifth stage playable on PS2, something that by most accounts the PS2 should have the power to do.

I'm really trying to understand his argument, as he's implying that arcades are no longer useful, but he's doing it by citing things that have always been the case, are minimally inconvenient, or in some instances just wrong. What it's coming across as to me is that he's arguing arcades have never been useful, which is painstakingly ignorant at best.

Maybe arcades are going away soon. Maybe this is all for naught. But as I see it, if EXA can keep its (very reasonable, all things considered) price point, keep input lag at a minimum, and deliver games that people want to play, it could help turn things around. Right now it's just establishing itself so I'm not expecting every developer to go along with it, but it has to start somewhere.

If your concern is missing out on EXA exclusive content, let's not kid ourselves: it's going to get cracked eventually, as all PC based platforms do. Plus, I doubt there's going to be much more of a difference than what already exists between arcade versions and console ports. It doesn't make much sense from a business perspective to keep things arcade exclusive forever. Who knows, maybe they'll make said content available on other platforms as DLC later on.

I'm honestly still perplexed over complaining that arcade games don't have a rematch option. That's got to be one of the strangest complaints I've ever heard.

[agyx-groovy]

something that by most accounts the PS2 should have the power to do.

Then the fault is with inept dev programmers no?

[quash]

I wouldn't jump the gun on that. The PS2 was notoriously difficult to develop games for and ports were often times plagued by slowdown or made to run faster to circumvent it. See: DOA2, any SF game, NGBC, GGAC, etc.

[agyx-groovy]

I wouldn't jump the gun on that. The PS2 was notoriously difficult to develop games for and ports were often times plagued by slowdown or made to run faster to circumvent it. See: DOA2, any SF game, NGBC, GGAC, etc.

Then why are the arika ports on ps2 of games also from pgm nigh on perfect?

[quash]

I'm not entirely sure. It was Arika who was in charge of porting Ketsui and they themselves withheld the game from release even though CAVE told them they could still go through with it. That's how the story goes, anyways.

[Bananamatic]

if arcades are so much better then why do profits go down so much once a home version is released?
the way you describe it, I don't see why anyone in japan would do anything else for games but rush into the nearest arcade and play only there while the console market is dying
but that's clearly not the case here

[quash]

People do rush to the arcade, when a game they want to play comes out.

Understand that anywhere you go, the 80-20 rule is still in effect. Most people don't care enough to play the arcade version all the time, and I'm pretty sure it's always been this way. It may be hard to grasp, but out here, even normies will play arcade games if they're popular enough.

You seem to be fixated on this idea that just because you can play at home, arcades are obsolete. Perhaps they are for you, and if you don't like to go to them for whatever reason, that's fine. However, you're failing to see the big picture here: that the fundamentally different business model produces fundamentally different games.

These days, of course, there are games that release on console before they do in arcades, and most of them are at least decent games. In a sense, that is turning the traditional model on its head, but you also can't ignore that many of these developers used to make arcade games. It's not a stretch to say that if arcades go away for good, we'll be living through the last generation of fighters, shooters, etc. as we know them.

Part of the reason I am so supportive of EXA on principle is that the biggest problem by far right now is the lack of support from publishers/distributors. They're constantly fucking over arcade owners with expensive new boards for games that are virtually identical to their predecessors, split revenue model, etc. I'd imagine a large part of the reason new games aren't seeing arcade releases is because arcade owners are rightfully shooting down the prospect of losing money on yet another generation of games. Anything that can help reverse that is worth supporting, in my book.

[agyx-groovy]

Nah the history is as simple as this, back in the day the arcade offered something to the consumer unattainable elsewhere then slowly but surely as the console market evolved we saw a direct correlation with the dwindling popularity of arcades. I wouldn't go as far as calling arcades obsolete as they will always cater to a percentile of a specific gamer but as far as mainstream or expansion goes they have simply had their day and will never again pull in hordes of gamers against all the options available to them today. It's more likely to go the way of pinball where most sales now of new tables go to private owners far outnumbering sales to arcades.

that the fundamentally different business model produces fundamentally different games.

Yeah games that sell vs games that don't thus the arcade industries shrinking like a boner in a nursing home.

[Bananamatic]

It's not a stretch to say that if arcades go away for good, we'll be living through the last generation of fighters, shooters, etc. as we know them.

dbzf is killing it (even more signups than smash) and isn't an arcade game
same for sfv (though it's probably due to capcom money backing it)
the entire stick/keyboard/hitbox/pad discussion is a thing because those games aren't played in arcades anymore

how exactly are fighters going to die when only a small minority of players plays in arcades and the biggest games right now (smash, sfv, dbzf) never even had an arcade version?
sure, smash is full of smelly kids and also a party game but it's still played seriously as a fighter with a massive community and arcades dying probably wouldn't impact smash one bit

Part of the reason I am so supportive of EXA on principle is that the biggest problem by far right now is the lack of support from publishers/distributors

I would be supportive of the exa too if there wasn't the "exa games have to be different from the home version" thing
if the issue is simply publishers being assholes to operators then go ahead and offer a better business model so that everyone wins
if a dying industry has to resort to screwing over everyone else because you can't get customers without exclusivity then it deserves to die

it's the opposite of what m2 is doing with ketsui right now to make it as accurate to arcade as possible so we're playing the same game
exa clearly doesn't want you playing the same game so you have to go the arcade or buy the entire thing

Type-R will never be ported - arcade only to maximize operator income

You will not be able to play 3:4 ratio arcade tuned Aka & Blue on any platform period.

Aka & Blue will not have a PC port.
Any console port will be a significantly different game like the mobile version vs the arcade version.

god help us if this thing sucks in all the doujin devs like that dumb wojak meme

[Danbo]

i feel that regardless of whatever requirements exa impose, indies/doujs would want to have exclusive stuff anyway as a selling point

arcades aren't selling a game, they're selling an outdated culture

this outdated culture is kinda baked into the games we all love though. it is very hard to explain to laymen the way certain things work in STGs without relating it to arcade culture in some way or another (things as simple as continue systems and scoring systems are absolutely nonsensical to many people). in an alternate universe, blue revolver would be a much different game if it was developed exclusively for arcades. the medium is the message

i feel like arcades kind of need to exist for STGs to be all that they can be, and vice versa.

[quash]

I go to DBFZ events here in Japan. The last one had over 100 entrants, which is very good for any fighting game regardless of platform. Still, it only serves to prove what I was saying: a hardcore minority is going out of their way to play this game in person. These same people would play in arcades if given the choice, for the most part. The type of people who go out of their way to do such a thing are typically among the most scrutinizing, which makes them among the people with the most influence outside of the development team/publisher. Some of them have even been promoted to such positions, like Pachi at Arcsys.

It's not wrong to say that arcade games don't typically sell as well as their console exclusive counterparts, but at the same time, you should be careful what you wish for. It's worth noting that a lot of fighting game players don't like DBFZ because it subverts much of what makes the genre good; however, much like Marvel 3 before it, its target demographic doesn't care too much about that. To make this analogous to shooters, it's like when a bunch of people unfamiliar with the genre praise some Euroshmup because they don't know any better. The type of people that are only concerned with playing the most popular fighting game will always gravitate towards the most popular fighting game, but those who appreciate the genre past the spirit of competition it fosters will be left in the dust.

I do seriously doubt that EXA games will remain exclusive forever. Even if they do, not only am I confident that they will eventually find their way to PC by dubious means, but the investment in the interest of developers is honestly worth the hassle. Again, this is probably hard to grasp and doesn't make much sense unless you understand the Japanese mindset, but a lot of developers would probably call it quits or churn out subpar games to pay the bills if not for arcades. You can call it stupid all you want, but it doesn't change the business model that's been ingrained in the culture over here. CAVE could have very easily shat out a bunch of turds in the years that have passed since SDOJ, and yet, they chose not to. It comes down to maintaining your reputation and saving face to not only your biggest fans, but your best employees, as well. Arcsys has chosen to not take this route and I think it's going to bite them in the long run. Once the market for fighting games becomes oversaturated (if it hasn't already), they won't have a leg left to stand on, and most of their best creative minds will have long left by the time they've realized that their scorched earth strategy has left them with nothing.

I understand the frustration of not being able to play the same game as people in Japan. When I moved here, I was only able to play the fighting game I cared about most in arcades and eventually the Vita before it was properly ported to consoles. From the outside looking in, it looks like a shit show that can't possibly sustain itself. Yet, it had done so for many years already, in spite of the several issues you two have brought up, and it continued to do so until the arcade operators lost any incentive to continue to play along.

If you insist that in a post-arcade world you'll be able to get all the games you want, then by all means, continue to do so. I will maintain that it's a naive view of the gaming ecosystem in Japan and doesn't take in to account the level of scrutiny an arcade release warrants.

I don't want to rub salt in any wounds, but Japan continues to dominate the majority of shooters and fighters by a fairly wide margin. Even the foreign players that can compete on their level have often times spent a significant amount of time in Japan to up their game (I say this as one of them). As much as the Western market is growing, the sensibilities of Western players have yet to catch up in many regards, so don't expect developers to care about the Western market to the extent many Westerners feel they should. I don't entirely agree with this myself, as I think fighting games should have better netcode and console exclusive features, but at the same time, I can't blame the developers here for feeling the way they do about the Western market. Abysmal sales for the majority of their games even when ported to PC certainly isn't helping.

[Bananamatic]

(things as simple as continue systems and scoring systems are absolutely nonsensical to many people). in an alternate universe, blue revolver would be a much different game if it was developed exclusively for arcades. the medium is the message

i feel like arcades kind of need to exist for STGs to be all that they can be, and vice versa.

I don't remember anyone having issues understanding why a 1cc is a thing and why you should be playing on defaults back when everyone was playing touhou and some people had no idea this is actually an arcade genre
just compare it to speedrunning, a roguelike, or permadeath runs in stuff like dark souls
it's the same concept and high risk games are only becoming more popular recently
if anything, it's easier to relate it to something recent and popular like speedrunning than to something that's currently dying and not even a thing in most of the world

I don't want to rub salt in any wounds, but Japan continues to dominate the majority of shooters and fighters by a fairly wide margin.

I'll give you guilty gear, but sf5 and dbzf are far from dominated by japan and tekken seems to be a korean thing
shooters come down to one thing, their best players have been playing for far longer, it's not some arcade magic (if anything, we might be able to catch up much faster by sharing strategies and practicing more efficiently by learning a thing or two from speedrunners instead of doing the dumb arcade clique thing)

you'll never get anywhere just by sucking japan's cock
gotta do it the japanese way, japan first, arcades first even if I have nothing to do with them, magical invincible japanese superplayers powered by arcade hardware, go to japan to learn from the best players (while being unable to share anything you learned), might as well move to japan or quit the genre completely
great way to prevent any growth in the community

the fgc is way past japan worship, turns out daigo can lose to a kid from the dominican republic who probably never had money to "learn from the best"
turns out japanese speedrunners aren't invincible either
a gaijin won the konami arcade championship not too long ago
and we're still here with japan's balls in our mouth and absolutely no will to change it

[quash]

I'll give you guilty gear, but sf5 and dbzf are far from dominated by japan and tekken seems to be a korean thing

Funny you'd mention that about Guilty Gear. After Xrd's first year at Evo, people were clamoring about how the US had caught up to Japan because their players had made top 8. Fast forward to the year after, and we had an all Japanese top 8. Even the current top player on an international scale, Daru, is from Korea but lived in Japan and played at Mikado for years.

SF5 does have more international competition, but Japan most consistently comes out on top. As for DBFZ, you did watch those GO1 vs SonicFox sets, right?

Tekken is a game that is mostly dominated by Korea, though it also was played largely in arcades there. It may actually benefit you to read up a bit on the history of gaming in Korea, where net cafes were competing directly with arcades for years.

It's worth noting that with the only possible exception of Tekken, all of these games have made concessions to pad players that are mostly detrimental, but that's a discussion for another thread.

you'll never get anywhere just by sucking japan's cock

I don't know about that. I managed to get to be on the first and only all foreigner team to place top 3 at a Mikado GGXX tournament after playing in arcades for three years. When in Rome, right?

gotta do it the japanese way, japan first, arcades first even if I have nothing to do with them, magical invincible japanese superplayers powered by arcade hardware, go to japan to learn from the best players (while being unable to share anything you learned), might as well move to japan or quit the genre completely
great way to prevent any growth in the community

You're not wrong in saying that the main reason for Japan's higher skill level is that they've been playing longer, though keep in mind that they had the right environment to play these games in for longer, as well. The only thing I've been saying that could seem "magic" to you is that arcade games manage to maintain a higher level of quality than their console exclusive counterparts. The reason for it is really quite simple and I've already given one example as to how it works.

If you're tired of Japan worship, then go make your own development studio with blackjack and hookers. Be the first Western developer to go toe to toe with CAVE, G. Rev, etc. Hell, release your game as a bootleg on EXA just to spite everyone. See how well your ideas manifest themselves into games and shamelessly put them on display next to the giants of the industry. Until then, I will fail to see the cause for this revolution you seem to want so badly.

(As an aside, not sharing replays outside of arcades is pretty dumb. I'm glad fighting games haven't had this issue in recent memory.)

[geosnow]

Arcade is the real thing. Like playing for Real or Liverpool in the stadium.

[pegboy]

If they don't offer the same home version as the arcade I just won't buy it, simple as that. Why would anyone pay for an intentionally crippled version of the game?

[zak]

Why would anyone pay for an intentionally crippled version of the game?

No one said it would be crippled, just different.

[Shepardus]

Because it could still be a fun game even if it isn't the same game?

[SMC]

Version differences are always the bane of competitive play.

[agyx-groovy]

Version differences are always the bane of competitive play.

I don't recall anyone voicing this opinion over arrange modes or black labels? which is essentially what this will be, hell both doj wl and bl have active communities.

[SuperPang]

A lot of people seem to be missing the point that you're not going to get a home version to play at all unless the arcade version does well.

[agyx-groovy]

A lot of people seem to be missing the point that you're not going to get a home version to play at all unless the arcade version does well.

nothing new then, it's always been this way.

[SuperPang]

Rather, there's not going to be a home version without an arcade version and the arcade version can only be a success if it offers something different. There's a reason Cave haven't released a shmup straight to consoles.

[GSK]

The argument is moot because EXA has yet to announce anything that isn't an arranged port of an existing consumer game and they're locking down EXA-exclusive content so that it can't be ported elsewhere.

There will be home versions of EXA games, you'll just have to buy the AES equivalent hardware and spend ??? to play them.

[zak]

There will be home versions of EXA games, you'll just have to buy the AES equivalent hardware and spend ??? to play them.

There will be collector's editions in limited numbers from what Shou has already told us. I surmise that it will be the same as an arcade op kit (i.e. not locked to free play), but with some fancy kit/box art for the home consumer.

[Bananamatic]

There will be collector's editions in limited numbers from what Shou has already told us. I surmise that it will be the same as an arcade op kit (i.e. not locked to free play), but with some fancy kit/box art for the home consumer.

why not make a cheaper home edition?
it's pretty obvious that arcade games are expensive because they're not meant for the end user and they're meant to generate profit instead

I would unironically buy an exa for $2000 instead of a pc if it could be used as a pc because the whole thing clearly runs on win10 if stunfest is any indication
or if the games were sold at a premium like $200-300 to still make it affordable to non-collector enthusiasts (even if it has some sort of insane DRM)
or if the home version without an arcade operator license on permanent freeplay was considerably cheaper

instead, the home version probably costs more because it's meant for collectors and it includes extra crap someone who just wants to play the damn game doesn't care about
what's the fucking point here besides making money
or rather, the only reason they can do this shit for money is because of first world collectors with more money than common sense who actually pay this much for an arranged version of a game that's $15 on steam
as a result, everyone else gets fucked

the arcade version can only be a success if it offers something different

so you're saying that arcades have nothing to offer on their own and the sales reflect that
if arcades were as amazing as people say then the arcade version would be a success regardless

[zak]

You could always wait for the inevitable price drop.

Early adopters will pay a premium for the collector art and other bits - there won't be many of these, as the collector market isn't huge.

Even CAVE games took a big dip when they were still making new games. NOS Ibara kits for $200 anyone?

Look at a Type X + game. It was more expensive than what an EXA + 1 game costs now on release.

Now you can buy them $200-300.

Give it a year or 2 and you will be able to buy an EXA + mobo second hand for a lot less.

what's the fucking point here besides making money

You also answered your own question here. There isn't an arcade samaritan game dev making stuff for free. The whole point is to maximise profit.

[djsheep]

Looks like pre-orders for the system with Strania are up:

http://exa.ac/0005_strania_ex.html

[SuperPang]

why not make a cheaper home edition?

I would unironically buy an exa for $2000 instead of a pc if it could be used as a pc because the whole thing clearly runs on win10 if stunfest is any indication

I think you're on your own there.

or if the games were sold at a premium like $200-300 to still make it affordable to non-collector enthusiasts

Like zak said, wait a couple of years.

what's the fucking point here besides making money

There isn't one mate, it's a business model. If they don't make any money you don't get to play any more G-rev or Cave shmups in any shape or form.

or rather, the only reason they can do this shit for money is because of first world collectors with more money than common sense who actually pay this much for an arranged version of a game that's $15 on steam
as a result, everyone else gets fucked

Why is it your concern what people spend their money on? They're not fucking you, if anything they're giving you the opportunity to play a new game in an arcade or a slightly different version at home in a couple of years.

so you're saying that arcades have nothing to offer on their own and the sales reflect that
if arcades were as amazing as people say then the arcade version would be a success regardless

I give up.

[djsheep]

[SuperPang]

Not spoiling for a fight. Everyone's entitled to their opinion but Bananamatic seems to be saying let arcades die or release a version he can watch Pornhub on.