N64RGB - Installation question

[viletim]

Thanks again Tim. I'll check the continuity because I'm curious, but I've already rewired it using the silicon wire I mentioned above. Do you see any problems with using that?

That wire's fine. Just use something a bit thicker for power/ground.

[sofakng]

Thanks again Tim.

I'm using 30 gauge for the data wires and 28 gauge for the power and ground. I'll let you know how it works hopefully later today.

If I still have noise, should I use a 220uf capacitor between one of the 3.3v and gnd pads on the N64RGB? (does it matter which 3.3v pad? is 220uf better for filtering than 100uf?)

EDIT: I'm also thinking about cutting the S-video/luma (pin 7) on the N64 and wiring to the CS75. This will let me re-use my SNES SCART cable that is sync-on-luma. (the multi-out connector is moulded so I can't open it to modify it)

[sofakng]

OK - I'm ready to pull my hair out. I'm still having the same problem and I completely changed my wires.

Here are some pictures of my work: http://imgur.com/a/tiPsD

The soldering looks pretty good I think (especially since I'm not very experienced) and I can't see any problem what-so-ever.

I don't have a 200uf cap but I did have a 100uf capacitor. I tried connecting it like this:

1) 3.3v (pin 1) from VDC-NUS to pin 1 on N64RGB.
2) 100uf capacitor anode (+) connected to large 3.3v on N64RGB.
3) 100uf capacitor cathode (-) connected to large GND pad on N64RGB.

Did I wire that correctly? If so it didn't help. I'm really out of ideas here...

As a last resort I just moved the 3.3v from VDC-NUS to the large 3.3v on the N64RGB (to move it away from the other wires) but it also didn't help.

[zeruel85]

Could it be a sync problem? Are you using sync over composite video?

[sofakng]

I've tried using both sync-on-luma and csync (wired from CS75 to pin 3 and the pin 3 trace on the board is cut)

[viletim]

sofakng,

Your soldering looks good to me. I'm going to send you another N64RGB board. I can't think of anything else to try.

[sofakng]

Thanks very much Tim. I really appreciate all of your help!

[sofakng]

While I'm waiting for the new board to arrive, can I try to shield or remove as much interference as possible as another test?

For example, would wrapping each wire in electrical tape help? Can I add capacitors anywhere else to filter out any other noise? Would different wire by helpful?

I guess I'm asking what is the best way to the get the cleanest signal across each wire, etc.

EDIT: What about using CAT6a twisted-pair wires to connect the VDC-NUS to the N64RGB? If I understand correctly, I could use one wire from each pair to connect to GND to eliminate interference and noise? CAT6a has each pair individually shielded inside the four-pair cable.

[sofakng]

So... I decided to go ahead and try connecting a CAT6a (shielded twisted-pair) to my multi-out and the interference is GONE!

I know that if you move the analog wires away from the digital wires that it should reduce the noise but I spent a week wiring and rewiring and trying to get those wires as far apart as possible and it was simply impossible on my two N64s.

I want to thank Tim for sending the extra board (and I will contact him to return it if he requests).

I do have one last question though...

My console has an NUS-CPU-03 that already supports buffered CSYNC on multi-out pin 3. It works great with my SNES CSYNC cable as well. Can I use that for CSYNC, or should I disconnect the built-in CSYNC to connect the CS75 from Tim's board?

Thanks again everybody for so much help!

[ApolloBoy]

My console has an NUS-CPU-03 that already supports buffered CSYNC on multi-out pin 3. It works great with my SNES CSYNC cable as well. Can I use that for CSYNC, or should I disconnect the built-in CSYNC to connect the CS75 from Tim's board?

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[sofakng]

OK, I didn't know if the csync was different and needed to be generated from the N64RGB for proper operation, etc.

[holaplaneta]

I just installed Tim Worthington´s N64RGB board and it is working fantastically with my SCART to YUV converter on a sony triniton. My analog and digital cables are separated correctly inside the console. I have it with sync on luma with the correct shielded SCART cable from retro_console_accessories cables on ebay. However, when I use it with my framemeister I can see these vertical lines.

Looking into this issue I found this other forum member that seems to have the same issue.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=58178
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=58345

Is it the same issue that you encountered? So in theory if I use shielded cat6 cables to solder from the N64RGB board to the multiout on the N64 the vertical jail bars should disappear?

[leonk]

I've installed many N64RGB's and this is the first time I hear of this issue.

I'll try it on my XRGB mini, I test most customer installs on my 20" Sony PVM; I find the Sony PVM to show REAL jailbars much easier than the XRGB (e.g. PCE Duo without Tim's Jailbar fix really pop on a PVM)

I believe the problem is not with the amp or install. I believe the issue might be with the XRGB configuration. I find the XRGB to be a lot more "picky" to the input signal, especially sync levels. Doesn't take much to make it go "black".

[sofakng]

I'm at work and the links you posted aren't working but from what I can tell it sounds like my issue.

Tim said he didn't understand why it was happening and shipped me a new board to try but it also had the problem.

I've installed the N64RGB on two consoles (both were NS1 serial numbers which already have RGB output I think but only need an amp?) and they had the exact same problem.

I was able to solve it by using a CAT6 shielded cable from the N64RGB to the multi-out connector. I can't see the lines any longer but I feel that this "solution" is just covering up the problem and not fully correcting it? I wondered if I had to cut the existing RGB lines to the multi-out because it was interfering with the RGB generated from the N64RGB?

[holaplaneta]

Thanks for your support guys. I'm using Firebrand's X, N64RGB5X framemeister profile. I have played with the sync values but the issue persists.

[leonk]

...

[leonk]

OK. Finally had a chance to try the N64RGB on the XRGB mini... WOW!! There's really a problem here!

2 different N64RGB installs same problem.. Here's what I tried so far:

- instead of using Tim's wires, use my own
- use cat6 twisted pair (with grounds connected together at both ends to GND)
- remove the port and just run R, G, B, csync to it
- use Tim's original firmware, Borti's firmware, deblur on or off
- CS# into cables that need TTL CSYNC (have resistor)
- CS75 into cables that have no resistors in the cable
- installed 220uF cap between 3.3V and GND on N64RGB

No matter what, I see the faint jailbars as show on page 1. But here's the kicker .. on my PVM, it looks PERFECT. When I run composite video from same N64 into XRGB, the sky is clean. I'm using FBX's latest 5X N64 profile.

*BUT* there is 1 thing that makes it go away. If I press the "Game 1" button on the XRGB mini.

[leonk]

how I install. Notice the space between digital and analog lines. even underside you got 2 wires going down one side and 3 down the other. (r g b csync gnd).

All connections done with flux. All small pitch connections done under my microscope and tested. I know the connections are solid. This is running Bortis custom firmware.

Btw. 15 bit mode has a bigger impact on image quality than deblur!!!

[leonk]

Example of what I see. In picture mode:







In game1 mode (meister mode makes it go away as well)





Ignore curves or sharpness differences in pics. Hard to take phone of lcd close on iphone. Sharpness is the same in both modes. wondering why others havent noticed this! Or are most people using NS1 with simple RGB amp??

[bobrocks95]

Maybe those modes are applying LPF to the sync signal?

[leonk]

Yeah.. they are. But there are other modes (natural) that also have LPF.. but still shows the jailbars. But here's the CRAZY thing:

- If I use CS# or CS75, I still get picture on XRGB with same cable!
--> On NESRGB, if I solder the 75 ohm pad, this same cable will show black screen.
--> I have a different SCART cable that has no resistor in cable and it shows fine on XRGB with NESRGB in 75 ohm CSYNC. But still shows jailbars in either sync pad on N64RGB

- When I broke the 5V feed downstream (as 5V plane goes around the R, G, B, CS pins on N64) jailbars still there

- I really don't believe these are "real" jailbars. Before Tim posted jailbar fix for NEC consoles, my PVM was able to show the jailbars. Now it doesn't.

Based on past experience, the XRGB mini is much more sensitive to CSYNC levels. I think this is the root cause of the problem.

[leonk]

BTW.. looking at N64 schematics .. why hasn't anyone else talked about J4?? It should turn the LPF build into the RGB amp on the N64RGB!!!

Tim doesn't document this anywhere on his web site.

[borti4938]

Does the Framemeister have a 75Ohm termination on the sync-input and expects 'normal' sync-levels or is it a TTL input. If it is the first one, try to replace R54 (it's a 1k resistor) with a resistor with something around 475ohm. In that way, you will get standard sync level of around Upp=300mV.

The other thing which came in my mind is how the power supply input to the CPLD is designed on that board. The MaxII with 240LEs has eight Vccio/Vccint pins, but there are only three (four if you count the one 'shared' with the THS7374) decoupling caps around the CPLD. Altera / IntelFPGA suggest one per Vccio/Vccint as well as a 47uf-100uF ceramic / tantalum cap next to the CPLD (<3cm): https://www.altera.com/support/support- ... grity.html
Maybe this is a also a problem, although I don't think so. I do have ten of decoupling caps on my design.

Last but not least:
You could give it a try to add 47pF ceramic caps on the MultiAV for R, G and B to GND.

[leonk]

Hi Borti. XRGB expects 75 ohm, and it's very picky about it!

I'm not going to start modding the N64RGB. Tim has one and I assume he knows what he's doing.

If we only knew exactly what "game1" does and be able to do it via the menu. As far as I can tell, there is no way to turn on LPF. Also, I'm surprised more people don't notice this issue with xrgb (most just do the cheaper diy amp for ns1xxx??)

I'll borrow an OSSC and see if the same issue persists!

[borti4938]

I remember that I had a similar problem with the OSSC, too. At least with my 'small' development board based on a Max V with 570LEs, I cannot see that.

At least you can test point 1 and 3 what I have mentioned.

For the first point you can also add another 75ohm resistor between CS75 and the MultiAV.
For the third point you only have to add three 47pF caps under the MultiAV.

[zeruel85]

I tested two N64RGBs with two different OSSCs and I didn't notice any problem. By the way, I don't have a Framemeister so I can't reproduce this kind of problem.

[leonk]

Guys, I think we're chasing our own tails here!!

I just put firmware 1.07a on the XRGB mini, reset to 1080p and the picture is as good as on PVM!!!!

Until now I was using 2.03a.. so it's the XRGB doing something now that it didn't do before. I suspect that many are not at latest firmware!! I'll try a few other revisions and see what causes the jailbars to show up.

---

2.02 has same problem -- 1.07 still does not

I also discovered that "STANDARD" acts strange with 2.02. If I click "GAME1", noise goes away, and I click on "STANDARD" it stays away. Press picture, and jailbars are back. Click "STANDARD" again, jailbars remain. So there's something GAME1 does that PICTURE does not and STANDARD doesn't reset it!

[RGB0b]

BTW.. looking at N64 schematics .. why hasn't anyone else talked about J4?? It should turn the LPF build into the RGB amp on the N64RGB!!!

I believe that's the filter on the THS7374 chip. While that might remove the jailbars, it'll also soften the image. I really wish the THS chip could activate that filter on just one channel.

I just put firmware 1.07a on the XRGB mini, reset to 1080p and the picture is as good as on PVM!!!!

Until now I was using 2.03a.. so it's the XRGB doing something now that it didn't do before. I suspect that many are not at latest firmware!! I'll try a few other revisions and see what causes the jailbars to show up.

2.02 has same problem -- 1.07 still does not!

I remember a similar issue with the Saturn - People were getting jailbars on one revision of the firmware, but not the others. If I remember correctly, the jailbars were not visible anywhere else (PVM, capture card), only that one version of the framemeister firmware.

[leonk]

BTW.. looking at N64 schematics .. why hasn't anyone else talked about J4?? It should turn the LPF build into the RGB amp on the N64RGB!!!

I believe that's the filter on the THS7374 chip. While that might remove the jailbars, it'll also soften the image. I really wish the THS chip could activate that filter on just one channel.

As per THS7374 pubs:

"Internal filter bypass. Logic high bypasses the internal low-pass filter; logic low uses the internal filters. This pin must not be left floating. It must be connected to a defined logic state (or GND or VS+)."

As per N64RGB schematics (http://etim.net.au/n64rgb/tech/n64rgb12.pdf)

- J4 open ties it to GND (logic low) - DEFAULT
- J4 closed ties it to 3.3V (logic high)

Hence, the filter is ON by default!

[holaplaneta]

Guys, I think we're chasing our own tails here!!

I just put firmware 1.07a on the XRGB mini, reset to 1080p and the picture is as good as on PVM!!!!

Thanks for investigating so much into this! This is a great lead. I really appreciate all your hard work.