Anybody have shadow mask TV recommendations?

[mvsfan]

i have a 500 line pvm.

Im thinking because this tv is so large 36" that it will look better at 800 lines.

I have a 700 line 14" samsung S-video monitor and to me the picture looks better than my pvm.

[Taiyaki]

i have a 500 line pvm.

Im thinking because this tv is so large 36" that it will look better at 800 lines.

I have a 700 line 14" samsung S-video monitor and to me the picture looks better than my pvm.

I see. Well if you're after a sharper image then you'll probably be happy with it.

[andykara2003]

So nice to see others leaning towards the consumer sets as well. I went down the same road got into the pro monitors which never felt particularly pleasing or authentic. I then got really into collecting quality consumer sets & never looked back - my BVM sits unused and I only use my NEC for 480p..

If you live in Europe (especially Germany), or Australia, Loewe E3000/E3001 chassis TVs are top tier consumer shadow masks. I collected (and chucked) a lot of consumer sets to find just 3 perfect ones - a bnib 29" Loewe E3001 chassis, another great Loewe E3001 (25") and a (basically new) 25" 50/60Hz Sony.

I found that the thing that seems not to get mentioned much is how much the set has been used has an affect on the image sharpness. I have to admit that I'm a bit OCD about clarity, but to me there's a *huge* difference between a TV that's been used as a daily watching set and one that hasn't been used much. Most well used sets won't get great focus even by adjusting the focus pot on the chassis as they're just past it. Toshiba, Panasonic, Blaupunkt, JVC, Loewe, Metz & others all made some very nice shadow mask sets. So you can spread the net fairly wide, but a key differentiator these days is how much use they've had. A sharp, little used Panasonic will look *much* better than a well used top of the range Loewe which originally cost twice as much. A set that's spent it's life in a guest room is a good bet - although these often tend to be the on the smaller side (20-21" say).

As I say, I picked up & tested a lot of Sonys and Loewes and they were all comparatively shit compared to the virtually unused (<100 hours) 1997/8 Sony and the new/low use Loewes. The colours and clarity on the Sony in particular are phenomenal - an arcade collector bought it back in the day & never used it. I'd forgotten what a new/very low use CRT looks like! I'll take that over my thickly scanlined BVM any day..

[Guspaz]

The problem with consumer televisions is, unless you live in Europe, nothing has RGB inputs, and there relatively few televisions that offer both component inputs and native 240p/480i (non-scaled, non-digital) display.

[andykara2003]

The problem with consumer televisions is, unless you live in Europe, nothing has RGB inputs, and there relatively few televisions that offer both component inputs and native 240p/480i (non-scaled, non-digital) display.

Ah yes, sorry I forgot about that :( Australia has RGB sets as well tho..

[Taiyaki]

andykara2003 is right about sharpness/focus. I used to have an image of older sets having a gun dying out and the screen taking a (generally greenish or redish) hue. However (and maybe this is with later crt's) what I tend to actually experience is seeing used sets that have weaker focus instead. In some ways this is arguably less problematic however.


I've been able to confirm this because like Andy I've tried to find some good sets to have at least a backup and in that process I was able to find brand new old stock (in box) Sony FV300's in Virginia. they had 3 new sets and I bought two (initially started with one and went back). I already had an FV300 that I had picked up for free off Craigslist and it had some focus issues around the edges and corners, especially when texts were displayed (although focus on flat sets are supposedly never perfect, in this case it was noticeable). I've opened and calibrated the two new sets and the same games gave a very different result compared to the one that was used in a home, even prior to tweaking.


Having not had a new crt in ages it was interesting to find out that even new sets could use some light tinkering to improve geometry and convergence (they don't come perfect out of the box, colors as well, with red needing to be dialed back a little). The two aspects where a new set makes a huge difference is white purity and overall focus I found. Purity can probably be improved with those magnetic discs (I've never used any but you can see them on some sets that had them placed in the factory), but focus, I don't know if there's any way to fix that.


I'm going a bit off topic but I'm also glad to see more people like Andy going back to consumer sets as well. It sometimes feels a bit as though crt fans are all about the pro monitors these days, often because a few articles on the web calling them the messiah, that's how I ended up wanting to get in too.

[andykara2003]

Nice one :) Two new FV300's! What a find..

[FinalBaton]

Top tier consumer sets give a very satisfying picture! Even the north american sets that don't have RGB, but do have component; get a RGB SCART > YUV transcoder and you're in for a good ride

It's all about taste. I've tried both those and RGB monitors and to me, RGB monitors are more pleasing (although I'm not sure I would personnaly dig the BVMs and other very high-end crts. I would need to see them in person first, maybe I would like them. But for now, mid-tier RGB monitors seem like what I enjoy the most). Not so much because of sharp scanlines, but because of their amazing color accuracy.

But I don't knock good consumers sets at all!

[Taiyaki]

Nice one Two new FV300's! What a find..

I know. I couldn't believe it myself. I thought it was dubious at first so I bought one, brought it home, examined it in very close detail and surely enough it really was new. No scratches on the case or screen, there wasn't a single speck of dust that I could see on the insides and the tv came with transparent protective blue tape on all corners, the type that you get on new devices that you pull off gently and peels right off. The picture had pure white of the kind I hadn't seen in ages, and excellent focus even on the edges which was a surprise!

I was originally split between the FV300 and FV310 which has a high voltage regulator which the FV300 doesn't (I believe the FV310 is the only non widescreen consumer crt with this) but I sort of expect compression / expansion of the picture based on what's displayed since that's an inherent part of the technology. It may sound silly to say but I'm totally okay with that. ;p

[BazookaBen]

Well, the apartment I'm moving into next week already has a 25" JVC I'Art from the last tenant, so that makes my search for a shadow mask tube a lot easier. Hope the previous owner didn't leave it running 24/7.

[Hoagtech]

Well, the apartment I'm moving into next week already has a 25" JVC I'Art from the last tenant, so that makes my search for a shadow mask tube a lot easier. Hope the previous owner didn't leave it running 24/7.

Nice. Does it have a remote included?

You know where I'm going with this. If it has a faded color you can turn the gains down of the strong colors in the service to get your grey point back, then turn your white point up keep your image bright but not over gamma.

That sounds like a fun way to play your composite library, but if it was the older style than how are you going to be transcoding your SCART devices?

[Taiyaki]

If it doesn't couldn't he just buy a used one on ebay?

[BazookaBen]

if it was the older style than how are you going to be transcoding your SCART devices?

I made VGA cables for all of my RGB-capable systems. Then I plug them into an Audio Authority 9A60.

Anybody have experience with the service menu on later JVC sets? Any links to guides, service manuals, etc.? Will I be able to use a universal remote, or will I need to track down an official JVC remote?

[Hoagtech]

if it was the older style than how are you going to be transcoding your SCART devices?

I made VGA cables for all of my RGB-capable systems. Then I plug them into an Audio Authority 9A60.

Anybody have experience with the service menu on later JVC sets? Any links to guides, service manuals, etc.? Will I be able to use a universal remote, or will I need to track down an official JVC remote?

Oh so it does have component inputs.

I would ebay an old JVC remote. You could try your model because sellers have multiple models tagged for the same remotes. It worked for my WEGA

[accaris]

if it was the older style than how are you going to be transcoding your SCART devices?

I made VGA cables for all of my RGB-capable systems. Then I plug them into an Audio Authority 9A60.

Anybody have experience with the service menu on later JVC sets? Any links to guides, service manuals, etc.? Will I be able to use a universal remote, or will I need to track down an official JVC remote?

You might want a JVC remote just to make it easier. On my JVC D-series, the first method listed here worked for me, but you might need to do the last method for an I'Art:
http://www.riddledtv.com/forums/jvc-ser ... -t285.html

[BazookaBen]

Got an old remote on ebay, so I'm ready for service mode.

Problem is, this TV has severe linearity problems on both the x and y axis. Horzontal scrolling games look like they're moving through waves, and anything that moves towards the bottom 1/8th of the screen will stretch out significantly. It's like a fun house mirror.

But isn't it usually the case that you can only really adjust linearity on one axis, at least for most CRT's? I remember on a Sony TV set I had a couple years back, I couldn't adjust horizontal linearity even in service mode (or maybe it it was vertical).

[atheistgod1999]

I thought this thread was dead for 2 weeks. Just saying that before someone calls me out on making another thread on the same thing.

[bobrocks95]

Got an old remote on ebay, so I'm ready for service mode.

Problem is, this TV has severe linearity problems on both the x and y axis. Horzontal scrolling games look like they're moving through waves, and anything that moves towards the bottom 1/8th of the screen will stretch out significantly. It's like a fun house mirror.

But isn't it the usually the case that you can only really adjust linearity on one axis, at least for most CRT's? I remember on aSony TV set I had a couple years back, I couldn't adjust horizontal linearity even in service mode (or maybe it it was vertical).

Sony sets only have the circuitry to adjust vertical linearity, yeah.

[BazookaBen]

Sony sets only have the circuitry to adjust vertical linearity, yeah.

Well this is the JVC I'Art set, so I hope it's different. Because both axes are unacceptable at the moment.

And it was manufactured mid-2004, so it shouldn't need a recap yet, right?

[bobrocks95]

Well this is the JVC I'Art set, so I hope it's different. Because both axes are unacceptable at the moment.

And it was manufactured mid-2004, so it shouldn't need a recap yet, right?

From what I've heard it depends on whether they put in the circuitry to support it or not. Even the high-end Sony consumer sets didn't include it, but I've heard good things about the I'Art so it may have it.

[BazookaBen]

Cool, well I'll report back in a few days, when I have time to study the service menu.

[Taiyaki]

Got an old remote on ebay, so I'm ready for service mode.

Problem is, this TV has severe linearity problems on both the x and y axis. Horzontal scrolling games look like they're moving through waves, and anything that moves towards the bottom 1/8th of the screen will stretch out significantly. It's like a fun house mirror.

But isn't it the usually the case that you can only really adjust linearity on one axis, at least for most CRT's? I remember on aSony TV set I had a couple years back, I couldn't adjust horizontal linearity even in service mode (or maybe it it was vertical).

Sony sets only have the circuitry to adjust vertical linearity, yeah.

I believe this is the case for all crt's, at least it's been for all the one's that I've seen including the PVM and BVM models. You can only adjust that by playing with the yoke and also with magnets although that's an art in itself.

[bobrocks95]

Wow, that sucks if it's the case. I had always assumed that BVMs allowed for horizontal linearity adjustment too given their nature... Perhaps it's just not possible to do with circuitry and demands physical adjustments.

[Taiyaki]

Yeah the BVM's can't do it either (even through the extended service menu) unfortunately.

[MKL]

The horizontal linearity is always done through a coil in series with the horizontal yoke. Unlike other coils this is magnetically biased: rotating it's magnet (not a ferrite core!) modifies the linearity. On most sets the magnet is glued at factory for the best linearity. Only on some older sets it's adjustable.

[BazookaBen]

So I've been messing with my I'Art, and it cetainly looks better than it used to. Still needs a lot of work on linearity on both axes.

I have a bunch of questions, but first, looking closely, it seems this is a "slot" mask and not a shadow mask tube. When I look closely, I see a lot of rectangles instead of circles. That means slot mask, right?

[FinalBaton]

Yep

Slot mask is what's used on TVs, as well as arcade monitors.

shadow mask (with round dots) was used on older computer monitors

[Einzelherz]

They're both shadow masks. The dots are an older technology. The slots were introduced to be brighter (rectangles allow more light to pass through than circles) and it helped compete with aperture grille screens.

Late CRT computer monitors still have dot masks since the lower brightness isn't as much of a concern given the viewing distance.

[BazookaBen]

Thanks, that makes sense.

Guess my next question is how do I get rid of color push? You know, where the upper ranges on color bars start to bleed together. It makes brighter colors on the TV look like neon lights, not very realistic.

My PVM's definitely don't have this issue, but every consumer CRT I've used has. On my Hi-scan trinitron I was able to fix it by adjusting the GYB and GYR (I think) values, which I think deal exclusively with how the TV processes the YUV color space. But on this JVC's service menu, I don't have any setting like that, just CUT and DRIVE settings.

So are there any strategies you guys know of to deal with this issue when you have limited tools in the service menu?