Like Sonic....

[BrianC]

Marble Zone is actually one of my favorite zones in Sonic 1. I like that the game isn't speeding through and that the level is focused on block pushing and obstacles.

[Squire Grooktook]

IMO, the real problem with the Genesis/MD Sonic's isn't gimmicky or poorly paced level designs, though those do show up on occasion.

The real issue is that they are too fucking long for single sitting play sessions, especially for such laid back games.

I don't think the post Mystic Mines areas in Sonic 2 are all that bad. It's just that when you're playing a game for that long, and you're still not near the end, and the gameplay is far from what could be termed "intense", even the slightest pacing hiccups or annoying areas become intolerable for a game you're already contemplating hanging up the controller for.

Gradius V and Radiant Silvergun are also hella long, but as arcade-intense hardcore shmups, they do a much better job of keeping interest and blood pressure up, to the point that their length actually adds to the experience by making you feel mentally exhausted and nerve-shot by the end of the journey. Sonic doesn't get that kind of pass for stretching out his leisurely hop and bop platformers twice past what they should be.

[BrianC]

I think the Sonic developers should play some more Freedom Planet and take notes. It also takes cues from Gunstar and a few other games, but it does a lot of things better than the recent Sonics, especially when it comes to bosses.

I didn't think Sonic 1 was that bad length-wise, though I think the one Sonic game that really got length right is the Ancient designed GG/SMS Sonic.

[Squire Grooktook]

Was actually thinking of noting that Sonic 1 is probably the best in terms of length. After Labyrinth Zone which everyone hates, the game has the courtesy to wrap things up succinctly with the fairly enjoyable Scrap Brain Zone and Final Egg.

That being said, I remember I felt like shit during Scrap Brain Zone, but I can't tell if that was because of the horrible cold and nasal drip I had on the night I beat Sonic 1, or if SBZ was bad. I thought it was fun at least.

[BryanM]

I think CD gets a lot of praise for being grimdark and other stuff. Is it worth a playthrough?

block pushing

Ugh, flashbacks to Ocarina of Time.

I can go the rest of my life without ever having to push a crate in a video game ever again.

The real issue is that they are too fucking long for single sitting play sessions

To be blunt, this was one of the greatest strengths of the early Mario games. Being able to warp to the stage you want made playing it multiple times very tolerable, because you have that there variety. It's the next best thing to random generation. (Some would say it's ideal, even. Imagine an SMB1 with ~400 hand made levels, only having to play ~16 to clear it.)

[BrianC]

I can go the rest of my life without ever having to push a crate in a video game ever again.

Not a sokoban fan?

[BryanM]

Klotski's way better!

[Drum]

- I didn't quote the review, I linked to it. (you edited your post to fix this lol)

- It's a great example of the Old Man Murray style of comedic yet insightful games journalism.

God you are fucking dumb. Fuck you.

[Skykid]

- I didn't quote the review, I linked to it. (you edited your post to fix this lol)

- It's a great example of the Old Man Murray style of comedic yet insightful games journalism.

God you are fucking dumb. Fuck you.

Not to echo the above thoughts quite so evocatively, it's a terrible review and doesn't qualify as journalism. Sonic as a series - and 2 in a nutshell - was a small reinvention of platform gaming that required the designers to find a way to do something differently. Speed is not classic Sonic's real integral mechanic; it's more the breadth of the play field, methods for approach, and large scale characteristics that defined its play style. Obstacles had to exist so that you could find a dynamic way of getting around, over, or through them.

I'm not going to say Sonic was ever a pinnacle of game design. Essentially, it didn't want to be Mario, and certainly achieved that. But it did what it did well, and is a far more exciting platform game to plough through than that foppy, non-insightful, traditionally poor Insomnia prose gives credit for.

[Drum]

What needs to be wrong with you before you can compare that review to OMM? There aren't even any identifiable jokes or attempts at satire - it's just a standard review with a few swears scattered about. Odd.

[BryanM]

It still makes me smile to think of the guys who made Cratemaster solely to get OMM to pay attention to their real game. Best Tetris clone ever.

Be the box.

[Strider77]

The real issue is that they are too fucking long for single sitting play sessions, especially for such laid back games.

3/S&K let's you save your progress.

[Ruldra]

As a big fan of S&K, I really need to see what's all the fuzz about S3&K. Never got around to playing that but everyone says how good it is.

Anyone else played Sonic Advance 2? I really appreciated how focused on running that game is. If you're tired of obstacles everywhere and just want to race to the finish as fast as possible, this is your game. Even includes a time attack clock to keep track of your times.

[null1024]

I think the Sonic developers should play some more Freedom Planet and take notes. It also takes cues from Gunstar and a few other games, but it does a lot of things better than the recent Sonics, especially when it comes to bosses.

I didn't think Sonic 1 was that bad length-wise, though I think the one Sonic game that really got length right is the Ancient designed GG/SMS Sonic.

Freedom Planet has fantastic bosses that keep impressing me, but relatively mediocre level design and control.

The real issue is that they are too fucking long for single sitting play sessions, especially for such laid back games.

I don't think the post Mystic Mines areas in Sonic 2 are all that bad. It's just that when you're playing a game for that long, and you're still not near the end, and the gameplay is far from what could be termed "intense", even the slightest pacing hiccups or annoying areas become intolerable for a game you're already contemplating hanging up the controller for.

I guess that factors in a little. Sonic 1 isn't terribly long at all though, unless you take forever in Labyrinth or something. Sonic 2 is a little over an hour long, not terrible. Still in that 45-90 minute range.
each half of Sonic 3&K is somewhere between Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 in length [also, depending on how quickly you get through CNZ, which still takes me 6-8 minutes/act sometimes], but it saves at the start of every zone, so it's fine

as for post MCZ stages...
Oil Ocean is relatively dull, not too bad. Metropolis is a massive slog and has awful enemy placement [those stars, man], I can't think of much good to say about it. And it's three acts long. Sky Chase is okay, little breather. Wing Fortress is large and boring and mostly easy-ish.

As a big fan of S&K, I really need to see what's all the fuzz about S3&K. Never got around to playing that but everyone says how good it is.

Anyone else played Sonic Advance 2? I really appreciated how focused on running that game is. If you're tired of obstacles everywhere and just want to race to the finish as fast as possible, this is your game. Even includes a time attack clock to keep track of your times.

S3&K is just Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles jammed into one game. If you like the S&K level style, you'll enjoy the Sonic 3 portion too.
Sonic 3 Complete is a romhack that pretty much makes the two more cohesive and adds options.

Advance 2 has issues [mostly just terrible enemy placement, a trait that extends into all of Dimps' later Sonic games], but it's still fun overall. Stage design is entirely designed around you going fast, and occasionally puts you into a loop to see if you're paying attention. The game is definitely fantastic for time-attack. Sky Canyon is the only particularly dumb stage in the game. It's nice.
Getting the special rings drives me nuts though, and I gave up on that.
My biggest problem is that the chase boss fights are a really cool idea, but aren't nearly as much fun to fight as they sound.

[Squire Grooktook]

The real issue is that they are too fucking long for single sitting play sessions, especially for such laid back games.

3/S&K let's you save your progress.

Yeah, and that makes them feel less tiresome. On the other hand, having saves and unlimited continues takes what little tension there may have been out completely.

[mamboFoxtrot]

Sonic Advance is a pretty good length as well, and a good Sonic game overall (airdash ftw). I'm not sure if the level design is more sensible, or if the shorter level lengths and time attack option just makes it easier remember them. The bosses are pretty bad, though, even by Sonic standards.

Anyone else played Sonic Advance 2? I really appreciated how focused on running that game is. If you're tired of obstacles everywhere and just want to race to the finish as fast as possible, this is your game. Even includes a time attack clock to keep track of your times.

I've only played it on emulator with an annoying level of input delay, so I can't give too much of an opinion, but I actually don't like how running-focused it is. It feels like rolling was made totally pointless, and I think the max speed (with the after-images) might be too fast for a GBA-sized screen, even if they thankfully do change the camera position when you go into this*. I also don't care for the huge loops, because I liked doing loop-jumps in the other games. Still seems like it could be a fun game if played on real hardware.
*Seriously, why was this game and Sonic CD the only games to give you some decent screen space when going fast?

[Strider77]

https://youtu.be/Ef3rm9PXdCI

[ryu]

That video is still around? And still being linked to? Oh man. I watched it, or at least parts of it, years ago when people didn't stop spaming everywhere. The only good part is the one where the kid knocks over his sonic figures by accident.

I think CD gets a lot of praise for being grimdark and other stuff. Is it worth a playthrough?

It's kinda of messy to play. Worth a playthrough only for fans of the franchise I'd say. Imagine each stage is a huge maze, in which you can switch to alternate versions of each stage at certain spots if you go super fast, which isn't easy because the stages are designed around stopping you from being fast, and then you have to reach certain exact locations in some exact stages in their exact version of it to properly clear the game.

Maybe I just sucked at the game, but it's some kind of hispter's choice people claim to like because they played it while almost nobody else did.

[BrianC]

I think CD gets a lot of praise for being grimdark and other stuff. Is it worth a playthrough?

It's kinda of messy to play. Worth a playthrough only for fans of the franchise I'd say. Imagine each stage is a huge maze, in which you can switch to alternate versions of each stage at certain spots if you go super fast, which isn't easy because the stages are designed around stopping you from being fast, and then you have to reach certain exact locations in some exact stages in their exact version of it to properly clear the game.

Maybe I just sucked at the game, but it's some kind of hispter's choice people claim to like because they played it while almost nobody else did.

A hipsters choice to like it? Wat? I thought it was messy at first, but I like it quite a bit after playing through the levels more. The game is designed around finding machines in the past to fix the future, but it's only one way to get the best ending. The good ending can also be had by getting all the time stones from the bonus round. I disagree it's only for fans of the franchise, but trying to play it by straight up running through the levels doesn't give a good first impression.

[ryu]

Eh, what can I say. I'll give it another shot in a few years or so when I feel like burning money on a Sega CD.

[Lord Satori]

I think there's a version of Sonic CD on PSN if you have one of those and don't feel like spending extra money.

[BrianC]

Sonic CD is also on XBLA and iOS. It's a well done port made for widescreen, but it's not exact to the original. It does have both soundtracks, but removes the lyrics from Toot Toot Sonic Warrior. It still plays well and it adds in the Sonic 2 spin dash, if I remember correctly. I think it also has the ability to play as Tails. It's reasonably priced at 5 dollars.

[Khan]

If that was my child I would have falcon punched his mothers vagina to stop him from being born

[Strider77]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTscAsltTzo

Sonic... poop.

[ryu]

I have Sonic CD on PS3. that's what I last played it on. I'm just in no hurry to play it again anytime soon.

[Ruldra]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTscAsltTzo

Sonic... poop.

Some 15 years from now, this kid will rediscover his old youtube channel and much facepalming will ensue.

[Pretas]

Sonic CD is also on XBLA and iOS. It's a well done port made for widescreen, but it's not exact to the original.

The physics are exact if you disable Sonic 2-style spindashing (button mashing instead of button holding).

Some 15 years from now, this kid will rediscover his old youtube channel and much facepalming will ensue.

Sammy has already matured quite a bit since the internet discovered him, and now regrets his antics in videos like these. He's not an irredeemable lolcow like CWC, just a hyperactive kid who didn't get enough parenting.

[Tregard]

I'm quite surprised by the amount of negativity surrounding Sonic 2. I love that game, and it's my favourite in the series. I'm especially surprised to see people saying it's too long. It's way too easy, sure, but not too long.

I was once on holiday in a Pontins caravan park (ah, the 90s) when a Sega tour bus pulled into the parking lot. The lower deck had loads of megadrives set up showcasing the latest games, while the upper deck was used for a Sonic 2 score attack competition. Everyone had 10 minutes to get the highest score possible, and I won by blitzing through the stages as fast as I could. I was in the second stage of Underwater Ruin zone when the time expired.

You can definitely get through that game in an hour. But like Skykid said, the best thing the game did was offer up multiple paths to suit different playstyles. I've spent many a play-through exploring the slower, less apparent paths, and it's just as enjoyable.

[Strider77]

Sammy has already matured quite a bit since the internet discovered him, and now regrets his antics in videos like these.

How do you know this?

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

Sammy has already matured quite a bit since the internet discovered him, and now regrets his antics in videos like these.

How do you know this?

Guess we'll have to wait until he registers his next account now.