Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

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drauch
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by drauch »

Astraea FGA Mk. I wrote:Single player and local multiplayer: use a controller. Definitely. Remeber Goldeneye?

Online multiplayer FPS. Mouse + Keyboard.

Consoles are for single-player and local multiplayer games. Playing online on a console is silly. Use a PC. Can you not afford a PC? Your $300 laptop doesn't count. Thankfully playing online games period is pretty dumb. I know from experience. Give me back 2 years of my life FFXI. I would prefer not to have been victimized and cyber-stalked and constantly hacked, if I stayed offline this never would have happened.
A lot of PC games require you to be online now. What are they supposed to do now????

So, you're saying...

Have lots of money. Buy consoles for single player and multiplayer. LAN ONLY is the only caveat.

Spend more money on a PC because $300 laptop DOES NOT COUNT. More money to the pool. Play computer games online, even though it's silly.

Play online anyway because you aren't supposed to on a console. GET HACKED, lose more money. GET CYBER-STALKED and 2 years GONE.

So, buy a console to play only CERTAIN games, but not online. LAN is okay. Play FPS ONLY on computer, but don't get online unless you want to get hacked.

Okay. Got it.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by cicada88 »

generally wary of them and avoid them, but I wouldn't say hate

have been known to partake
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

PC gaming's death knell has been sounded prematurely for years now, and finally we're at the point where some of the basic points in that lament aren't true.

I've been messing around with Counter-Strike Nexon: Zombies lately. It has a lot of bad points, but some of the modes are genuinely fun (at least the first time through) - and it's basically a slightly souped-up 1998 engine game that could run on your microwave. Other huge online games, like TF2 and DOTA, do not require a PC that's very expensive. From a personal point of view, I'm surprised how little the annoying online players actually do impact the game enjoyment. Seriously, kids can't bother me anymore. Bad players (of various types) are still there and still a major problem, but I think I've gotten better at filtering them out. In some respects, I'd prefer more limited user controls to prevent some chances for grief - which I guess is a strategy out of the console playbook. But here we are - times change.

Console manufacturers have to execute tighter choreography to price consoles these days and to convince people that they are a good purchase. Components are much more expensive - this was well-known sometime during the previous generation, when those systems were sold at a massive per-unit loss. Today, the console manufacturers are not willing to engage in such an arms race, so they have just taken advantage of the intervening years' technology to make the new systems smaller, quieter, cooler, and cheaper - but the new systems aren't nearly as close to the bleeding edge as the 360 and PS3 were. Nor is the sticker price as good, and the failure rates? That's not exactly a pressing issue for PC gamers either, so improving over terrible still isn't a win for consoles. nVidia recently went on record saying that consoles no longer have parity with PCs - and that gap is going to widen for at least a while. No doubt nVidia is emboldened to say this because nVidia isn't in the current consoles - but the reason they aren't there is still telling. AMD is in dire straits right now so their moves don't represent the industry's future direction.

Consoles might still have a better future than AMD, which appears headed for selling low-cost bargain parts and eventual bankruptcy given that they no longer compete in research and development expenses in either of the traditional markets they are involved in. Current console manufacturers Microsoft and Sony might not have a much better future, given that neither of them have the technology in-house - unlike years ago when margins weren't so thin, and Sony had competitive-enough CPU designs and manufacturing anyway, it isn't the case that unique software support determines the direction of the market. Instead, the various players look for the best value proposition to consumers. Increasingly, there's very little that consoles offer that PCs cannot.

There are many reasons - some based on the experience of the last generation, but some still true - that the value of consoles isn't clear to buyers. Will it support new technology? How long will I be stuck with the hardware after it's obsolete? How long will they support it, anyway? Will it be too hot or have teething problems? On the PC side, as nVidia states, the gap in performance is widening so that the various trade-offs in a console - the margins the console makers expect, the form factor sacrifices - give even new cheap PC systems the ability to perform better. And things only get better when you consider that many people already have some kind of PC. Even the smallest form factor of PCs - like the thin mini-ITX - are becoming more competitive with consoles while having fewer tradeoffs.

Ultimately, consoles have to provide a better experience than the alternatives. It's easy to forget that what we call "consoles" are just one particular formulation of a business strategy, one which requires the manufacturers to do a lot of things that could be split up amongst other parties - and in fact they are. With the tools for designing cheap, console-format (i.e., basically console) systems being much more widespread than they were, and the reality of standardization in many of the necessary components, and software that doesn't need to follow the lead of a locked-in platform when there are many (more) open systems to sell on, it's easy to see that there are many things that could ruin the business plan of the current console manufacturers. In some key respects, the current generation is most certainly the result of this realization.
Last edited by Ed Oscuro on Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by mastermx »

I used to be really into fps games. Especially during the counter strike 1.6 days. I don't play them much these days unless a game is highly recommended to me.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Bananamatic »

tf2 is bloated as fuck now, the actual requirements are 100 times higher than the listed ones
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Bananamatic wrote:tf2 is bloated as fuck now, the actual requirements are 100 times higher than the listed ones
Well, no shit - times change. This doesn't help consoles much at the expense of PCs. If anything, people were having problems just getting the console makers to agree to rolling out important patches - new content was an unimaginable luxury. Yeah, I would agree with you that TF2 is kind of full of garbage now - I haven't played it in years. But there's still a revenue stream and a pathway to remain semi-current and relevant that's just closed off to consoles.

Said Counter-Strike Online / Nexon Zombies also is super bloated compared to the 2001 original (or even the version from whenever it is Counter-Strike 1.6 came out, in 2006 or so I guess).

The point is not just that it takes a lot less investment to get the same performance out of a PC - if you already have one - than it does to switching over to a console. It's not just that point plus the point that consoles are locked in stasis and that the PC side sees quite a few ongoing efforts to make games run well with different configurations (both AMD and nVidia have tried to push their auto-optimization schemes). It's also the point that you can play these games and many others on a PC for free.

There are games with strangely high system requirements (The Evil Within appears to be one of these), but compared to all the challenges in the console space, dealing with different PC system configurations is more like having teething problems than having to deal with dying by dismemberment.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by BryanM »

This reminded me that I got Left Four Dead 2 free back when Valve was giving it away.

I should make it my new year's resolution to maybe try playing it in 2015... maybe....
But there's still a revenue stream and a pathway to remain semi-current and relevant that's just closed off to consoles.
Man, the Bone was supposed to force you to install everything to play, and only gave you a 500 gb harddrive or something?

It's kind of disgusting enough to see online play for Monster Hunter games get shut down everytime a new one comes out. There's no timeless quality there..
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by drauch »

L4D is basically worthless unless you're playing with people you know and on the hardest difficulty. Some of the best times I've had playing co-op. Otherwise it's almost completely worthless.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

It was even more worthless on consoles. The only time I played it online - with my brother - the other side just decided to shoot us. It quickly devolved into a teamkill festival in the opening airport chapter. It was kind of fun.

The argument really isn't pro-PC or anti-consoles. It's about who will execute best. There isn't anything in particular which makes playing more fun on a Sony-or Microsoft branded brick, or makes multiplayer more hassle-free, than playing on a competitively priced and specified brick by a no-name manufacturer. Nearly the exact same hardware can be put together - and even better - without paying for the dubious pleasure of feeding the margins of the big guys. At the same time, the systems aren't really especially competitive on price, and there are lots of companies that are attempting to take very slim margins just to be part of a new wave of PCs which utterly destroy the current console market. And this wouldn't really hurt consumers, because such things will only be widely adopted if the "ecosystem" is there, and I'm a lot less worried about Valve's Steam supporting old games with patching and downloads than I am about the console makers doing the same with their digital content. The problem is that we've got an imperfect market where certain types of system and software tend to be associated with this or that platform - but the point to remember is that the state of technology is altering the landscape, not destroying the markets for certain kinds of software.

It's easy enough to close with a reminder about the prospects of mobile phone gaming, in the eyes of the average console gamer, in 2001. It may well be that I still like - even prefer - games which target the design methods and ideals of console gaming from that time.

Another representative discussion about big PC franchises, though, might be the $15 I paid for the entire Tomb Raider franchise. It's not necessarily the best value in PC gaming, but - the oldest games still work fine and they are as good (or bad) as they ever were. The old Valve backcatalog doesn't really impress me more - these days I'm much more impressed by the Steam service (even given my worries about the very long-term for the service, and the superiority of Good Old Games in some respects - but I don't mind things like Steam Achievements and the rest of the Steam application's services).
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Blinge »

drauch wrote:L4D is basically worthless unless you're playing with people you know and on the hardest difficulty. Some of the best times I've had playing co-op. Otherwise it's almost completely worthless.
Versus mode is really fun once you're into it. It's just incredibly hard to get into because most of the people still playing are hardcore as fuck.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Ruldra »

Used to play a lot of FPS over the years, but at some point I developed motion sickness that triggers whenever I play them. So they're out of question now :(

One of my fondest gaming memories was playing Natural Selection as a marine and with a competent player as the commander. A good commander could coordinate the entire team to work as one and it was glorious.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

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I like the tactical and/or military type stuff. I have high hopes for the next Rainbow Six, I'll never forget my Black Arrow days playing regular clan matches and learning how to bounce grenades off the sides of buildings to flush out alleyways.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by drauch »

Ooh yeah, really excited for the new Rainbow Six as well (if it actually happens.) Really dug the Vegas games, despite them being quite a bit more forgiving than some of the original titles. I want extreme squad planning, dammit.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Vegas 1 was nice, but that sequel...blagh.

I enjoyed playing RS3 lone wolf style.
Blinge wrote:Versus mode is really fun once you're into it. It's just incredibly hard to get into because most of the people still playing are hardcore as fuck.
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That was starting to happen even in the game's early days, long before the cluster of the L4D2 expansion hit. A lot of people didn't get into it for that reason - crazy Hunters, but whoops if you got Boomer or something
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by BIL »

GRR I HATE THEM naw. Lots of love in twiddle's esteemed EWW FPS thread. I'm very fond of mid-90s id and company. Looking forward to the upcoming Brutal DOOM update, that shit is addictive.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by evil_ash_xero »

I don't like them almost at all. I have enjoyed a few, but they're not something I return to, or have much respect for. I just don't like first person anything, really.

I actually resent them now, due to them being the "face" of gaming, to a large degree. I just think of some military looking guy out in the desert, when I think of what's popular nowadays.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

The original Unreal Tournament against just bots (as tough as you choose) is pretty evergreen. Only got into it lately myself, and I hardly ever play games (on anything that's not GBA) anymore.

That being said, my favourite FPP game ever is Thief II: The Metal Age (in a drak room with EAX and headphones on). I also like a good cockpit view in my aircraft games (most recently Crimson Skies on PC).
Can't think of a car game I'd like with FPP view best, but then again, rarely do I play simulations.

Any aircraft, car etc. games where you folks thought cockpit view really added to the experience? Crimson Skies (PC) has aged well in this regard and I suppose it was a thing of cult in the original Need For Speed.

Moreover, any particulary good FPP game for GBA you can think of? Doom is playable, but something of a wasted opportunity. The platform deserved better.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Immryr »

Ridge racer games are definitely better played using the in car view. It's really hard to judge the drifting with the other view.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by BIL »

Seconded on RR, in every one I've played (all PS+PS2 entries plus RR64) drifting felt totally awkward in chase view. It's like relying on secondhand information on the car's turning angle where FPV puts you front and center.

Conversely, Wipeout's PS entries are much easier in chase view, where you can get a better idea of your ship's nose angle relative to the course... but I think they're more fun in FPV, where you're hovering a few inches above the track surface as it scorches past.

The above assuming we're not talking literal cockpit view, as in behind the wheel overlooking over the dash. I think the only racer I've played much that gives this option is Daytona, where I'd just use the "bumper cam" instead.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:(in a drak room with EAX and headphones on)
You've been playing too much Dredd vs. Death lately, I see... :mrgreen:

I agree about UT and Thief 2 - those are still quite fun. Well, I didn't much care for the Thief 2 endgame, but the journey was pretty incredible. Nothing since in that series has gotten close. Interested to try out Styx sometime, though I think it's a third person game.
BIL wrote:I think the only racer I've played much that gives this option is Daytona, where I'd just use the "bumper cam" instead.
Never thought of it before, but it seems that most of the games that care to model this are the boring F1, or worse, Nascar-style racers. Usually made by the same people who churn out flight sims...why the hell can't we have another Battle Of The Solar System (Microprose's B.O.T.T.S. aka "3D way before F.E.A.R.")?
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

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The Call of Duty series has bored me lately except for Black Ops I & II (Treyarch knows how to do it better than Infinity Ward). That said, I'll probably pick up Sledgehammer's CoD Advanced Warfare when it hits $30 on a Steam sale.

Crysis was (and is) a good series. I prefer the free-roaming style of Crysis 1 & Warhead, but the other 2 are decent as well. Crysis 3 does somewhat backpedal from 2's linearity, though it seems maybe a tad shorter than 2. A Crysis Maximum Trilogy pack is something EA should consider for the next-gen systems. XBOne and especially PS4 should be able to handle these games on some great settings, if not truly maxed.

I think we're due for a new F.E.A.R. - maybe F.E.A.R. 4 done as a side-story of F.E.A.R. 3?
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

"Bumper cam" is what I use in Burnout 1&2, but as for why, it's anyone's guess.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

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Perfect dark and red faction were the last 2 i played any enjoyed.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

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Ed Oscuro wrote:
BIL wrote:I think the only racer I've played much that gives this option is Daytona, where I'd just use the "bumper cam" instead.
Never thought of it before, but it seems that most of the games that care to model this are the boring F1, or worse, Nascar-style racers. Usually made by the same people who churn out flight sims...why the hell can't we have another Battle Of The Solar System (Microprose's B.O.T.T.S. aka "3D way before F.E.A.R.")?
Quite a number of Codemasters games (GRID, Dirt) has cockpit view, as well as simulators (F1, Gran Turismo) and a few others (NFS Shift). Never bothered with that view before getting into sims, but after playing GT5 to completion with a wheel, I always try to play with cockpit & manual gears whenever I can. You probably won't drive to the best of your abilities but it's the most immersive way to play.

I don't really mind if a game lacks cockpit view, but it really bothers me when you can't select manual gears (modern NFS games).
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

I think San Francisco Rush 2049 on DC (N64?) has got a cockpit view. Midway Arcade Treasures edition appears to have it, anyway.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by BIL »

I remember the cockpit cam's FPS counterpart "helmet cam" annoying the hell out of me™ on my first playthrough of Metroid Prime, shortly after its release. The way the onscreen furniture lagged behind the free look gave me my only brush with FPS motion sickness to date. I might've just stuck with it, but luckily you've the option of fading all that junk out. Slammed those sliders down to zero right quick like.

Don't know why you'd want a translucent helmet floating about in your field of view, but options are always good I suppose.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

MP on GameCube... I wouldn't know, but on the Wii its exploration felt too slow for a Metroid game. Its FPP platform jumping was... uncalled for.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

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I played Tribes: Ascend on a damn near daily basis from mid 2012-mid 2013. The last time I had played an FPS like that was back in the days of CS 1.5, and it was nice to revisit the genre after a nearly decade long* absence.

It's a shame they never made some of the changes that game could have really benefited from (increased inheritance being one of the biggest things that game needed), but it was still good fun while it lasted. I don't know what's going on with the community these days or if there's any plans to modify the game now that Hi-Rez has dropped support for it, but I'll probably take another look at it eventually.

* It's not that I didn't play a single FPS for ten years, more that I wasn't particularly impressed by any FPS that came out in that time. I'll make an exception for Far Cry and UT2K4, but that's about it.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by Lord Satori »

I wouldn't say I hate FPS's, I just hate the ones that contribute virtually nothing to the gaming world and become more meaningless with each new iteration. I think you know which ones I'm talking about.
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Re: Do shmup fans hate FPS's?

Post by system11 »

Lord Satori wrote:I wouldn't say I hate FPS's, I just hate the ones that contribute virtually nothing to the gaming world and become more meaningless with each new iteration. I think you know which ones I'm talking about.
It's cool to hate CoD and BF now, but that's short sighted because the games are still good. Just think of it as revisions and map packs. Would you want to play the same 16 maps for half a decade? No.
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