Wii PAL component worse than NTSC component?

[ZellSF]

What reasoning is there to believe there would be difference in video quality between a NTSC and PAL console in the first place? They should be exactly the same device. PSU is external, region settings are in software. The hardware itself is identical.

There are of course motherboards revisions, but I haven't heard of any that's exclusive to either region. It is however possible that the people who claim there are video quality differences between regions are comparing different Wii motherboards without thinking about it.

I think focusing on the location the console was sold in is a huge mistake and a waste of time.

[andykara2003]

@andykara2003
I appreciate your observations and your "trust" in well respected members

I wasn't saying I 'trusted' or believed that Blizzz was definitely right - nor was he by the way.

I am not basing any of this on trust. I appreciate that you have your methodology, but I would like to go about it slightly differently for this reason: My main concern is not now whether NTSC is better than PAL image but whether there are improved revisions of the NTSC or PAL hardware with regard to the 480p component output.

Actually I agree with ZellSF - I know enough about the soft modding scene to be fairly sure that the original PAL and NTSC consoles are the same hardware wise and that the software determines the the region in the case of the Wii. I don't want to waste energy going down that route here any more as I can test it en route to sussing out the Wii revisions.

I'm in the process of buying a few NTCS Wiis for revision testing and I already have a few PAL Wiis

As for video & screen capture, seeing as I will have several PAL and NTSC Wiis from both RVL-101 and RVL-001 I can do tests with the same games by eye and the captures/screens can come later for proof.

After lots of internet research and asking on forums, I have only come up with one coherent answer so far. Of course we can't 'trust' it but it may be something to go on and the guy who wrote it seems to be fairly competent with modding & hacking:

"If I am not mistaken... Any Wii with the D2-3(and newer) DVD chip also has the upgraded component.
So you are looking for 2010+ Wii types... Model # has escaped me."

I'm starting to get replies from various other forums now so I'll get back here if anyone who is notable on the modding scene provides any further clues...

[Lawfer]

What reasoning is there to believe there would be difference in video quality between a NTSC and PAL console in the first place? They should be exactly the same device. PSU is external, region settings are in software. The hardware itself is identical.

Well its not really about regions at least not in the case of the Wii, its about game regions and for the console part its probably that some regions might have gotten some revisions not found or rarer in other regions.

[Lawfer]

I already have a few PAL Wiis

And do you notice any differences in picture quality output between these few PAL Wiis?

[andykara2003]

No - the white PAL Family editions (RVL-101) I have are exactly the same as my original PAL RVL-001. I have a black German RVL-101 coming in a couple of days...

The black RVL-101s that RetroRGB has mentioned as having the better component are all NTSC black RVL-101 though. I have one of these coming in a few days time as well.

[Lawfer]

No - the white PAL Family editions (RVL-101) I have are exactly the same as my original PAL RVL-001. I have a black German RVL-101 coming in a couple of days...

The black RVL-101s that RetroRGB has mentioned as having the better component are all NTSC black RVL-101 though. I have one of these coming in a few days time as well.

This is the most recent Black RVL-101 released in Germany:

http://www.amazon.de/dp/B009MHW3TI/

[andykara2003]

Nice one - unless they're in a bundle I think all the 101s look like that. If it's vertical on a stand it's 001, if it's horizontal with no stand it's 101

[12345]

What reasoning is there to believe there would be difference in video quality between a NTSC and PAL console in the first place? They should be exactly the same device. PSU is external, region settings are in software. The hardware itself is identical.

The hardware might be identical but the firmwares are different. To what degree this affects video output is what we are trying to find out. I could try to test it myself but I don't have any capture device to present my results.

@andykara2003
I didn't mean to force anybody to use my methology and nothing but that. I just wanted to explain why subjective experiences won't lead to a solution. Furthermore I'd like to thank you for your decdication on the RVL-101/001 side and look forward to seeing the results.

[ZellSF]

What reasoning is there to believe there would be difference in video quality between a NTSC and PAL console in the first place? They should be exactly the same device. PSU is external, region settings are in software. The hardware itself is identical.

The hardware might be identical but the firmwares are different. To what degree this affects video output is what we are trying to find out. I could try to test it myself but I don't have any capture device to present my results.

There's no logical reason Nintendo would program worse video output for PAL consoles.

Also you don't need a capture card to perform a subjective comparison. Sure a subjective comparison might not be good enough to state anything for a fact, but then the claim that there's differences in console regions would have SOME basis.

Now it has none and that might be why there's no one willing to waste their time testing it.

What reasoning is there to believe there would be difference in video quality between a NTSC and PAL console in the first place? They should be exactly the same device. PSU is external, region settings are in software. The hardware itself is identical.

Well its not really about regions at least not in the case of the Wii, its about game regions and for the console part its probably that some regions might have gotten some revisions not found or rarer in other regions.

Well, yes, but we need to know which revisions those are, the region of the console does not tell us anything about which revision the motherboard is.

[andykara2003]

I just got my 3rd PAL Wii - the black German 101. It has exactly the same component output as the other 2. I'll concentrate on NTSC Wiis from a now on I think as the NTSC 101 is the one on which RetroRGB noticed the difference.

It's worth checking out the firmware version for completion I guess but I have a feeling that if there really is a difference in quality it would very likely be hardware based. I checked my PAL consoles and they are all the latest firmware which is 4.3e.

EDIT:

It turns out that the 4.3e update came out before the RVL-101 console was released so if I'm going to be testing 101 consoles against each other and trying to check for hardware revisions within the 101 version then the firmware issue is moot anyway as they will all be the latest firmware.


From my point of view I have no problem comparing by eye. I have the consoles on at the same time and am switching between them with a very good quality component switch (Zektor HDS4). I have a pretty good eye for image quality and I am completely confident in what I'm saying regarding the comparisons. If I end up seeing a difference somewhere I'll do my best to get the best possible capture of the image.

[12345]

There's no logical reason Nintendo would program worse video output for PAL consoles.

For similar unlogical reasons such as not having Twilight Princess at the same 480p level as the NTSC version or Madworld being in 576i only instead of the 480i NTSC version. In the end it doesn't matter what there reasons are/were.

Now it has none and that might be why there's no one willing to waste their time testing it.

Well let's see if andykara2003 finds a difference between PAL/NTSC RVL-101 models.

[ZellSF]

There's no logical reason Nintendo would program worse video output for PAL consoles.

For similar unlogical reasons such as not having Twilight Princess at the same 480p level as the NTSC version or Madworld being in 576i only instead of the 480i NTSC version. In the end it doesn't matter what there reasons are/were.

Both Twilight Princess and Madworld are perfectly logical to me:

Twilight Princess was a later version, they probably wanted a softer look (less jaggies).
Madworld was converted to 576i and Sega just didn't think there was demand for maintaining a separate video mode.

I can't figure out any logical reasons why there would be a low level firmware change specifically to make the video output of the Wii worse for Europe.

[12345]

I can't figure out any logical reasons why there would be a low level firmware change specifically to make the video output of the Wii worse for Europe.

I'm not sure what differences we are talking about but maybe

they probably wanted a softer look (less jaggies)

.

[ZellSF]

I can't figure out any logical reasons why there would be a low level firmware change specifically to make the video output of the Wii worse for Europe.

I'm not sure what differences we are talking about but maybe

they probably wanted a softer look (less jaggies)

.

That would explain why they would do that. It would not explain why they would do that specifically for Europe only.

Firmware is patchable, if that was the preferred solution, they would roll it out worldwide.

[andykara2003]

Another tidbit of information - might end up being useful…

"afaik Wii uses 3 chip models for output. AVE-REL BU9055EKV, AVE-REL BU9955EKV or AVE-RVL A C8391"

AVE-REL BU9055EKV - http://www.logictoyz.com/nintendo-wii/n ... r-dac.html

AVE-REL BU9955EKV - http://www.logictoyz.com/nintendo-wii/n ... r-dac.html

AVE-RVL A C8391 - http://www.logictoyz.com/nintendo-wii/n ... r-dac.html

I'm still trying to drill down on which might have the better quality. Maybe there are other chip models?



PS - I'm spreading the net a little and posting on other tech savvy forums so I can pool the data back here. So far I've posted at Bordersdown, Wiihacks, GBAtemp, Nintendoage, Arcade otaku, Arcadecontrols and Assemblergames.

Are there any other good forums I've missed where there might be people with in depth knowledge relating to the Wii?

[andykara2003]

I haven't received my NTSC Wii & copy of Mario Galaxy yet for testing against my PAL Wii.

I was messing around with my new Zektor HS4 component switch this evening, switching between the Wii virtual console version of Ocarina of time on my PAL Wii and the bonus disc version of the same game on my NTSC Gamecube. Both consoles were on component, running in 480p on my NEC XV-29 plus monitor.

I was interested to see if there was any difference between the versions of the game graphically. It turned out that they are *exactly* the same, right down to the little sound inconsistencies when you bring up the in game menu. It then occured to me that I could make a direct comparison between the component qualities between the two.

What surprised me is that in terms of sharpness, again they are *exactly* the same. I mean there is absolutely no difference whatsoever. My Wii is an early PAL console too.

I guess this means that aside from the potential differences between PAL and NTSC retail games (a comparison I will be doing shortly), we can assume the basic component outputs are the same, or very similar - and that any differences would have to be attributed to individual games.

[Lawfer]

Well?

[andykara2003]

The NTSC Wii was exactly the same as all the PAL ones I have.

[Lawfer]

The NTSC Wii was exactly the same as all the PAL ones I have.

So basically it was as Fudoh friend said?

[andykara2003]

I just don't know - maybe other revisions of the 101 NTSC Wii are better but I want to hold off from buying consoles all the time for a while.

[Lawfer]

I just don't know - maybe other revisions of the 101 NTSC Wii are better but I want to hold off from buying consoles all the time for a while.

Yeah well, so how many consoles do you have now?

[andykara2003]

6 Wiis so far - I'd like to get more info before I go about buying ramdon 101 NTSC consoles. I did a ton of research, posting and asked a few very knowledgable people about this but have come up with very little.

[Lawfer]

6 Wiis so far - I'd like to get more info before I go about buying ramdon 101 NTSC consoles. I did a ton of research, posting and asked a few very knowledgable people about this but have come up with very little.

Nothing on retrorgb side either?

[RGB0b]

Nothing on retrorgb side either?

I haven't even had time to try. I'm really sorry, it's been a really busy few weeks. I'll try to get to it as soon as I can.

[andykara2003]

No worries :) We'll get there in the end hopefully.

[12345]

No worries We'll get there in the end hopefully.

In the meantime, have you tested the different versions of Mario Galaxy by now? Would be interesting to see if there're other games like TP which are affected.

[andykara2003]

Yes, I bought Galaxy for the NTSC 101 Wii & there was no difference to the PAL version on a launch PAL console.