Are some western shmup players lazy when it comes to shmups?

[PepsimanVsJoe]

I'm very lazy. If I manage a 1CC in any game I will consider it finished. I also tend to switch games whenever I get a game over on one. Obviously with this setup I don't expect to complete games anytime soon but I enjoy at least being competent in whatever game I play
(I can get halfway through nearly any shooter on one credit.)

And on that note I don't think it's fair calling western gamers lazy. We have the genres we're good at and the easterners have theirs.

http://benjamin.bouloch.free.fr/ben-shinobi.htm

Take Ben Shinobi for example. He's a masterful player on one hand due to his immense skill yet there's also the fact that he owns a rather small collection of games that focus on the arcade action/shooter genres(Although he does own Lemmings 1 & 2). My collection on the other hand covers everything from FPS to RPG. I end up playing hundreds of games that all play quite differently from one another so it's hard to develop skills in a particular genre, let alone in a particular game.

And what's wrong with superplays? Aside from the awe of seeing someone be amazing at a difficult game a lot can be learned from seeing them in action. I don't know a single person in my area that plays 2D shooters(Every shooter to them is either Galaga or Ikaruga) so how else am I going to be able to learn shooters? Oh yeah this forum.

[professor ganson]

When I lived in SF and got to play with IlMrm at SF state it was a great experience.

You guys were at SFSU? Dude, that's where I started Greek and Latin. Transfered to UC Davis as a junior. Maybe something about the SFSU experience makes people like Psikyo games?

I did dropped a couple hundred bucks into the Strikers 1945 Plus machine there.

I should go back there one of these days and see if there's anything new.

I was a student there in 1988-89, and I don't recall any arcade in the student union, or anywhere else. But I wasn't into gaming at all at that time of my life, just studying.

[Randorama]

zlk wrote:

The advantages of going to an arcade with an active community are immense

I couldn't agree more.

Here's the proof;

We were fortunate to speak with Japanese arcade player RAM over on click-stick (on the subject of Mushihimesama).

RAM said words to the effect; "My score is not really my score, it is the culmination of my friends' info and co-operation."
RAM's Japanese arcade friends are getting 900mil+ on Maniac Mode. He is able to share info with them and watch first-hand.

RAM added that "Your score is your score" and that he doesn't expect us to squeeze scores as well as the Japanese arcade players, simply due to the fact that the Japanese Arcade Scene is not available to us.

Back when i was a kid, a lot of people cracked down games like bubble bobble or other titles, obtaining great scores.Beside that, yeah, unless you're some kind of super-genius (because some shmups have really complex levels to figure out), it's difficult that you can go somewhere with your score, without any team-work...Interaction between me and Rob, after all, on GWG has given some decent results but

Its a fair point & I agree (with the possible exception of Rob & Rando pushing Japanese-type scores on GWG ).

no way, we're both stuck at roughly 70% of our planes' records

[FatCobra]

Lifebar? Check.

No score tally? Check.

Sounds like western developers are lazy to me when it comes to shmups....

[chtimi-CLA]

reading the progear ST thread, you realize western gamers are only figuring out the system now, in 2005, while japanese players probably knew all that 3 months after release. that says something about the importance of the arcade scene.
years ago when shinobi came out in the arcades, i was able to discuss strats with other players and watch them trying stuff. this way i was able to get the 20000 bonus on almost all stages, it would have been way longer otherwise, and some stuff i would never have found out like how the pistol enemies stopped shooting after bumping into them 10-12 times.

[DEL]

Sir - Being stuck at roughly 70% of WRs seems to be the norm. For instance, Mill's Strikers 1945 and Raiden DX records are at roughly 70%, and your Border Down 300mil is likewise.
Stepping into the last 30% is really stepping into the Pain Zone/work/frustrating pixel perfect timing and tricks etc...
More pain than I wish to endure.

chtimi - Yes the inside knowledge possessed by the Japanese players always astounds me. - From silly things like knowing that you can pass your ship straight through certain meteors on ST2 of Salamander to an invincibility trick on the 3D stage of Gradius III (after the Moai heads). Or figuring out that you need syncronized autofire circuits to be added to Mushihimesama cabs in order to exploit the game's scoring engine to its full potential. etc...

[8 1/2]

I didn't read any of the above posts, but YES. Yes, westerners are lazy fucks for the most part when it comes to games. Look at western games. There are checkpoints everywhere. You can rewind time. You can do it over. You can reload the same boss battle over and over until you finally get it.

And to be totally honest... most of the shmup-o's I've met (and it's over two dozen now) tend to use continues...

[Randorama]

Sir

- Being stuck at roughly 70% of WRs seems to be the norm. For instance, Mill's Strikers 1945 and Raiden DX records are at roughly 70%, and your Border Down 300mil is likewise.
Stepping into the last 30% is really stepping into the Pain Zone/work/frustrating pixel perfect timing and tricks etc...
More pain than I wish to endure.

Uhm, sometimes is also about hacks and various tricks related to hardware, a good 10% of the BD record is based on autofire...In some cases i'm at higher levels, if hardware/obscure knowledge/random shit doesn't matter.As long as it's about figuring out stages, i'm there.On Rayforce or Raystorm, for instance, i had roughly 90% of the top score.

About inside knowledge: well, Japanese players have always been hardcore hackers, since the early '80s it was common to fool around with settings or autofire, or whatever.Also, there's the sheer volume of practice, in the sense that when a title is played by thousand of people every day, it's a statistical matter to find out tricks...

[PFG 9000]

I didn't read any of the above posts, but YES. Yes, westerners are lazy fucks for the most part when it comes to games. Look at western games. There are checkpoints everywhere. You can rewind time. You can do it over. You can reload the same boss battle over and over until you finally get it.

And to be totally honest... most of the shmup-o's I've met (and it's over two dozen now) tend to use continues...

How does all this constitute laziness, exactly? I mean, I tend to read a book and maybe re-read it a few years down the line. If the next guy prefers to memorize his books, does that make me lazy? Or does it simply mean we like to do things differently, or maybe that we come from different backgrounds or something?

Anyway, I think maybe if you do read the previous posts in this thread you'll see some very good reasons why laziness has nothing whatsoever to do with this thing.

[sethsez]

I didn't read any of the above posts, but YES. Yes, westerners are lazy fucks for the most part when it comes to games. Look at western games. There are checkpoints everywhere. You can rewind time. You can do it over. You can reload the same boss battle over and over until you finally get it.

And to be totally honest... most of the shmup-o's I've met (and it's over two dozen now) tend to use continues...

As opposed to Japanese games, which never have and never will have any of these things.



Oh, and for everyone who talks about "lazy" gamers who don't get "proper" enjoyment out of their games... are you an excellent cook? What instruments do you play? Are you a good programmer? How are you at sports? Would you define yourself as "buff"? There are many, many things in life that someone can devote his time and attention to, and frankly, games are among the most useless. I may be able to one-life Darius Gaiden, but that doesn't make me any better than the guy who can play drums, and he sure as hell isn't lazy because of it. Of all the things to get a superiority complex about, gaming is one of the most baffling to me.

[Randorama]

Of all the things to get a superiority complex about, gaming is one of the most baffling to me.

Because, my friend, you lack an (un)healthy dose of nerdism and cult of uselessness

[sethsez]

Well, I used to have it. . But eventually I decided that if I don't put serious effort into poker or chess or go because I don't enjoy them beyond a friendly game once in a while, why should I expect people to do that with games I enjoy? In the time I spent mastering Darius Gaiden, I could have learned more intricate poker strategies, but if I don't enjoy it that much, why bother? Video games are absolutely no different.

As for the idea that Japanese gamers are hardcore and western gamers are lazy, I have an idea. Let's pit them against each other! Twenty of the best players from each region. The genre of choice?

First person shooter. Start with deathmatch, move on to capture the flag, and finish with some good old fashioned Counter-Strike. Let's see how the lazy westerners hold up against the superior Japanese.

[Randorama]

Well, I used to have it. . But eventually I decided that if I don't put serious effort into poker or chess or go because I don't enjoy them beyond a friendly game once in a while, why should I expect people to do that with games I enjoy? In the time I spent mastering Darius Gaiden, I could have learned more intricate poker strategies, but if I don't enjoy it that much, why bother? Video games are absolutely no different.

As for the idea that Japanese gamers are hardcore and western gamers are lazy, I have an idea. Let's pit them against each other! Twenty of the best players from each region. The genre of choice?

First person shooter. Start with deathmatch, move on to capture the flag, and finish with some good old fashioned Counter-Strike. Let's see how the lazy westerners hold up against the superior Japanese.

Ok, aside FPShite, the comparison would be embarassing, juding by Evolution tournaments...shmups, on the other hand, are more about mastering the game instead of being better than someone else (which doesn't stritly imply knowing all aspects of an engine). I'd say that there are fewer westerners willing to do the latter task, "western gaming" is mostly about being the alpha male pwning other males. Not that the hordes of fighting players are any different (speaking of Japan), but it's not as predominant.

Another thing: when reaching that 30-10% of "random stuff that requires ages to be discovered", the large user base does help.Trying to find out glitches or other peculiar sources of score, when you're just a few players scattered across continents, is difficult.

[cigsthecat]

Well, I used to have it. . But eventually I decided that if I don't put serious effort into poker or chess or go because I don't enjoy them beyond a friendly game once in a while, why should I expect people to do that with games I enjoy? In the time I spent mastering Darius Gaiden, I could have learned more intricate poker strategies, but if I don't enjoy it that much, why bother? Video games are absolutely no different.

As for the idea that Japanese gamers are hardcore and western gamers are lazy, I have an idea. Let's pit them against each other! Twenty of the best players from each region. The genre of choice?

First person shooter. Start with deathmatch, move on to capture the flag, and finish with some good old fashioned Counter-Strike. Let's see how the lazy westerners hold up against the superior Japanese.

No one said Japanese were better at every single genre. We're discussing shooters, obviously.

And why would you do anything with any sort of regularity if you have no interest in becoming good at it?

[sethsez]

Ok, aside FPShite, the comparison would be embarassing, juding by Evolution tournaments...shmups, on the other hand, are more about mastering the game instead of being better than someone else (which doesn't stritly imply knowing all aspects of an engine). I'd say that there are fewer westerners willing to do the latter task, "western gaming" is mostly about being the alpha male pwning other males. Not that the hordes of fighting players are any different (speaking of Japan), but it's not as predominant.

Calling it shite doesn't make it any less of a valid, skill-based genre. And let's not forget speedrunning, a relatively popular version of "mastering the engine" in the west (which isn't possible in shmups for obvious reasons).

No one said Japanese were better at every single genre. We're discussing shooters, obviously.

I was replying to 8 1/2 mostly.

And why would you do anything with any sort of regularity if you have no interest in becoming good at it?

Right. Lack of interest doesn't imply laziness. Most people in the west suck at shmups because they have no interest in them in the first place.

[Randorama]

Calling it shite doesn't make it any less of a valid, skill-based genre. And let's not forget speedrunning, a relatively popular version of "mastering the engine" in the west (which isn't possible in shmups for obvious reasons).

I'd rather getting exposed daily to (insert reactionary ideologist here) than playing FPSes.Or: i have an honest hate to the genre and i refuse to be politically correct by not calling them in a silly way.Regardless of their objective qualities...

Right. Lack of interest doesn't imply laziness. Most people in the west suck at shmups because they have no interest in them in the first place.

Most of "shmuppers" from "westernland" spend their time with issues like "omg i need to spend thousands of bucks to play a game threee times!!1!" or other things we've already covered a lot of times. A minority *plays* shmups, and it their results tend to be good, as long as quantity of hours spent on a title doesn't matter.

While i doubt that my statistical model is good, once you need to play a game say, 100 hours to have at least one chance to get a given bug/glitch/secret to be uncovered for points, you literally need a lot of people to speed up this finding: in the sense that 20 people playing consistently the game will be faster or having higher chances to find tricks. One thing is having 1k people playing Mushihime and uncovering tecniques and tricks, one thing is doing everything by yourself: like scientific reseach, i'd add.

Of course, if someone has a "i can only think in job" attitude, finding out scoring opportunities becomes a metaphysical mistery.If half of the energy spent in raving about how some engines are unfair would be spent on craking those engines, we would get better results.One big difference, from what i know, is that japanese players are far more unvaring about playing "nicely"...history of autofire and hacks in shmups, for instance.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

It really doesn't matter what type of arcade game genre you're good at (whether it be shmups, fighting, puzzlers, etc.), it is the time and effort spent that allows one to gain a better understanding of how a particular arcade gaming engine works.

Has anyone here on the Shmups forum 1cc the arcade game puzzler of Klax on the original arcade cabinet?

I know I have back in May 1994 with just one token and a score of 6,000,000+ points in about 2 to 2 1/2 hour time frame. Was anyone watching me play at that time? No, I wanted to see if I could get the highest score on just one credit (despite how hard the Klax gaming engine really is...no two Klax gamimg sessions are the same -- sometimes you win, other times, the CPU beats you). It all comes down is mind over matter, a professional arcade gamer can whiz through an arcade game title because he or she has the skills & inside knowledge to beat the CPU from time-honed experience of actually playing the game (and knowing the limits of what one can do and not to do within that particular arcade gaming engine).

The original Atari Games Klax developers weren't really that good that the Klax Jamma PCB as LX Rudis personally told me during a Q&A session about the inside history of Klax and it's various console ports during the last day of the California Extreme 2001 show. LX Rudis personally told me that he had never seen anyone play Klax as well as I did during the two days that I played Klax on an Ultracade machine...I got to Wave 100 twice in the 2 to 2 1/2 hour time frame (and finally finishing Wave 100 on my second try after my first try was messed up by a critical error judgement).

I used to get to Round 30 (starting from Round 1 of course) on the arcade puzzler of American Technos' Blockout on just one quarter in the early 1990's with a score of 500,000+ points. The arcade version of Blockout has a 100 Rounds and I've tried them all to see how they played. If you pulled off a cool "Blockout" manuever, (where all the blocks disappear inside the pit area, the CPU would randomly give you a complex piece to see how well you place that one inside the pit area...sometimes it would end the game rather quickly...other times, the game would go on -- it's all about reacting to the given situation and going with the "flow" or pacing of the current gaming session).

High scores are achieved through learning the arcade gaming engine to it's fullest and adjusting your strategies as the CPU changes the current situation, you follow with it.

Sure, I've 1cc the arcade games of Sidearms and Heavy Barrel back in the late 1980's and into the early 1990's. Did I go around asking people how to get higher scores on those particular games? No, it was a solitary effort/experience and you really had to make each quarter count (since each game was 25 cents per credit, you'd be damned if you screwed up on a single quarter gaming session). As the old saying goes, "Practice makes perfect".

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[cigsthecat]

You really have a flair for getting wildly sidetracked.

[BulletMagnet]

And why would you do anything with any sort of regularity if you have no interest in becoming good at it?

Methinks you'd have to define "good" on this point...are you "good" at a shmup when you can manage a 1CC of it, or only when you're pulling scores that are within range of the records? And how widely does said definition of "good" vary by individual game? There's (at least in the vast majority of cases) no set point wherein someone becomes "good enough" at a game for someone else to judge without debate that he's "got the right approach" or "has gotten enough out of it" or whatever. Different people have different goals for the games they play.

[sethsez]

Most of "shmuppers" from "westernland" spend their time with issues like "omg i need to spend thousands of bucks to play a game threee times!!1!" or other things we've already covered a lot of times. A minority *plays* shmups, and it their results tend to be good, as long as quantity of hours spent on a title doesn't matter.

While i doubt that my statistical model is good, once you need to play a game say, 100 hours to have at least one chance to get a given bug/glitch/secret to be uncovered for points, you literally need a lot of people to speed up this finding: in the sense that 20 people playing consistently the game will be faster or having higher chances to find tricks. One thing is having 1k people playing Mushihime and uncovering tecniques and tricks, one thing is doing everything by yourself: like scientific reseach, i'd add.

Of course, if someone has a "i can only think in job" attitude, finding out scoring opportunities becomes a metaphysical mistery.If half of the energy spent in raving about how some engines are unfair would be spent on craking those engines, we would get better results.One big difference, from what i know, is that japanese players are far more unvaring about playing "nicely"...history of autofire and hacks in shmups, for instance.

I think one problem here is that people like the compare their buddies to the best Japanese players, and base things on that. "Well, Japanese players can one credit Garegga, why can't my girlfriend?" Fact is, most Japanese gamers can't one credit these games. The niche that gets hardcore into them is bigger than the niche that gets hardcore into them here, but I think the disparity isn't quite what some people think it is. Similarly, StarCraft is dominated by Koreans, but I doubt your average Korean can be plopped down in front of a computer and know exactly the right way to counter a Zerg rush.

Additionally, people here hate Garegga for the same reason most Japanese gamers hate FPS... it simply doesn't click with them and mesh with their playstyle. If I decide to play a sport and it turns out I'm a fantastic swimmer who hates running for extended periods of time, I'm not going to devote myself to football. Likewise, I don't get any enjoyment out of futzing with ranking systems, especially in vertical shooters (I prefer horizontal), so I spend time getting better at the Darius series instead. It's still hard work, but it's hard work I enjoy doing. And of course, this again applies to games in general.

[Rob]

And why would you do anything with any sort of regularity if you have no interest in becoming good at it?

Methinks you'd have to define "good" on this point...are you "good" at a shmup when you can manage a 1CC of it, or only when you're pulling scores that are within range of the records? And how widely does said definition of "good" vary by individual game? There's (at least in the vast majority of cases) no set point wherein someone becomes "good enough" at a game for someone else to judge without debate that he's "got the right approach" or "has gotten enough out of it" or whatever. Different people have different goals for the games they play.

Decent = 70% of records. Good = 85%+.

[sffan]

Fact is, most Japanese gamers can't one credit these games.

I thought Japanese people had shmupping super-powers.

[BulletMagnet]

By one person's estimation. For others, being able to 1CC a tough game, regardless of score, makes you at least "decent." And for still others, I'm sure, 90 percent of a record still isn't good enough. The word "good" (or any sich words like it) is pretty much ENTIRELY subjective.

[Rob]

The word "good" (or any sich words like it) is pretty much ENTIRELY subjective.

Did you not see the percentages? Do you think I made them up?

[BulletMagnet]

As the saying goes, 64% of percentages are made up out of thin air, heh heh.

[oxtsu]

It's from a score attacker POV, obviously. Throw your hands up and cry if you must.

[PFG 9000]

No one said Japanese were better at every single genre. We're discussing shooters, obviously.

But we're not discussing whether Japanese gamers are better at shooters than Western gamers. We're discussing whether the "fact" that they're better indicates laziness on the part of the Western gamers. So the issue of Western superiority in other genres is very relevant.

In other words:

Q) Are Western gamers lazy because they suck compared to the Japanese at shooters?
A) No, because there are genres in which Western gamers are better than Japanese gamers, and nobody is calling the Japanese gamers lazy for that.

[BulletMagnet]

That's just the thing, it's one person's point of view; it's just that some people seem to think that there has to be one be-all-end-all definition which everyone MUST accept, or else be labeled as a "scrub" or whatever. Whatever a person's individual definition of "skill levels" or whatever is doesn't bother me; it's when someone, however strict or lenient their viewpoint is, refuses to accept someone else's personal viewpoint as valid for that person.

And honestly, I'm not "crying" here, I'm trying to make a point. If I missed any sarcasm from the previous posts I apologize, but some seriously do seem to demand that every shmupper (and gamer for that matter) conform to a single "rating system" for lack of a better word, and frankly that doesn't sit well with me.

[Randorama]

Methinks you'd have to define "good" on this point...are you "good" at a shmup when you can manage a 1CC of it, or only when you're pulling scores that are within range of the records? And how widely does said definition of "good" vary by individual game? There's (at least in the vast majority of cases) no set point wherein someone becomes "good enough" at a game for someone else to judge without debate that he's "got the right approach" or "has gotten enough out of it" or whatever. Different people have different goals for the games they play.

Well, most of the time, you're in the top ten of a game (best players i mean) when you're in the 90%+ range of the maximum score (or top player's score), which means that you're more than good. Personally, i think that anything from 1-CC to 50% of the maximum score is good (or a B in American grades), above that is excellent, with top scores (90%+) being ace.Just to define trivial things (Rob's too harsh, of course )

I think one problem here is that people like the compare their buddies to the best Japanese players, and base things on that. "Well, Japanese players can one credit Garegga, why can't my girlfriend?" Fact is, most Japanese gamers can't one credit these games.

The comparison is illogical, of course, but those percentages tend to be higher, for the sole reason that there's much more of a "gray area" of good but not outstanding (i.e. top ten) players in Japan.

Additionally, people here hate Garegga for the same reason most Japanese gamers hate FPS... it simply doesn't click with them and mesh with their playstyle.

Most people hate Garegga because the game is a fiend from hell bent on world domination of the reactionary shmup fun...in their mind."It doesn't click with me" too sucks as a definition, there's no mystic power but your (free?) will in charge of such an issue...or: you may not like a game, but in this specific case, most hate-mongers have proved to go witch-hunting, instead of just saying, "meh, i don't like it". Personally, i'd rather go to a dentist every day than play Ikaruga, but the said game is still a work of genius. Also, you're the one with willpower and personal tastes, you're the one not to like things and not things to click with you:let's be in charge of our lives

Likewise, I don't get any enjoyment out of futzing with ranking systems, especially in vertical shooters (I prefer horizontal), so I spend time getting better at the Darius series instead. It's still hard work, but it's hard work I enjoy doing. And of course, this again applies to games in general.

All Dariuses have a nasty rank system, but beside that, the work would be easier if you could have help, no?That's why i write guides, to help out people.Again, i think that a few western players sitting down and cracking out an engine would get more or less the same results as players from any side of the world...One factor may be personal taboos: i think that westerners have a slightly higher tendency not to exploit bugs or hacks.Say "autofire" and many players will frown, i bet.

[BulletMagnet]

"It doesn't click with me" too sucks as a definition, there's no mystic power but your (free?) will in charge of such an issue...

I think he's basically saying the same thing as you are, when you get right down to it...I guess it depends on who's saying it, but at least for me saying that something "didn't click" isn't saying that some supernatural force "made" me dislike it, just that certain parts of it didn't appeal to me, although they did appeal to others. Like you with Ikaruga: you acknowledge the game's appeal, but parts of it just "didn't click," so to speak, not because of unseen forces, but because you personally don't like them.

Sorry for going off-topic, but I don't think that most people who say that a game "doesn't click" with them mean anything different than you when you say "I don't like it." At least that's the case with me, anyways.