I've never been more annoyed with a shmup than R-Type Final. I'm a big fan of the other ones, but this one just pisses me off. If you die on the third level you get to go back to some checkpoint waaaaay back and then it feels like forever trying to get back to where you were because there's so much damn slowdown. Not to mention the music gets on my nerves.
And I really enjoy Darius Gaiden, but I can't stand how much it powers you down when you die. Unless you're at a really high shot level when you get hit, it's over.
Most annoying shmup ever!
No shmup has a demo showing any form of rank. This is something you usually find out by playing, and it is usually because you get better and see that things go in a different way on the screen. In general it's about three things, after all: faster bullets, different patterns, meaner enemies (more hit points, lower point-blank range). From raycrisis/Dangun Feveron on (The former was published earlier in 1998, though), there's also a rank-based approach to enemies' sequence (i.e. in some sections you can have more enemies or nastier ones if you do well and etc etc), which is more elastic than standard rank.BulletMagnet wrote:I just personally find it easier to "dare to know" when you have facts rather than vague hints and theories to go on. Proof of my own mental deficiency? Perhaps. But I've never denied that for a second.
In general, this is something you will start noticing once you get confident with the game, so it is not a basic aspect...hence, no appearance in the demos. Of course, if you keep sucking, the existence of rank may never become obvious.Well, in many shmups, dying at the very first bullet triggers some low difficulty levels, which is another consequence of rank.
In short, there are some simple tests to detect rank, it's just that they're usually considered as advanced/intermediate mechanics.
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."
I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
Well, leave it to me to come up with some obscure ones . . .
Supernova (SNES)
Music is irritating as hell. Doesn't help that you tend to die to lots of stupid deaths in this one and you have to restart farther back in the level.
Aerofighters 2 and 3 (Neogeo)
Bullet hell that's often next to impossible to dodge, and tends to get pretty silly towards the end of the game . . .
-AOTD3025
Supernova (SNES)
Music is irritating as hell. Doesn't help that you tend to die to lots of stupid deaths in this one and you have to restart farther back in the level.
Aerofighters 2 and 3 (Neogeo)
Bullet hell that's often next to impossible to dodge, and tends to get pretty silly towards the end of the game . . .
-AOTD3025
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BulletMagnet
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I think we might be sort of on two different tracks; what I'd mainly want the game to tell me outright is not absolutely everything about how the rank works, but more along the lines of what, exactly, affects it, since while, as you say, the effects caused by higher rank are largely the same in most shmups, the things that trigger them are quite different. In some games it's survival time, in others it's how high you score, in others it's how powered up you are, and in extremely complex cases like Garegga's it's pretty much everything you do. If it's really vital to getting through the game (as in the latter case), I think it's not unreasonable to wish for a quick blurb from the devs for our indulgence.
And yeah, one can "test" for rank, I guess, but when the basic idea can usually be summed up in one or two sentences it seems like a real waste of time...first trying a run without powering up, then one without shooting anything, then one in which you die quickly...again, just my opinion, but it seems like less of a "technique" than "forced de-encryption." I like to play a game "for real" (as in, going for a high score or 1CC) most of the time, with a set goal and a concrete set of rules in mind, rather than doing wonky stuff just to see what happens. But seeing as, as you say, no developer has ever bothered to do much in terms of explaining such things, all this is just wishful thinking on my part. Ah well, nothing wrong with a bit of dreaming, right?
And yeah, one can "test" for rank, I guess, but when the basic idea can usually be summed up in one or two sentences it seems like a real waste of time...first trying a run without powering up, then one without shooting anything, then one in which you die quickly...again, just my opinion, but it seems like less of a "technique" than "forced de-encryption." I like to play a game "for real" (as in, going for a high score or 1CC) most of the time, with a set goal and a concrete set of rules in mind, rather than doing wonky stuff just to see what happens. But seeing as, as you say, no developer has ever bothered to do much in terms of explaining such things, all this is just wishful thinking on my part. Ah well, nothing wrong with a bit of dreaming, right?
BulletMagnet wrote:I think we might be sort of on two different tracks; what I'd mainly want the game to tell me outright is not absolutely everything about how the rank works, but more along the lines of what, exactly, affects it, since while, as you say, the effects caused by higher rank are largely the same in most shmups, the things that trigger them are quite different. In some games it's survival time, in others it's how high you score, in others it's how powered up you are, and in extremely complex cases like Garegga's it's pretty much everything you do. If it's really vital to getting through the game (as in the latter case), I think it's not unreasonable to wish for a quick blurb from the devs for our indulgence.
There's a mistake you're making - most of the time, rank is triggered by a specific set of parameters, and hence it's obvious to find out what causes what.I really never made an historical/comparative study, but it's usually survival time, power level and (recently) perfomance section per section.Score-based rank is always indirect, in the sense that some things that will increase rank may also give you a lot of points.Beside that, most of the time the "quick blurb" is among the so-called common knowledge.Crazy taxi also doesn't tell you how to do the more complex tricks, it's something people find out and use them for their advantage.Not an ISO standard by any means, but anything that usually "improves" your perfomance is not considered "basic".
I don't think it's a wise idea, in some aspects.On the other hand, i've checked and Raycrisis (not in the game, but in the leaflet or in the marquee,i suppose the latter) clearly points out that a better perfomance triggers more enemies.Same thing on the PSX version ( i have the jp one, in case). I think they made the same on the Shikigamis, also...in short, it depends on programmers themselves.Most of the time it's a "find it out yourself", sometimes it's not. In general, it's a sort of common knowledge: it's a bit obvious, once you get used to the genre.A certain predominance of dynamic enemies sequences (i.e. more enemies/bullets etc in single sections) is also recent, as it's easier for a newbie/casual gamer to cope it with. Genres evolve, every once in a whileBut seeing as, as you say, no developer has ever bothered to do much in terms of explaining such things, all this is just wishful thinking on my part. Ah well, nothing wrong with a bit of dreaming, right?
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."
I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Zweihander
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Nanostray. fucking invisible walls....
Sigma Star Saga. the goddamn 'tunnel' battles... you die as soon as one begins, since you spawn within harmful terrain. :/ and when you have to fight large foes with the space cargo freighter.... blarg.
Super R-Type and R-Type 2. 'nuff said.
Iridion II. getting squished helplessly blows chunks. :/
Sigma Star Saga. the goddamn 'tunnel' battles... you die as soon as one begins, since you spawn within harmful terrain. :/ and when you have to fight large foes with the space cargo freighter.... blarg.
Super R-Type and R-Type 2. 'nuff said.
Iridion II. getting squished helplessly blows chunks. :/
Schrodinger's cat wrote:Yeah, "shmup" really sounds like a term a Jewish grandmother would insult you with.
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BulletMagnet
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I remember that case being outright about it, but IIRC in that case manipulating the "rank" not only gave you more enemies to shoot but actually increased the length of the stage...as such, imo anyways, it's a bit different than a "traditional" rank system.Randorama wrote:On the other hand, i've checked and Raycrisis (not in the game, but in the leaflet or in the marquee,i suppose the latter) clearly points out that a better perfomance triggers more enemies.
In any event, I guess I just like knowing whether or not "limiting yourself" when it comes to certain aspects of a game is something you'd want to do, seeing as "by default" I tend to just blast everything, collect all the items, etc., basically play the "traditional" way, for lack of a better word. If suiciding, powering up less, etc. to a certain point makes the game a good deal more manageable in the long run I'd like to at least have some idea of it from the get-go, rather than having to drudge through test play after test play in order to be able to make a guess at it...once again though, that's just me.
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professor ganson
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Raycrisis' stages are always of the same length, just more stuff to blow up.BulletMagnet wrote: In any event, I guess I just like knowing whether or not "limiting yourself" when it comes to certain aspects of a game is something you'd want to do, seeing as "by default" I tend to just blast everything, collect all the items, etc., basically play the "traditional" way, for lack of a better word. If suiciding, powering up less, etc. to a certain point makes the game a good deal more manageable in the long run I'd like to at least have some idea of it from the get-go, rather than having to drudge through test play after test play in order to be able to make a guess at it...once again though, that's just me.
At any case: rank manipulation is more a question of deciding how to approach the game, that's why it's an advanced aspect of the game.Now, the legend says a few games have notes in the booklets on rank: in that case, well, it's time to learn japanese, no
?In general though, suiciding tecniques are more for scoring purposes than for rank manipulation: starting from R-type, it's more about repeating sections or getting extra bombs (to score more) than anything else.But well, in these cases, it's up to the players to do the math, i'd add...where's the fun if programmers tell you how to the top score?
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."
I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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BulletMagnet
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I'll get right on it, heh heh.Randorama wrote:Now, the legend says a few games have notes in the booklets on rank: in that case, well, it's time to learn japanese, no
In any event, as far as "designers telling one how to get the highest score," I see your point, but methinks that in most games scoring well is hard enough to master as it is, without having to figure out exactly what triggers it first. But then again I'm just a noob, what do I know, heh heh.
In older games where restarts are more common, and you don't get an end-of-game bonus for lives remaining, suicidal tactics for score are pretty commonplace. Taking Rando's Irem example, in R-Type you can exploit stage 1-6/2-6's midstage restart and gain lots of points from the long line of drones that appear on the walkway at the top of the screen, and then continue on through the stage, suiciding on the last fast-moving container to restart the section.
Same goes for stage 1-7/2-7's restart before the boss. By suiciding, you can weed tons of points from the falling debris during the boss battle.
In Image Fight, stage 1-7/2-7's restart features a massive swarm of drones, followed by lots of large tanks. The section can give you about 100k in points, which is a lot since you finish the game (both loops) with about 1mil through regular play. Using the suicide exploit, you can get scores around the 1.6mil mark.
These techs also appear on other older games. Gradius for example has a stage where enemies materialise out of thin air, and will drop powerups when destroyed. These sections can be handled in the same suicidal manner for score.
In Garegga's case, advanced players will find that there are very few occasions where you need to suicide to decrease rank, and instead the main bulk of the tactical suicides are used to gain points through Weapon usage. Like the older games, suicidal tactics for score comes with a lot of obvious risk, but for players dedicated to score - and players used to using these kinds of tricks from experience with older games - the risk is worth it.
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Same goes for stage 1-7/2-7's restart before the boss. By suiciding, you can weed tons of points from the falling debris during the boss battle.
In Image Fight, stage 1-7/2-7's restart features a massive swarm of drones, followed by lots of large tanks. The section can give you about 100k in points, which is a lot since you finish the game (both loops) with about 1mil through regular play. Using the suicide exploit, you can get scores around the 1.6mil mark.
These techs also appear on other older games. Gradius for example has a stage where enemies materialise out of thin air, and will drop powerups when destroyed. These sections can be handled in the same suicidal manner for score.
In Garegga's case, advanced players will find that there are very few occasions where you need to suicide to decrease rank, and instead the main bulk of the tactical suicides are used to gain points through Weapon usage. Like the older games, suicidal tactics for score comes with a lot of obvious risk, but for players dedicated to score - and players used to using these kinds of tricks from experience with older games - the risk is worth it.
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Randorama wrote:In general though, suiciding tecniques are more for scoring purposes than for rank manipulation: starting from R-type, it's more about repeating sections or getting extra bombs (to score more) than anything else.But well, in these cases, it's up to the players to do the math, i'd add...where's the fun if programmers tell you how to the top score?
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gameoverDude
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I have to say it's the R-Type series. The memorization factor here is too great- it's basically to the point of "HEY! You don't belong here, you're dead" at some spots and you don't have much room to improvise. Checkpoints are another pet hate of mine- I'm thankful they're phased out somewhat now.
Give me Giga Wing, Battle Garegga, Ketsui, DDPDOJ (where memorization is needed mainly if you go for chains) et al. before R-Type.
Non-transparent foregrounds are a pain. I'll go off-topic a moment and slap Super Contra around for this. The early part of Stage 3 has some trees in the front layer that will interfere with your view of the player character and all enemies.
Ikaruga just isn't really my style, even though it's a good game with excellent graphics. The shooting accuracy requirement visited on you by this game's chain system is my turnoff.
Darius II's death penalty is too severe. You lose EVERYTHING, except for maybe the armor level you had built up. Kiss your run goodbye if you're in the 5th zone or later.
Give me Giga Wing, Battle Garegga, Ketsui, DDPDOJ (where memorization is needed mainly if you go for chains) et al. before R-Type.
Non-transparent foregrounds are a pain. I'll go off-topic a moment and slap Super Contra around for this. The early part of Stage 3 has some trees in the front layer that will interfere with your view of the player character and all enemies.
Ikaruga just isn't really my style, even though it's a good game with excellent graphics. The shooting accuracy requirement visited on you by this game's chain system is my turnoff.
Darius II's death penalty is too severe. You lose EVERYTHING, except for maybe the armor level you had built up. Kiss your run goodbye if you're in the 5th zone or later.
Kinect? KIN NOT.
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Shatterhand
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Not only do you lose everything when you die, but it also takes awhile to power up too, if I remember correctly.Shatterhand wrote:Yes, Darius 2 is annoying. What the hell were they thinking? It's worse than Gradius.
There's no checkpoint, you just get back just where you died with just your pea shot.
If you are in 5th zone or later, you just can't destroy ANYTHING!
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Shatterhand
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It takes forever to power up
YOu only get some decent power around level 3 if I remember correctly. From level 4 upwards, if you die you are screwed. Not only you don't get enough firepower, you also will NEVER be able to get the same firepower you had before you died.
I love Darius 2, but it has to be taken as a 1-life shmup.
YOu only get some decent power around level 3 if I remember correctly. From level 4 upwards, if you die you are screwed. Not only you don't get enough firepower, you also will NEVER be able to get the same firepower you had before you died.
I love Darius 2, but it has to be taken as a 1-life shmup.
I know that all too well. Your very luckey to make it past the 2nd and 3rd levels. Then the moai stageJon wrote:Gradius III on the PS2 double pack makes me want to walk into the path of oncoming traffic...
.If you die there the check point mid way through will put you in a wall and if your not paying attention.... Well we all know what happens to a vic viper when it hits a wall right?"There is always an exception to every rule."
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chtimi-CLA
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i'm currently playing DOJ and man can it be annoying.
your timing is off by 10ms, you lose 60 millions. a power up flies toward you while you're trying to dodge and lasering, chain broken. you fail to suicide on the 2nd boss because of the small collision, meanwhile the bomb you spared flies offscreen. you rush to grab a hyper to save your chain, but in your haste you push B 10ms too early, a bomb comes out and breaks your chain and maximum. you're at the 1st boss and as you fill a hyper meter, bullets transform into stars, except the last and fastest blue needles which nail you by surprise.
etc etc..
your timing is off by 10ms, you lose 60 millions. a power up flies toward you while you're trying to dodge and lasering, chain broken. you fail to suicide on the 2nd boss because of the small collision, meanwhile the bomb you spared flies offscreen. you rush to grab a hyper to save your chain, but in your haste you push B 10ms too early, a bomb comes out and breaks your chain and maximum. you're at the 1st boss and as you fill a hyper meter, bullets transform into stars, except the last and fastest blue needles which nail you by surprise.
etc etc..
This really isn't true and seems to be a common misconception.Andi wrote: Ikaruga is also annoying because there is only one way to approach every encounter in the game. Fuck that garbage.
There's always multiple ways to chain every level, some easier than others, some allow more optimal bullet eating but carry a great risk of death. There is much more freedom than in DDP for example. There are also lots of different ways to tackle the bosses, particularly the bosses in the final chapters.
Back on topic I find Mushihime-sama's Original mode very annoying. Well, Maniac mode is annoying too.
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dave4shmups
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PepsimanVsJoe
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...
Darius 2 by far....
Gradius 3 arcade is worse still.
Soukygurentai has a habit of masking bullets in enemy explosions, or whenever I pass by an enemy and they cap me point blank..thanks a lot.
Gradius 3 arcade is worse still.
Soukygurentai has a habit of masking bullets in enemy explosions, or whenever I pass by an enemy and they cap me point blank..thanks a lot.
Ikaruga was pretty annoying for me, the chaining is WAY TOO ANAL!!! Second, it doesn't feel quite like a shmup, more like a puzzle game in shmup clothing.
Gradius games have this annoying habit where they're easy to 1-life, but die in the wrong place and you can kiss all your lives good-bye.
Gradius games have this annoying habit where they're easy to 1-life, but die in the wrong place and you can kiss all your lives good-bye.
Shmups: It's all about blowing stuff up!
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WingedMayhem
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BulletMagnet
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Believe it or not the chaining in RSG is even more anal than that, since you have to stick with one color the whole time to keep the chain going. On the flipside, RSG offers other ways to increase your score besides chaining, though they're not as vital.FatCobra wrote:Ikaruga was pretty annoying for me, the chaining is WAY TOO ANAL!!!
