Discussing shooter elitism with Vintagevideogamegeek

[rancor]

This thread sounds like it's trying to address a problem that doesn't actually exist, at least not in any widespread sense.

I think the OP may be trying to poke us with sticks, then watch us flip-the-fuck out and hope that itself is article worthy.

[Giest118]

Shmup elitism is when you say "learn to play."

[rancor]

Shmup elitism is when you say "learn to play."

I just went up to the search box and typed in "learn to play" (with quotes). ACSeraph said it once in a helpful matter, and Trap15 said it once in an ironic matter. I didn't see anything mean spirited, and I searched back to March 2012. This is a non-issue.

[Giest118]

Shmup elitism is when you say "learn to play."

I just went up to the search box and typed in "learn to play" (with quotes). ACSeraph said it once in a helpful matter, and Trap15 said it once in an ironic matter. I didn't see anything mean spirited, and I searched back to March 2012. This is all overblown.

It's sometimes shortened to "lrn2ply" or "learn 2 play." I see it used whenever someone says they don't like a game.

[rancor]

Searched both. the only offending post was this one........ from 2008:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... y+#p650825

I'm confident I could tell you which version is which with no confusion at all. If you think there's a placebo effect then you need to Learn 2 Play, Noob.

[Giest118]

Strange that I would remember a post from four years before I joined. Maybe the search function is shit.

(it always is on forums bro)

EDIT: I apologize, the term is actually "learn2play". That one yields more interesting results. Such as this.
Also, how do you exist on this forum for three years and never be exposed to this? What the fuck have you been doing since you've been here?

[rancor]

Once. in 2011. Good find.

Oh, I've seen it plenty of times. Ironically, mockingly, with sarcasm, etc. There are few examples where it's said in a serious "lrn2ply faggot" as the OP and you seem convinced happens everyday here.

What the fuck have you been doing since you've been here?

Ping! I believe that's the kind of forum elitism we're looking for.

[Giest118]

God, why do I always assume people are capable of using their brains? I really should know better by now.

Whenever someone says they don't like a shmup, or even a particular aspect of a shmup, on this forum, there will necessarily be some asshole who jumps in and tells them that they suck too much/don't get it/aren't awesome enough. This is the essence of a "learn2play"; it basically means your opinion is invalid until you have complete and utter mastery of a game.

If that sounds retarded, that's because it is. I don't know why it happens so much.

[Despatche]

no, what it means is that people need to actually give an honest go at playing the game, instead of the usual giving up after two seconds and declaring that the game is "bad" because they have no idea what they're doing. this became so common that a joke was called for, and l2p was born; where, i do not know.
__________
anyway, topic: the concept of an "elite" isn't "good" or "bad", nor is it even a belief; it is literally the entire point of knowledge and skill. those who have the knowledge can better decide on matters related to that knowledge better than those who do not have, that is fact. further, there is absolutely no reason not to spread this knowledge to others, but there is reason to not take others seriously until they have the knowledge.

long story short, you need to make a distinction; "elite" is the fact, while "elitism" is indeed the terrible opinion of which you speak, that mockery of the system. the best part is that it seems everyone in this thread seems to have gotten this point without ever needing to have phrased it "right". such a basic and universal fact of reality, kinda like "skill is memorization and execution".

here's the mistake you need to watch out for:

Specifically striving to be better than everyone else is exactly what will eventually make you better than everyone else.

It's a kind of competitive elitism, and it's the driving force behind the entire fighting game community. Sometimes you might come off as an elitist dick to scrubby players, but that's only because you are trying to help them stop being such scrubs.

If anything I think shmup players could benefit from this mindset.

be careful. we need to avoid the "opinion" part and stick to the "fact" part. we should be truly "better than everyone else" in terms of what we can do compared to others, not in terms of our opinion of ourselves (for that is the true nature is this whole "elitism" thing, and leads to some sort of self-harm).

[trap15]

Well written post. Sums everything up in a pretty concise and sane and understandable manner. 10/10 post, would reference.

[ACSeraph]

Specifically striving to be better than everyone else is exactly what will eventually make you better than everyone else.

It's a kind of competitive elitism, and it's the driving force behind the entire fighting game community. Sometimes you might come off as an elitist dick to scrubby players, but that's only because you are trying to help them stop being such scrubs.

If anything I think shmup players could benefit from this mindset.

be careful. we need to avoid the "opinion" part and stick to the "fact" part. we should be truly "better than everyone else" in terms of what we can do compared to others, not in terms of our opinion of ourselves (for that is the true nature is this whole "elitism" thing, and leads to some sort of self-harm).

I didn't really mean it that way, I'll try to explain it better. This another byproduct of being in the fighting game community, but basically there is an elitist way of thinking with regards to how a game should be played (Playing to Win). Most other ways of playing are greatly frowned upon by the community and labeled "scrub rules". Without a doubt this is the very definition of elitism, but it's a little different from thinking ourselves better than others, rather, it is thinking our methods are better than others. The thing is though, I would argue that this is a fact rather than an opinion. I guess maybe I am a little elitist, but while I don't respect "scrub thinking" I really only want to help them become elites themselves. I want to pass on the elite methodology.

So what I'm saying it, that by taking the elitist mindset with regards to play methods (in our case The Full Extent of the Jam) you will eventually become a better player. I don't really see why we should be expected to respect the opinions people who credit feed and then trash the games. Respect them as fellow human beings sure, but not as players. The problems comes from the fact that in order for them to get better, they have to first realize that they suck. People don't take this well and immediately turn to calling superior players Elitist.

One final important note though is that I when I say strive for elitism, also understand that there will always be more to strive for. There's a difference between an elitist mindset and scrub who believes himself to be elite.

[Bananamatic]

get gud

[Eaglet]

I think the OP might be confusing elitism with a competitive spirit, which is something i see a lot more of here.
Quite obvious given the nature of the games.

You want to see real elitism try hanging out at fighting game forums.

[chempop]

Screw people who practice by using save states. I'd like to see you try and clear these games without mindless grinding. Let's separate the men from the boys. #SHMUPELITISM4LYFE

[Bloodreign]

I freaking suck at this genre, but you'll never hear me complain. If anything it motivates me to try and do better, even with rusty with age skills. I fear no game, no matter it's difficulty, shmup or any other genre.

In short, elitism has no effect on me, whether it would exist here or not. If you 1CC something I don't, more power to you, just means you are better than me at it. Now if I am motivated enough, maybe if I had more free time, I could work on a game, maybe surpass your score, but I won't boast about it either.

[AntiFritz]

As long as the shmup community isn't as elitist as the fighting game community, I have no problem with it.

[Softdrink 117]

I frankly don't get the sense that this community is elitist at all. I think it is in many ways the nature of the beast that leads to perceived issues like this. Nobody can help you learn to play. You have to go out and do it yourself. That's not an elitist refusal to help, or some kind of 'fuck off scrub, you don't belong here'-- that's just fact.

However, I think that from the outside, it's very easy to come to the wrong conclusion because the genre has a high barrier of entry, in the form of player skill. As ACSeraph said:

The problems comes from the fact that in order for them to get better, they have to first realize that they suck. People don't take this well and immediately turn to calling superior players Elitist.

Part of the issue with shooting games is that they require a certain commitment and skill level from the player. Is it possible to enjoy a shooter without being good at the game? Absolutely. But, the average non-shmupper will probably fail to see the value in going beyond this point. In order to get more out of the game, the player has to put more in-- in the form of time and energy, as practice. Compounding the problem is the fact that the genre itself has increasingly caters to a niche, dedicated fanbase of players who are already quite skilled. Modern shooting games often have complex and somewhat esoteric systems, and the 'bullet hell' style can be very off-putting to newcomers because its very premise is that it looks nearly impossible.

I think that from the point of view of non-shmuppers, the perceived difficulty is high, and so the way that we casually talk about our accomplishments and 'refuse' to hand-hold can be interpreted as elitist.

[ACSeraph]

I think that from the point of view of non-shmuppers, the perceived difficulty is high, and so the way that we casually talk about our accomplishments and 'refuse' to hand-hold can be interpreted as elitist.

I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly here. That's why we hear things about our community being elitist from people on the outside but can't really find many malicious examples of it on the inside.

[vintagevideogamegeek]

I think the OP may be trying to poke us with sticks, then watch us flip-the-fuck out and hope that itself is article worthy.

YES rancor! I have no doubt you are right about that.

Hello my friends and fans of the shoot 'em up genre! I am the American in the Cyvern video with futurematt5 and have come to save your thread.

This whole business about "Shooter Elitism" is a bit of a joke on my part, stemming from Matt's opinion that Space Harrier, a game I hold near and dear to my heart, is not a "proper shooter". I then, in jest, accused him of being a "Shooter Elitist" and thus this entire mess began.

Matt got the definition wrong right at the start of this thread. I do not mean to say that all shmup players are elitists. Certainly not! I would better define an Shooter Elitist as someone who looks down on a Shooter Noob, such as myself, who "credit feeds" for the sheer fun of playing a shooter to the end (as I did with Cyvern).

Anyway, I hope this adds some value to the conversation, and I should say I have great respect for shooter players. It takes a great amount of skill and endurance to master these games, neither of which I have.

[Pyongyang]

Golf is elitist.

[futurematt5]

Golf is elitist.

Please don't go off topic Ian.

I am impressed by the dynamic nature of this thread and didn't really expect much interest in it at all. In this respect the STG playing community is already proving itself to not be elitist.

However, I am going to compile the "best quotes" from the above - and ensuing - discussion, which I know my co-presenter is extremely eager to join. I definitley think the spirit of competition and skills provides some factual basis for the development of a niche "elite" within the game playing community but as for the more moral and social aspects of elitism which claim some form of advantage or power to the holders of elite skills etc, I think one of the recent posters has nailed it.

Thanks for the views so far, respect to the hardcore players and shooting scrubs alike, and for checking out the video and podcast.

[futurematt5]

This thread sounds like it's trying to address a problem that doesn't actually exist, at least not in any widespread sense.

I think the OP may be trying to poke us with sticks, then watch us flip-the-fuck out and hope that itself is article worthy.

Well you kind of have me figured there, but it's only a worthy article if people are enjoying contributing to the discussion. There's been some excellent quotes so far.

[Cagar]

If you're offended by elitism, then you're obviously not confident in your own skill.

This. There's nothing more annoying than people getting offended by gus.
Crybabies

[n0rtygames]

The video talks about credit feeding a bit. I don't think going for a 1cc is really an elitist thing. The games we all like to play are mostly arcade games, where you are expected to pay a price per credit. If you credit feed in an arcade - you will eventually run out of coins and have to go get more change or simply stop playing. Simple as that.

You pay about $60 for a console port? That's 240 credits or so?

An arcade game is designed to provide a challenge, take your credits and basically keep up a constant flow of players through the machine so it can make the operator money. Arcade developers are not fucking philanthropists. I think people are quick to forget that. So the next logical step from this is to accept that these games are primarily designed to be enjoyed under arcade conditions

To derive satisfaction from credit feeding is basically like deriving satisfaction from running a game with cheats on. Not everyone on these forums has played a shmup in an arcade, but most of us have been to an arcade and played at least something. We know the deal.

That part isn't elitism. That's just a statement of fact on how the games were designed to be played.

As for mentioning names, I could mention names all day long and I'd probably list everyone who's active on the forum. But I don't think anyone really means it.. those that do simply have strange issues

Popping off, getting mouthy and so on is all just part of the arcade culture regardless of genre. As a community I can't say people have ever been discouraging of newcomers. It's more our genre of choice that is balls hard to get in to which scares people off.

But that's just how arcade games are

[n0rtygames]

This. There's nothing more annoying than people getting offended by the brutal difficulty of pink sweets.
Crybabies

Fixed for ironic effect.

Stones + Glass houses etc.

[Zerst]

Pink Sweets is a fun game

[Cagar]

This. There's nothing more annoying than people getting offended by the unfair "difficulty" of pink sweets.
Crybabies .

Fixed for truth
EDIT: Whoops.. there's actually nothing annoying about it

[Tigershark]

There is no such thing as shooter elitism, it's just bad players who can't take being called bad and terrible because they have no intention to get better.

Define "bad" and "terrible" and "get better" in the context you used.

Also, generally, if a person thinks they are elite they're almost certainly not.

Sadly in all walks of life you get the over-confident (usually misplaced), deluded and generally obnoxious person. Anyone who takes an elitist view on gaming will probably be a bit of a tosser or needs to get out more.

[KAI]

No superplay watching , no savestates = true shooter elitism

[HydrogLox]

I would better define an Shooter Elitist as someone who looks down on a Shooter Noob, such as myself, who "credit feeds" for the sheer fun of playing a shooter to the end (as I did with Cyvern).

For STG enthusiasts (rather than elitists) "getting to the end of the game" isn't the point of playing the game. Credit feeding is a "legitimate" way to familiarize yourself with the game but it ultimately does not satisfy the core gaming attitude of an STG enthusiast - one which has already been expressed in this topic:

it's that amazing sense of accomplishment I get when the final boss goes down in flames. There's no greater feeling in single player gaming imo.

Initially a 1CC was the simple challenge of getting the most entertainment (time) out of a single quarter/credit - but outside of coin-op arcade machines it has taken on a life of its own. Simply getting further into the game or getting a (significantly) improved score can reward the player with a "sense of accomplishment" "earned" by practicing (i.e. "working" at) the game. Shooting games are ideal for generating this kind of reward - provided you are willing to put some time and effort into it.

However you can apply that same gaming attitude towards other (single player) gaming genres. For example pick your favorite single player mission in your favorite Halo game (preferably one with scoring like Halo 3 ODST) and go to Mythic Tyrant's channel and watch the legendary walk through - and then try to duplicate it. First you'll die a few times but eventually you'll be ready to turn on the "iron skull" - and again there will be that "amazing sense of accomplishment" when you make it through the mission.

Having gone through that process one cannot help but when coming across yet another "legendary difficulty is too hard/broken" comment - and that comes across as elitist.