The Gun Topic - Move all gun laws/rights discussions here!

[Skykid]

So, a bunch of guys in THIS THREAD have used the phrase "gun romanticism" and this somehow proves that TELEVISION has a pro-gun bias. That makes perfect sense.

'Gun romanticism' and the glorification of firearms is of course pro-gun in both imagery and direction.

Do you just not think at all when you type up a post?

I'd ask you the same question, but it's becoming rapidly apparent that you simply don't think at all.

Or can't, as the case may be.

[evil_ash_xero]

Fuck guns.

The battle with the Deadites is won but there's no respect for the ol' Boomstick. Do Space Marines only carry a chainsaw "for close encounters?"

Well, that's just a movie. I'm not for chopping up girlfriends either. Well...maybe...

Anyway, in my life, I have know a LOT of people who have been murdered, accidentally shot, and just about every other bad thing with guns. I have never known anyone who has used one in self defense. I would love to know the actual numbers for self defense related shootings compared to the other kind.

Because that's the only kind I know of. So yeah, fuck guns.

And I live in WV, so everyone basically blows them, and worships them like some kind of god. That being said, I have one too. But I've never used it, and I own it out of fear.

What can ya do?

[Edmond Dantes]

So, a bunch of guys in THIS THREAD have used the phrase "gun romanticism" and this somehow proves that TELEVISION has a pro-gun bias. That makes perfect sense.

'Gun romanticism' and the glorification of firearms is of course pro-gun in both imagery and direction.

*Facepalms*

Okay, let's take this from the top.

When I said "I keep hearing people mention 'Gun Romanticism'" I'm specifically referring to hearing that phrase ON THIS FORUM, specifically in this thread.

You're suggesting that this somehow proves television and film are pro-gun.

HOW?

How the fuck does a phrase being used by some guys on an internet forum prove a pro-gun media bias? Or indeed, prove anything other than that some guys on the internet know a phrase and like to throw it around?

The more you talk, the more I'm suspecting you realize you're full of bullshit and only like to post in these threads to create drama. There's no way someone can have the Bizarro thought-processes you do and be for real.

I'd ask you the same question, but it's becoming rapidly apparent that you simply don't think at all.

Or can't, as the case may be.

Big talk, coming from a guy who tends to make vague non-statements and act like he's delivered a profound truth, and who counters all counter-arguments with "nah nah nah I'm not listening!"

And who, if the above demonstrates anything, has literacy problems.

[BIL]

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

I think Edmands is onto something re: Gun Romaticism. I mean, think about it. When was the last time you saw a guy shooting off some guns in a tv show or movie and you thought "woah, so badass, that's so cool."? It just doesn't happen.

The same can be said for video games. I mean, I own a lot of games that have guns and shooting in them - but I can't say any of them were a fun or positive experience. QED no gun romanticism.

Checkmate, Skykid. U mad?

[Mortificator]

I barely watch contemporary TV, so I can't comment on that, but it's almost impossible to miss how movies glorify gun violence. Let's look at Wikipedia's (incomplete) list of US action films that have been released this year...

2 Guns - romanticizes guns
Bullet to the Head - romanticizes guns
Fast & Furious 6 - romanticizes... cars!
Gangster Squad - romanticizes guns
G.I. Joe: Retaliation - romanticizes guns
A Good Day to Die Hard - romanticizes guns
The Heat - uses guns for comedy
Iron Man 3 - superhero who doesn't use conventional guns
The Last Stand - romanticizes guns
Man of Steel - superhero who doesn't use guns
Olympus Has Fallen - romanticizes guns
RED 2 - romanticizes guns
White House Down - romanticizes guns

The bold make up the majority.

And if we look at classic action films, most of the ones with a contemporary setting do as well. Dirty Harry. Death Wish. Lethal Weapon. Die Hard. Indiana Jones. First Blood didn't, but Rambo and the other sequels did. Similarly, The Terminator used more of a horror motif for the first film, but the second invited the audience to say "look how cool Arnold is, flipping that shotgun around!"

[charlie chong]

trying to deny that america has a festishm for guns is pretty dumb
i play a lot of arma and i've sure grown to love my m14,dmr and as50's..

on a serious note tho guns are for pussies and i personally don't think human beings have enough control of emotions to be allowed them.

the only person i've known with a gun in this country was a drug dealer and he was a proper pussio

[Skykid]

When I said "I keep hearing people mention 'Gun Romanticism'" I'm specifically referring to hearing that phrase ON THIS FORUM, specifically in this thread.

So far I've done well to not belittle you too much, even though you deserve it. But I'm on my best behaviour and shall attempt to continue.

'Gun romanticism' isn't a term invented by this forum, nor is it a specific terminology for the glorification of weaponry. It's just a term I identified in your post (hence I quoted your use of it) that answered your own ridiculous statement of there being no pro-gun television/film media. Bar having a banner in the middle of a TV show screaming "guns are cool, everyone should have one!", visual media commonly promotes the fashionable aspect of firearms and their usage, therefore making them far less anti-gun than pro. I suppose Blaine's railgun in Predator isn't being sold to the male audience as a penis extension, but rather presents a surreptitious anti-weapon campaign warning people about the dangers of expressing anguish while holding live anti-aircraft tools?

Not sure why on earth you need someone to explain that to you, but then if you're of the belief that the core function of military grade weaponry is to displace mass, it's not entirely surprising.

You're suggesting that this somehow proves television and film are pro-gun.

Honestly Edmund, I'm not sure you even know what you're arguing about, but the above paragraph should suffice in clearing up your quandary, should you read it thoroughly (that means don't skim and digest at a leisurely pace.)

How the fuck does a phrase being used by some guys on an internet forum prove a pro-gun media bias? Or indeed, prove anything other than that some guys on the internet know a phrase and like to throw it around?

No-one ever suggested a phrase on the internet proved anything. You've certainly failed to extrapolate the core of a very simple suggestion: Glorification of weaponry (or 'gun romanticism' as it's been recently termed) is the reason why commercial media has long continued to paint firearms as an attractive and exciting commodity.

There's no way someone can have the Bizarro thought-processes you do and be for real.

There's no way someone can be thick enough to not understand simple words, yet here you are.

Big talk, coming from a guy who tends to make vague non-statements and act like he's delivered a profound truth, and who counters all counter-arguments with "nah nah nah I'm not listening!"

And who, if the above demonstrates anything, has literacy problems.

If you say so Edmund.

[Ed Oscuro]

yo it's true that gun owners can't distinguish fiction from reality
just like video gamers! When was the last time you saw somebody on Dark Souls chop up a boss and you thought "WHOA SO COOL"
also, as I said before, some of you guys are assuming firearms are supernaturally powerful, too.
About the last time I saw some GUN VIOLENCE on the telly (actually on the PC but don't tell!) and thought "WAO SO KEWL" was like the first two episodes of Arrow. It was a lot more fun to see the bodyguard break in and double-tap baddies than it was to see our friend Oliver Queen pretending to be a drunk or taking ridiculous shit from every single woman in his life.

[Mortificator]

I sure don't believe that violence in movies is going to incite violence in viewers, excepting maybe those who already have severe mental health problems. I was just dumbfounded by the statement that there aren't many US movies that present gun violence in a romanticized light.

Furthermore, I think this is relevant because mass media is influenced by popular values. Gun-glorifying movies aren't turning people into gun freaks, but the culture of gun glorification is part of why such movies are profitable.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

yo it's true that gun owners can't distinguish fiction from reality

Sarcasm wouldn't be so misplaced if your buddy didn't just use the plot of Super Mario to justify why its okay to own guns.

[CMoon]

OK, I got the perfect solution for those who say rifles are too large for portable self-defense:




Pros:

Can't blow away wave after wave of 6 year olds
Small enough even old lady's can blast a mugger in the face
Way cooler than a glock.

Problem solved!

Edit: Gun romanticism? Are you guys actually suggesting people aren't romantic for guns? Hell, I'm totally sexed for guns! Guns are really awesome. If I had friends with guns who did the gun range thing, I'd go join them. I'm imagining most people don't buy multiple semi-automatic firearms as an unfortunate but necessary expense. They buy them because their fear of other human beings is enough of an excuse to justify to their wives why their buying totally awesome weaponry. I'm sure they'd mount turrets to their SUVs if they could. Hell, I totally want to drive a tank to work, and if you don't...jesus you're on the wrong forum.

[BIL]

I suppose Blaine's railgun in Predator isn't being sold to the male audience as a penis extension, but rather presents a surreptitious anti-weapon campaign warning people about the dangers of expressing anguish while holding live anti-aircraft tools?

Whoaaa! Hold it right there MR SKYKID, that weapon is known as a minigun. That particular one is a modified for hand-held use version, normally it's mounted on aircraft for firing at ground targets. It's actually the same prop used in Terminator 2's equally fucking sweet, I mean, equally sobering and reflective CyberDyne HQ demolition sequence. Stan Winston <333

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Do you just not think at all when you type up a post?

I hereby nominate you to be the poster-boy for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[trap15]

Hear hear.

[CMoon]

Whoaaa! Hold it right there MR SKYKID, that weapon is known as a minigun. That particular one is a modified for hand-held use version, normally it's mounted on aircraft for firing at ground targets. It's actually the same prop used in Terminator 2's equally fucking sweet, I mean, equally sobering and reflective CyberDyne HQ demolition sequence. Stan Winston <333

Ordering one of these bad boys right now

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

Thirded.

I suppose Blaine's railgun in Predator isn't being sold to the male audience as a penis extension, but rather presents a surreptitious anti-weapon campaign warning people about the dangers of expressing anguish while holding live anti-aircraft tools?

Whoaaa! Hold it right there MR SKYKID, that weapon is known as a minigun. That particular one is a modified for hand-held use version, normally it's mounted on aircraft for firing at ground targets. It's actually the same prop used in Terminator 2's equally fucking sweet, I mean, equally sobering and reflective CyberDyne HQ demolition sequence. Stan Winston <333

I was itching to post this. The railgun was Arnie's gun from Eraser.

[Skykid]

Whoaaa! Hold it right there MR SKYKID, that weapon is known as a minigun.

Sorry sorry! :holds up hands:

Do you just not think at all when you type up a post?

I hereby nominate you to be the poster-boy for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Oh god yes.

[Ed Oscuro]

yo it's true that gun owners can't distinguish fiction from reality

Sarcasm wouldn't be so misplaced if your buddy didn't just use the plot of Super Mario to justify why its okay to own guns.

Anything so we don't have to deal with the argument, apparently.

Does anybody have an idea what the world would look like if we relied on Internet forums for setting the tone of serious policy discussions? We'd be living in Rapture post-flood. The Randites/Paulistas have a lot more stamina than people suspect. But that doesn't translate to real political clout.

Same thing for gun owners - the comments here show that pretty much nobody in the thread knows any rifle or handgun owners. It's especially rich to hear people from the UK or big US cities with handgun bans talking about what handgun owners believe...how the fuck did you meet them? Pretty damn sure you guys haven't been showing up in the comments section of any pro-firearms blogs.

The D-K effect is an important point for firearms owners, but most are very humble about this, and an attempt to combat the effect is actually enshrined in the assumptions underlying "Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety." I would also say that as an important corollary of the effect, on the Internet, everybody thinks everybody else is incompetent. Take note of that, Roo.

Using the plot of SMB to justify gun ownership...you got me there, that's pretty good

[Edmond Dantes]

How the fuck does a phrase being used by some guys on an internet forum prove a pro-gun media bias? Or indeed, prove anything other than that some guys on the internet know a phrase and like to throw it around?

No-one ever suggested a phrase on the internet proved anything. You've certainly failed to extrapolate the core of a very simple suggestion: Glorification of weaponry (or 'gun romanticism' as it's been recently termed) is the reason why commercial media has long continued to paint firearms as an attractive and exciting commodity.

*Sigh*

What you're doing here is an example of "Affirming the Consequent"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

(See? I can use terminology and link to wikipedia articles too! Howdya like THAT, Roo?)

Your argument is essentially, "people are talking about gun romanticism. That proves that the media romanticizes guns" (implicitly, because if it didn't then people wouldn't say it did. Nevermind that people--especially masses--often make or believe claims that are not true, and this type of argument is often used to confirm a pre-conceived bias)

While we're here, yes, movies from the 1980s romanticized guns. Guess what? POLITICS CHANGE. During the cold war, the love of guns was synonymous with protecting America from the red menace. Things changed radically after the fall of the Soviet Union ya know (or I hope you know, but then, you seem to not know much about the country whose politics you love to criticize). Just because something was true in the 1980s doesn't mean its true now.

Most MODERN media presents guns either as something to be avoided, or as a last resort. Superhero movies are all the rage now--and every single superhero hates guns for one reason or another (except Punisher, and he's presented as morally-ambiguous for it). When James Bond was reimagined for the new millennium, they made him a gritty, amoral character whose life is not glamorous or sexy--and of course, he uses guns too. Of course you turn on TV and every episode of CSI or Law and Order tries to tell viewers that the police have magical machines that can tell them everything about the gun that was used so if you use one, you'll easily be tracked... and so on and so forth.

That's MODERN media folks. It's as anti-gun as any of you could ask for. Maybe if you stopped living in the 1980s for a moment, you'd see that you are NOT the minority you so desperately want to believe you are.

Do you just not think at all when you type up a post?

I hereby nominate you to be the poster-boy for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Oh, hey, I almost forgot about you!

Yeah, ya know what's funny? It's that the first guy who suggested I have mental problems is a guy who net-stalked me to a blog he knew was owned by one of my best friends and then whined about "free speech" when his troll post got veto'd... and even more-or-less admitted that he had an obsession with me.

See Roo, people like YOU are why people like me feel like guns are necessary for self defense. Because you're a nut, and I'm sure if we had this convo in RL rather than from behind the safety of computer monitors, you'd already be reaching for my neck, Homer Simpson-style. There's a difference between saying "I want something bad to happen to you" and actually demonstrating nutcase behavior.

That's the funny thing about this debate. You act like I'm losing and yet my point is being proven with each and every post.

We need guns because:

1. Self Defense--as I just outlined.

2. People aren't rational and sometimes need to be coerced for their own good--as is proven by everyone who would rather use name-calling and ad-hominems rather than present facts (which, I repeat, the anti-gun side HAS NOT DONE. EVER).

3. To rebel against our government if it becomes tyrannical (this was the specific reason the 2nd Amendment was written)--which never came up in this debate, admittedly, but the point is still proven by legislation like SOPA, which has just become news again.

On the other side, we need to get rid of guns because.... why? "OMG Romanticism" "OMG there was a school shooting WE NEED TO BAN GUNS NAOW!" You sound like reactionaries who would suddenly change their tune if you saw a news story where a girl saved herself from a rapist by using a gun, or if a would-be school shooter was stopped by a teacher who had a gun. (Oh, there are stories of people using guns to stop crimes, but you never hear them on the news. Gee, I wonder why?)

[Edmond Dantes]

I barely watch contemporary TV, so I can't comment on that, but it's almost impossible to miss how movies glorify gun violence. Let's look at Wikipedia's (incomplete) list of US action films that have been released this year...

2 Guns - romanticizes guns
Bullet to the Head - romanticizes guns
Fast & Furious 6 - romanticizes... cars!
Gangster Squad - romanticizes guns
G.I. Joe: Retaliation - romanticizes guns
A Good Day to Die Hard - romanticizes guns
The Heat - uses guns for comedy
Iron Man 3 - superhero who doesn't use conventional guns
The Last Stand - romanticizes guns
Man of Steel - superhero who doesn't use guns
Olympus Has Fallen - romanticizes guns
RED 2 - romanticizes guns
White House Down - romanticizes guns

The bold make up the majority.

And if we look at classic action films, most of the ones with a contemporary setting do as well. Dirty Harry. Death Wish. Lethal Weapon. Die Hard. Indiana Jones. First Blood didn't, but Rambo and the other sequels did. Similarly, The Terminator used more of a horror motif for the first film, but the second invited the audience to say "look how cool Arnold is, flipping that shotgun around!"

Okay, first of all, THANK YOU!

See, Skykid? When someone says "present an example of media that romanticizes guns", THIS is what you do. Not that bullshit you tried.

Back to mortificator, you're on the right track. As I said earlier, the 1980s was a different time with different politics, so for this discussion the modern movies are more relevant. And in those cases, I would like more details on how, exactly, they "romanticize" guns.

To me, gun romanticization would be... sort of like that scene from T2 you mentioned. You don't see that in movies anymore. At most you get locking-and-loading. I tend to see more heroes who have a code against guns, who would only use them as a last resort, or who are driven by desperate circumstances... and on the other side of the spectrum, I don't think I've ever seen anyone in Law and Order fire a gun and not suffer for it (whether they're the crook who gets found out by the magical police machines or the cop who suddenly has a guilt complex over shooting a perp). So I take "romanticization" to mean the portrayal is mostly positive.

[trap15]

[Edmond Dantes]

Where do you guys get those nifty image macros?

[Casey120]

I get warm romantic feelings looking at that


Would they ship this to the Eu in a generic brown cardboard box marked toy and gift ?

[NTSC-J]

I would like more details on how, exactly, they "romanticize" guns.

Here's the trailer for Shoot 'Em Up. The only way it could be more obvious is if Motley Crue had changed those song lyrics to "guns guns guns yea".

[trap15]

3. To rebel against our government if it becomes tyrannical (this was the specific reason the 2nd Amendment was written)--which never came up in this debate, admittedly, but the point is still proven by legislation like SOPA, which has just become news again.

I hope you don't seriously believe that people having guns will allow them to rebel against the current government. Regardless of how many civilians have guns, there will never be a successful uprising against the government as-is. What with that runaway military budget and all.

See Roo, people like YOU are why people like me feel like guns are necessary for self defense. Because you're a nut, and I'm sure if we had this convo in RL rather than from behind the safety of computer monitors, you'd already be reaching for my neck, Homer Simpson-style. There's a difference between saying "I want something bad to happen to you" and actually demonstrating nutcase behavior.

People aren't rational and sometimes need to be coerced for their own good--as is proven by everyone who would rather use name-calling and ad-hominems rather than present facts (which, I repeat, the anti-gun side HAS NOT DONE. EVER).

Sounds like you want to irrationally shoot some people. And this is why we should not have guns. QED, bitches.

[Specineff]

I would like to point out that Edmond asked for evidence of TV shows romanticizing guns, not movies. (Which is pretty evident anyway)

[Edmond Dantes]

I would like more details on how, exactly, they "romanticize" guns.

Here's the trailer for Shoot 'Em Up. The only way it could be more obvious is if Motley Crue had changed those song lyrics to "guns guns guns yea".

Finally, someone on the anti-gun side has managed to prove a point!

+1 for you. Keep it up!

I hope you don't seriously believe that people having guns will allow them to rebel against the current government. Regardless of how many civilians have guns, there will never be a successful uprising against the government as-is. What with that runaway military budget and all.

It doesn't matter if I believe it will work. the point is that mounting any form of resistance--no matter how impractical--is part of the reason for allowing gun ownership in the first place.

Subsequently, part of the gun-owner psychology (and this has to be understood or else this debate becomes so much hogwash) is that any attempt to take away our guns is synonymous with taking away our liberties. And the US government HAS shown, time and time again, that they want to do exactly that. Prohibition in the 1920s, the Comics Code Authority and various other attempts at media censorship, DMCA a couple of years ago, SOPA now... so this particular mentality is entirely justified.

Sounds like you want to irrationally shoot some people. And this is why we should not have guns. QED, bitches.

Let's suppose I do want to "irrationally shoot people." If I'm really that nuts, I'll find a way to kill them even if denied a gun. And unless they have a gun, they might very well be helpless to stop me.

After all, my sister used to think she was tough shit until NO NO YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT MOVE ON NOTHING TO SEE HERE!

[Skykid]

What you're doing here is an example of "Affirming the Consequent"

I thought I was just affirming my point?

See Roo, people like YOU are why people like me feel like guns are necessary for self defense. Because you're a nut

Roo is perfectly grounded, well-read, and intelligent enough to understand and respond to a debate not least by possessing reading comprehension - something you lack. Just because he posted a response to you outside of the forum doesn't make him an insane stalker: you're the one who linked the page.

While we're here, yes, movies from the 1980s romanticized guns. Guess what? POLITICS CHANGE. During the cold war, the love of guns was synonymous with protecting America from the red menace. Things changed radically after the fall of the Soviet Union ya know (or I hope you know, but then, you seem to not know much about the country whose politics you love to criticize). Just because something was true in the 1980s doesn't mean its true now.

Hard to beleive anyone could be this dim, but then:

Okay, first of all, THANK YOU!

Finally, someone on the anti-gun side has managed to prove a point!

+1 for you. Keep it up!

Amazing.

See, Skykid? When someone says "present an example of media that romanticizes guns", THIS is what you do. Not that bullshit you tried.

What bullshit was that, exactly? An answer to your idiotic statement? Taking the time to respond to the crap spilling from beneath the dunces hat on your baffled head?

So sorry Edmund, if I'd known I needed to post examples outside of 80's movies and offer you a join-the-dots list to prove that glorification of firearms is still a thing in the media in 2013, I would have avoided entering into a conversation about it and drawn up a nice list to pander to your woeful intellect. I apologise for taking the alternate tact and offering you the time of day, actually responding to your curt insults with 'bullshit' that your fading IQ couldn't quite fathom, and presenting passages of text that made your brain hurt. Clearly my crippling illiteracy is to blame.

The Dunning-Kruger effect is actually a thing. I suggest actually following the link, reading through the synopsis and outlining content, and then phoning a good therapist.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

Do you own a gun, Edmond? Not judging, just asking.