Anyone else feeling the Saidaioujou meh?

[trap15]

How about we all play DDP2 instead.

[Udderdude]

If you aren't playing this on a CRT or lagless LCD with smoothing turned off, you're wasting your time. It's practically unplayable with any additional lag.

I hope the patch removes any remaining lag, though. I can't really tell if there is any.

[Giest118]

If you aren't playing this on a CRT or lagless LCD with smoothing turned off, you're wasting your time. It's practically unplayable with any additional lag.

I hope the patch removes any remaining lag, though. I can't really tell if there is any.

Hold movement to the right.
Pause.
Let go of movement.
Unpause.
Note the extra frame of movement after unpausing, even though you're not holding the stick to the right.

That's a level of input lag that goes beyond the screen itself, methinks.

[Udderdude]

Yeah, that one frame is kind of crap. But it may also exist on the PCB. Remember Mushi Futari 360 has several input lag settings, according to that, the PCB has two frames of lag.

[Giest118]

Existing on the PCB is all well and good, and in that case, go ahead and keep it in the "arcade-perfect" Arcade mode.

But why the hell is it also in 1.5 and 360 mode?

[Udderdude]

My guess is they didn't have time to add a lag option menu like Futari had. All signs point to the game and port being very rushed .. we're lucky we got it at all.

[kathy]

This is just my opinion but when taking into account Caves other releases saidaioujou 360 feels unfinished. Why Cave would consider using the wide mode again is anyone's guess. I would love to have a go on the pcb though.

They should have just given it to M2 imho

[iconoclast]

Does it really take that long to get hypers in arcade mode? I get 5 on the first level, that more than I got in DOJ.. then again I couldn't chain DOJ for crap.

It doesn't take long to build a single hyper, but it does take too long to build up to 10. If you're trying to score without triggering the overflow, there are really only two points prior to stage 5 where you should use your hypers (the stage 3 and 4 midbosses). Nothing else is worth the rank boost.

[casualcoder]

I find that DDP games have not evolved much since DOJ. The visuals are pretty much the same, the patterns often recycled, and it doesn't help that there have been DDP clones in the marketplace now creating an overall sense of boredom with the system and visuals. With that said, it's hard to get a better, pure bullet-dodging experience than any of the DDP games so I'm sure I will come around to it because, in context, it is a shmup masterpiece on atleast some level, and we just don't have many of those coming out anymore. So you would have to value it for that fact alone.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Keep in mind, we're focusing strictly on arcade original here, and not the other modes (which improve the formula somewhat.)

This is vastly understating the fun of Xbox 360 Mode, and the importance of the 1.5 tweaks. 1.5 is to SDOJ arcade what DOJ Black Label is to standard DOJ. It fixes the score bug, ups the hypers you get, etc... other people have mentioned this in the thread already, but it's worth emphasizing. 360 Mode is just awesome because it feels so rewarding when the scoring pays off, and it's intense because you're draining your own life/bomb stock in order to score big.

[chempop]

Do you think top Battle Garegga players complain about the PCBs lag? Something tells me they do not.

You guys just like to complain and make excuses for suckage.

[Giest118]

Do you think top Battle Garegga players complain about the PCBs lag? Something tells me they do not.

You guys just like to complain and make excuses for suckage.

I don't get what opinion you're trying to convey here. It exists in the game, therefore... it's not a flaw? Doesn't that... what?

[Skykid]

Keep in mind, we're focusing strictly on arcade original here, and not the other modes (which improve the formula somewhat.)

This is vastly understating the fun of Xbox 360 Mode, and the importance of the 1.5 tweaks.

It would be much of a traditional Pachi 'meh' thread if we were banging on about how good the other modes are would it?

I also found 1.5 and 360 to be much improved, but I really don't like it when the original game is outclassed by afterthoughts.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I also found 1.5 and 360 to be much improved, but I really don't like it when the original game is outclassed by afterthoughts.

Mushi 1.5
DOJ BL
Futari 1.5
DFK 1.5
Deathsmiles MBL
Ibara Kuro
Pink Sweets Arrange (this is an Xbox exclusive I think though, but I usually hear it's much improved over the arcade mode).

Seriously, a lot of their games have had updates that are considered to be superior and generally more polished compared to the initial releases, if not at least equally as good as the original arcade versions. The only difference with SDOJ is that there hasn't been a PCB update released, which is probably a bit unfortunate if it's their last PCB release.

[Skykid]

Eh, you misunderstood me, in 'afterthoughts' I was inferring anything not PCB related. You really don't need to remind me that there have been PCB revisions Roo, you know I haven't just stumbled on shmups n' Cave games recently.

But yes, I understand your point: there have always been instances where Cave's first attempt has needed improving. It's kind of a shame they couldn't give SDOJ the 1.5 treatment in arcades, but I suppose factors such as:

- It was successful
- They're poor
- It's embarrassing to keep recalling PCB's from arcade ops every time you release one

...made them decide against it.

[Jonst]

Keep in mind, we're focusing strictly on arcade original here, and not the other modes (which improve the formula somewhat.)

This is vastly understating the fun of Xbox 360 Mode, and the importance of the 1.5 tweaks.

It would be much of a traditional Pachi 'meh' thread if we were banging on about how good the other modes are would it?

I also found 1.5 and 360 to be much improved, but I really don't like it when the original game is outclassed by afterthoughts.

I agree,I found this to be the case with akai katana as well...

[Jonst]

Well,I like it! Initially I felt the same as a few people.blue,samey looking backgrounds...but,I still think its pretty cool.at least we got another cave game,I'm happy for that alone! Another pachi is better than no pachi.

[Wonderbanana]

Well I hope its alright, I just paid for an LE this morning

[BareKnuckleRoo]

- They're poor

It's also a matter of development costs - if you want to make money, you can't spend years and years polishing something as much as you like, there comes a point when you have to decide that you'll release what you have because there's simply no way you could recoup the development costs. You'd lose money, so you'd have to do it as a hobby, not a business. Or, you might not realize that your work has points that you could polish up until people start seriously playing it.

I understand your frustration that a lot of their best games have been revised versions of the original (barring stuff like Esgaluda, Progear and Ketsui which haven't had seriously updated version revisions?), but calling them simply "afterthoughts" is not giving them enough credit. In some cases the revision makes the game way, way better (Futari 1.5 is a huge improvement) and is very much worthwhile, and you can't really blame a dev for releasing a patch if they want to improve on their original work.

[Jonst]

Well I hope its alright, I just paid for an LE this morning

Don't worry,it's still a cool game!!

[Udderdude]

Yeah, it's definitely worth picking up, this thread was pretty troll-ish to begin with.

[Cagar]

My PM to Icarus:

I suggest you to try 1.5 mode in saidaioujou, it's very crimson cloverish and you actually DO hyper many times in every stage. (minus stage 1 of course)
Here's a video of 1.5 stage 2 scoring: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21056698

[Udderdude]

My PM to Icarus:

I suggest you to try 1.5 mode in saidaioujou, it's very crimson cloverish and you actually DO hyper many times in every stage. (minus stage 1 of course)
Here's a video of 1.5 stage 2 scoring: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21056698

Seems like the hyper recharge trick is essential to scoring ..

[Special World]

What's the hyper recharge trick, exactly?

[O. Van Bruce]

What's the hyper recharge trick, exactly?

Hy-Hy-Hy-Hy-Hypah sistemu ledy!

[ptoing]

Basically you wanna get your hypers timed such that when they end there are a lot of big star items on screen. Seems like it would require some timing trial and error to find good spots, I guess.

[Icarus]

My PM to Icarus:
I suggest you to try 1.5 mode in saidaioujou, it's very crimson cloverish and you actually DO hyper many times in every stage. (minus stage 1 of course)
Here's a video of 1.5 stage 2 scoring: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21056698

Played ver1.5 for an hour and a half yesterday.
The system is now less Dodonpachi and more Deathsmiles, which is especially irritating as I hate Deathsmiles.

Two reasons why I'm currently cold to the game are:
1) It isn't as immediate as any of its forebears, or anything else in the Cave library for that matter - at least in Daifukkatsu 1.5 it was a challenge accessing Ura in 1-1 and then staying in Ura throughout; there's no real challenge in Saidaioujou until stage 3 when it suddenly ramps right up. And at least in Daifukkatsu, you're hypering a lot, picking your spots to maximise your chain; in Saidaioujou some players don't even hyper until stage 3, wtf.
Futari, Galuda 2, Akai Katana AC, MMP!, Ibara etc - all engaging from the very beginning, all pushing you to use the scoring and weapon system to the limits.

And 2) the key scoring technique that I actually like messing with is only ever used to full effect in stage 5, and no high-level player I've seen outside of Clover-TAC at Stunfest will apparently use it until that stage. The game in ver1.0 is unbalanced, and the hyper system that could have been a spectacular game system is relegated to being used as a st3 and st4 midboss speedkill weapon rather than a game-long score booster. And let's not mention the overflow bug, which renders even using this recharge technique pointless for anyone who is capable of manipulating it. ver1.5 may go a little way towards fixing it, but as a player that likes to compare my scores to other arcade players to gauge my progress, ver1.5 is more an arrange mode than anything else, and the core game still isn't engaging enough to warrant serious play.

So yeah, still meh. So much that my 360 is back in its box again, replaced by a supergun and a Nintendo Wii.

[Dave_K.]

DDP DFK Arrange (Ketsupachi) was Cave's swan song as far as I'm concerned.

[Hagane]

Is there any game that's completely lagless? Arcade PCBs also have lag, and modern consoles have even more lag than PCBs.

As for SDOJ, I really dislike how it looks (something that applies to most Cave games) and I never liked DDP, but I still look forward to trying it.

[finisherr]

On first impression, the game's level of challenge is great. I gotta say though, it's got no character visually. Every level looks the same and the bright overglossy thing is just hard too look at. Liked the artistic feel of DOJ way more. But, I think I'll have plenty of hours of gameplay on this port. Happy I got it.