Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Daigohji »

brentsg wrote:They're in worse shape than the Bluefin Tuna.
We need a tuna-based Shmups forum meme.Maybe to indicate that a thread is becoming extinct? :lol:

On topic, I see this as Cave having contracted SEX syndrome (as in Square-Enix). Once a company has a handful of well received IPs under their belt, there's a high risk of a stagnating conservatism setting in. Through fear of losing momentum, they stop all motion. It's what happens when a company is run by people who have a calculator where their balls should be.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Muchi Muchi Spork »

Skykid wrote:
Espgaluda II - 2005
Puzzle! Mushihime-tama - 2005
Ibara - 2005

No revisions, all quality products. And technically, Kuro is a remix programmed by a totally different guy, so they managed four games in 06 with zero bug issues.
Hmm, I don't think so. The 1 dot version of Ibara is obviously a revision, though I guess we don't have any hard proof yet that the no dot version made it past loc tests. Galuda 2 is rumored to have a bugfix version somewhere out there through they might not have updated the date code line (some 2 player bug when you fight a later boss). Tama had a revision. 2005/09/09.Master Ver

Not that I could find a bug in any of them. The updates could have been tweaks. As for 2006 (not sure if that's a typo) there were revisions of all of those games too.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by moozooh »

Skykid wrote:That would only be arguable if this year didn't exist:

Espgaluda II - 2005
Puzzle! Mushihime-tama - 2005
Ibara - 2005
Tama could have been made by any of the hundred-something employees at Cave, they didn't specifically need the shmup team for that. Otherwise you could have counted Instant Brain and Nin-nin Jump which were both new IPs.
Skykid wrote:And technically, Kuro is a remix programmed by a totally different guy, so they managed four games in 06 with zero bug issues.
Wait, what are these four games in 2006 you're thinking of?

1. 2006/02/10 — Ibara Kuro;
2. 2006/04/20 — Pink Sweets (has had more minor and major revisions than I can keep in my head);
3. 2006/10/27 — Mushihimesama Futari (needed an update due to criticism of unpolished scoring system and over the top difficulty).

What's the fourth?
Skykid wrote:So why not make original games for the 360 and release the odd back catalogue port now and then?

It's not a personal vendetta, just a blank canvas question. I would assume that based on their growth, they could actually afford to create original IP's for console instead of the arcade AND port old games at the same time. I might be wrong about this as it's a completely external viewpoint, but it feels like the company is milking the hell out of a seriously ageing catalogue just because its the easiest thing to do.
In one of the interviews Ikeda has voiced the notion that they're going to continue being an arcade developer for as long as possible, so I can see several reasons (which may or may not be correct, of course), as to why they're hesitant to make console-only games:

1) less arcade games would lead to faster death of arcade gaming, and thus faster demise for the arcade division;
2) less profit margin per purchase;
3) less opportunity for further porting (arcade games are built on outdated hardware, so you can port them to both current-gen consoles and handheld devices; a game made specifically for a console of, say, X360's caliber wouldn't fare that well on a smartphone);
4) most of Cave's shmup audience are still current or former arcade-goers, so to keep that audience loyal you have to throw them a bone every now and then.

As to releasing the old catalogue being the easiest thing to do, yes, but it makes sense completely, as the shmup division earns more cred that way and makes money to invest in further developments (I'm fairly sure that Cave doesn't count only net profits, but rather each project/division), and we have the opportunity to play vastly superior versions of their old games at a price 10+ times lower than we would have to pay otherwise.
Skykid wrote:But new IP's would be pleasant.
If SDOJ is any indication of the care they approach their games with, especially after the criticism of the recent releases, I definitely understand why they would want to take it slower and make sure to prevent large fuckups at all costs. That is the quality over quantity approach, and I approve of it. Having both is, of course, better, but I'm sure they would do so if they could.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Skykid »

moozooh wrote: Wait, what are these four games in 2006 you're thinking of?
Sorry, that was a typo, that's why I listed games from 05. The fourth would be Ibara Kuro, if you're willing to count it as a separate release since it's neither a revision and was programmed by someone other than Ikeda iirc.
Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:Hmm, I don't think so. The 1 dot version of Ibara is obviously a revision, though I guess we don't have any hard proof yet that the no dot version made it past loc tests. Galuda 2 is rumored to have a bugfix version somewhere out there through they might not have updated the date code line (some 2 player bug when you fight a later boss). Tama had a revision. 2005/09/09.Master Ver
You're talking about pre-release updates and fixes. Moozooh and I were discussing major revisions that required arcade distributors to send their boards back, or Black Label versions which was a whole new remix, none of which applied to the 2005 releases mentioned, or Kuro afaik.
Daigohji wrote: On topic, I see this as Cave having contracted SEX syndrome (as in Square-Enix). Once a company has a handful of well received IPs under their belt, there's a high risk of a stagnating conservatism setting in. Through fear of losing momentum, they stop all motion. It's what happens when a company is run by people who have a calculator where their balls should be.
This sounds on the money, but I really hope you're wrong.

Also, a bluefin tuna themed shmup sounds like a winner! :) The whole thing could be similar to Batsugun stage 1.
Last edited by Skykid on Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by TLB »

gray117 wrote:
TLB wrote:
gray117 wrote:...there's been encouraging (albeit not meteoric) rise in popularity of their shmup games.
Just curious: where did you get this information from?

Nothing empirical, but I'd be confident in saying that more westerners than ever before know what deathsmiles/dodonpachi/cave are than in, say, 2004, and that [importantly] more poeple have played one of their games. Following deathsmiles/daifukkatsu pal and general iphone releases there's easily a several fold awareness among people I know... admittedly from a couple of people to tens, small though it may be but it goes in the right direction.

Increased exposure, of course, does not necessarily correlate to sales numbers but it gives you a better chance. Similarly the retail price/volume/distribution/dev costs all play their part in that crazy equation of creating a profitable business - converting awareness into custom ... and there's precious little community management ... but cave's brand popularity certainly increased.

Someone write the shmup poll 2012 and get some clipboarded survey people into the streets stat ;)

The main audience of these STGs play them in Japanese game centers.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Jockel »

BulletMagnet wrote:Image
Well played, sir.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by gray117 »

TLB wrote: The main audience of these STGs play them in Japanese game centers.
This may be the old 'core' audience, but I doubt whether this has been numerically maintained, and culturally arcade won't be your key growth audience, except perhaps in china?

Perhaps you figure that the main audience of deathsmiles are the lolita audience rather than the STG audience. And similarly the ikaruga audience is really the hipster audience...

... Both of which, I grant you, are distinct contributing factors :) But I would counter that, particularly in the case of cave, any western exposure, particularly in the ios market, marks a significant rise in popularity. The difficulty I noted is in converting this popularity into a profitable development/distribution model; potentially reaching markets of 100s of thousands rather than 10s and I think in the past to years cave has taken some tentative, but important steps in this direction.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by TLB »

gray117 wrote:
TLB wrote: The main audience of these STGs play them in Japanese game centers.
This may be the old 'core' audience, but I doubt whether this has been numerically maintained, and culturally arcade won't be your key growth audience, except perhaps in china?

Perhaps you figure that the main audience of deathsmiles are the lolita audience rather than the STG audience. And similarly the ikaruga audience is really the hipster audience...

... Both of which, I grant you, are distinct contributing factors :) But I would counter that, particularly in the case of cave, any western exposure, particularly in the ios market, marks a significant rise in popularity. The difficulty I noted is in converting this popularity into a profitable development/distribution model; potentially reaching markets of 100s of thousands rather than 10s and I think in the past to years cave has taken some tentative, but important steps in this direction.
I would contend that the gothloli sluts in DS appeal to hideous otaku fapnerds who buy tons of retarded merch from the CAVE online store and at matsuris so they can jizz into a pillowcase with a loli ass on it. The guys who play in the arcades actually do play the game to be good at it. The guys who keep CAVE afloat on the merch end are the guys who like to jack off into images of animu. There is some overlap between these categories, so the single product on the market at a time allows for oftentimes more detailed and identifying communication, leading to greater knowledge of their current product, resulting in moar nerdz jacking off (to their stuff).

Yes. Your STG company is being held afloat in significant part by otaku geeks jacking off to animu porn.

Just be happy they're still around at all ;)
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by gray117 »

TLB wrote: Just be happy they're still around at all ;)
Yeah, that's my exactly point - whether through spurious means or not - I think cave is definitely seeing itself becoming more popular with a global customer base and [ignoring the fappers] the large numbers of new customers in this mix are not players in japanese arcades.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by TLB »

gray117 wrote:
TLB wrote: Just be happy they're still around at all ;)
Yeah, that's my exactly point - whether through spurious means or not - I think cave is definitely seeing itself becoming more popular with a global customer base and [ignoring the fappers] the large numbers of new customers in this mix are not players in japanese arcades.
Maybe with cell phones, I guess...
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by NTSC-J »

Its got to kind of suck being a company with this kind of audience.

You release games too infrequently, they complain its not enough.
You release games more frequently, they complain that theyre rushed.
You release a bunch of arcade titles, they complain about no ports.
You release a bunch of ports, they complain about the lack of arcade titles and about how crappy the ports are.
They want a sequel to Dipshit Game 1, you release Dipshit Game 2, they complain about no new original titles, as well as the changes to Dipshit Game 2 not being what they had envisioned.
Half of them want little girls with big titties in their games, half of them want phallic ships. You make Big Titty Shooter, and the phallic fans complain. You make Big Dick Shooter, and the titty fans complain.

What a hobby.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by TLB »

NTSC-J wrote:Its got to kind of suck being a company with this kind of audience.
Yes, but it's unique and it's interesting how it can survive like this. STG are just plain cool, so there's no better company to be taking advantage of it, in my opinion.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

NTSC-J wrote:Its got to kind of suck being a company with this kind of audience.

You release games too infrequently, they complain its not enough.
You release games more frequently, they complain that theyre rushed.
You release a bunch of arcade titles, they complain about no ports.
You release a bunch of ports, they complain about the lack of arcade titles and about how crappy the ports are.
They want a sequel to Dipshit Game 1, you release Dipshit Game 2, they complain about no new original titles, as well as the changes to Dipshit Game 2 not being what they had envisioned.
Half of them want little girls with big titties in their games, half of them want phallic ships. You make Big Titty Shooter, and the phallic fans complain. You make Big Dick Shooter, and the titty fans complain.

What a hobby.
Yep, this is a pretty good analogy with the arcade/console/iOS titles coming from Cave alrighty.

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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by emphatic »

gray117 wrote:And similarly the ikaruga audience is really the hipster audience...
:lol:
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Nate123 »

Cave's VN might have something to do with the slowdown in output.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Fu »

I thought Cave slowed down their productivity because they were losing money, but I guess I was wrong.
I would be dead sad if they stopped making STG (= no more real STG developped)
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by O. Van Bruce »

NTSC-J wrote:Its got to kind of suck being a company with this kind of audience.

You release games too infrequently, they complain its not enough.
You release games more frequently, they complain that theyre rushed.
You release a bunch of arcade titles, they complain about no ports.
You release a bunch of ports, they complain about the lack of arcade titles and about how crappy the ports are.
They want a sequel to Dipshit Game 1, you release Dipshit Game 2, they complain about no new original titles, as well as the changes to Dipshit Game 2 not being what they had envisioned.
Half of them want little girls with big titties in their games, half of them want phallic ships. You make Big Titty Shooter, and the phallic fans complain. You make Big Dick Shooter, and the titty fans complain.

What a hobby.
So true...

--------------------------

About the lack of new releases during the last 5 years, wouldn't that simply mean that they discovered a new, more profitable, market for their talents and they have focused on that to make what is really "Cave" meant for: making a profit.

It's natural for people to do something on which they are more succesful. Toriyama did it when he went from Dr Slump to Dragon Ball so as Nintendo when it changed Hanafuda playing cards for videogames...
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

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NTSC-J wrote:Its got to kind of suck being a company with this kind of audience.

You release games too infrequently, they complain its not enough.
You release games more frequently, they complain that theyre rushed.
You release a bunch of arcade titles, they complain about no ports.
You release a bunch of ports, they complain about the lack of arcade titles and about how crappy the ports are.
They want a sequel to Dipshit Game 1, you release Dipshit Game 2, they complain about no new original titles, as well as the changes to Dipshit Game 2 not being what they had envisioned.
Half of them want little girls with big titties in their games, half of them want phallic ships. You make Big Titty Shooter, and the phallic fans complain. You make Big Dick Shooter, and the titty fans complain.

What a hobby.
+1
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Bananamatic »

The solution is to start a monopoly on Casper's urine
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Udderdude »

NTSC-J wrote:Its got to kind of suck being a company with this kind of audience.

You release games too infrequently, they complain its not enough.
You release games more frequently, they complain that theyre rushed.
You release a bunch of arcade titles, they complain about no ports.
You release a bunch of ports, they complain about the lack of arcade titles and about how crappy the ports are.
They want a sequel to Dipshit Game 1, you release Dipshit Game 2, they complain about no new original titles, as well as the changes to Dipshit Game 2 not being what they had envisioned.
Half of them want little girls with big titties in their games, half of them want phallic ships. You make Big Titty Shooter, and the phallic fans complain. You make Big Dick Shooter, and the titty fans complain.

What a hobby.
To be honest, this describes pretty much any game company with a fanatical/obsessed fanbase. Just look at Blizzard/Bioware etc. Not the part about ports, though .. they just bitch about console A having a better version than console B >_>
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Erppo »

It's so fun being able to not give a fuck about visual themes and the hardware the game runs on. And being able to enjoy all the great games already released and taking every new game as a pleasant surprise.

More people should try this.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Skykid »

Man, this thread is boring.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Gus »

Erppo wrote:It's so fun being able to not give a fuck about visual themes and the hardware the game runs on. And being able to enjoy all the great games already released and taking every new game as a pleasant surprise.

More people should try this.
Nah, that would involve actually playing the games. It's far easier to just bitch on message boards.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by cools »

Skykid wrote:Man, this thread is boring.
Not enough Yagawa.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Skykid »

cools wrote:
Skykid wrote:Man, this thread is boring.
Not enough Yagawa.
Not enough Ikeda either.

Just the same predictable, debate nullifying responses.

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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by O. Van Bruce »

Skykid wrote:
cools wrote:
Skykid wrote:Man, this thread is boring.
Not enough Yagawa.
Not enough Ikeda either.

Just the same predictable, debate nullifying responses.

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So then, what do you want? that everyone agrees with you and then start bitching about Cave not doing what we, on our divine right, want?

That would certainly be a boring (and predictable) thread.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by Skykid »

O. Van Bruce wrote: So then, what do you want? that everyone agrees with you and then start bitching about Cave not doing what we, on our divine right, want?
I never open a thread looking for agreement. I just thought the OP offered up a number of potential discussions, but only brentsg chimed in with anything topical.

It's obviously much easier to fall back on "people are never satisfied", "you should master all of these before you ask for more".
Same old shit that seems to turn up in any similar discussion.

Maybe we should just accept the modern shmup scene is non-existent, and therefore makes for dull conversational material.

Lets talk the increasing price of crude oil instead.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by cools »

Skykid wrote:
cools wrote:
Skykid wrote:Man, this thread is boring.
Not enough Yagawa.
Not enough Ikeda either.

Just the same predictable, debate nullifying responses.

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Why do you think I tend to keep my trolling short? Time better spent in real life.
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Re: Is Ikeda is on sabbatical leave?

Post by O. Van Bruce »

Skykid wrote:
O. Van Bruce wrote: So then, what do you want? that everyone agrees with you and then start bitching about Cave not doing what we, on our divine right, want?
I never open a thread looking for agreement. I just thought the OP offered up a number of potential discussions, but only brentsg chimed in with anything topical.

It's obviously much easier to fall back on "people are never satisfied", "you should master all of these before you ask for more".
Same old shit that seems to turn up in any similar discussion.

Maybe we should just accept the modern shmup scene is non-existent, and therefore makes for dull conversational material.

Lets talk the increasing price of crude oil instead.
Then , let me say something else. Haven't been stated on this thread enough reasons to understand why those developers and creatives haven't released as much shmups as in the past?
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