DLC's availability in the future (split from Mushi HD)

[Blackbird]

Remember that DRM (in the modern sense of it) is a relatively new invention. "DRM" on older games might consist of a CD-Key entry at installation and a disk check. "Got a key? Good!" ...and you're done. That kind of check seems reasonable to me. However, the heavy-handed DRM of newer games, where you often have to log into a user-unique account to even access all the features of the game, is just absurd.

Provided you kept the CD-Key (and it's hard to lose, since it's usually in the CD case), you can easily re-sell an older game. Let alone the thousands of older console games where there was no DRM or DLC to speak of, all you needed was the cart. You can't say the same for modern games, which are hard-locked to online accounts that enable or disable entire sections of the game.

[xbl0x180]

Thankfully, modern games blow and old games still reign supreme, so I don't care if they're available as worthless DLC-only crap and there's no way I'm gonna bother wasting time hacking and going through all kinds of hoops and jumps to access stuff I bought. We are in the ShMUPS forum after all

[kid aphex]

Certain MS DRM requires an online connection at all times.
Their indie games, for example. Despite being stored locally on your hard drive, you're required to be signed onto the XBL service for the games to function.
I've spent a good amount of money on some great indie games ... their future availability is ENTIRELY at the discretion of Microsoft.
If you pay attention to trends, "always online"* DRM is the (unfortunate) way of the future, so
People's worries about their digital purchases are not unjustified.


*More accurately, customer/user-publisher/service interdependence is the way of the future
There's tons of subtle movement in that direction.
Playstation Plus for example: Annual fees get you 'free' games. Unfortunately, if you cancel your membership you lose those free games. So, it's in your best interest to stay subscribed.

I mean, look at the 360 hardware--- users have NO option to opt out of future firmware/os updates, and those updates DRASTICALLY change the functionality of the system --- in ways that AREN'T always better for the consumer. For example, the new cover-flow display of boxart: The art assets aren't locally stored, so unless you're connected to the service, your coverflow's aesthetic is totally ruined.

This generation of gaming is ... very strange. It exists (and reflects more than any other industry) the pivotal point our culture rests upon. Next gen's system are going to demand even more of the consumer, and because an increasing amount of the gaming demographic is comprised of hyper-consumers without the ability to critically think, let alone fight back against the encroaching techno fascism, little's going to be done about it

[bcass]

You only have to do this in the equally unlikely event that Xbox Live is suddenly going to disappear overnight and your old console dies. This ridiculous doomsday scenario that people concoct that all these games will be lost in the future is moronic at best.

Such a scenario is implausibly remote today. It is virtually certain in 20 or 30 years. If you think nobody cares about owning and trading 20+-year-old games, I wonder which threads you've been reading around here.

Not at all. I'll almost certainly be one of those people, just as I enjoy playing games from the 80s onwards today. How do I play all that old stuff? Almost exclusively via emulation. I have no doubt that the 360 will be fully emulated in that timescale, just as practically everything from the 80s/90s is emulated now.

[bcass]

Thankfully, modern games blow and old games still reign supreme, so I don't care if they're available as worthless DLC-only crap and there's no way I'm gonna bother wasting time hacking and going through all kinds of hoops and jumps to access stuff I bought. We are in the ShMUPS forum after all

I wouldn't really call the process of buying a JTAG 360 "jumping through hoops". You're exaggerating in the way that many people do when this conversation surfaces.

[bcass]

Certain MS DRM requires an online connection at all times.

Very few. I haven't come across any yet (apart from the XBLIG stuff). As far as I know, it's only a couple of games from a couple of the big publishers like EA. I don't know about you, but I've never bought an EA game in my life, and I've owned practically all the main consoles over the years.

Their indie games, for example. Despite being stored locally on your hard drive, you're required to be signed onto the XBL service for the games to function.

You have to be signed-in to start the game, but you can continue playing offline after that. The reason why they do that is because they need to keep a tight reign on content. That service is entirely moderated by the community - NOT Microsoft. If something bad gets past the community (something malicious or offensive) then Microsoft needs the ability to pull the plug on it instantly.

Having done some XNA coding myself, I can also guarantee you that if Microsoft did pull the plug on the service for good, then that stuff wouldn't be lost forever as the code runs on PC hardware with very little effort (I'm talking within minutes here, not hours). In fact, many XBLIG devs already sell their games on other platforms, including PC.

If you pay attention to trends, "always online"* DRM is the (unfortunate) way of the future, so People's worries about their digital purchases are not unjustified.

I don't agree. A tiny, tiny minority of overzealous publishers are doing it right now. That is in no way an indication of any sort of trend. Take into accont how Apple now sell non-DRM music on iTunes. That's a precendent as well, so you can't just turn around and say "the industry is evil". They're fully aware of how draconian practice can backfire on them.

I agree about the techno-fascism comment, and agree that's a very serious issue, but I think most people are over-stating its effect on gaming, at least where digital distribution is concerned.

[kid aphex]

I don't agree. A tiny, tiny minority of overzealous publishers are doing it right now. That is in no way an indication of any sort of trend. Take into accont how Apple now sell non-DRM music on iTunes. That's a precendent as well, so you can't just turn around and say "the industry is evil". They're fully aware of how draconian practice can backfire on them.

DRM backfired, so now it's marketed it as convenience (the cloud) and it's suggesting to consumers that always-online, centrally stored files are the future. I mean, look at services like OnLive or Gakai ... Jesus, you can play Crysis 2 in your web browser now. In a few years time, only the most incredibly high-end gaming experiences will require local computing power. 'DRM' has become less of an issue with major publishers because they all figured out a way to avoid ever having to bring it up by name again.

I agree about the techno-fascism comment, and agree that's a very serious issue, but I think most people are over-stating its effect on gaming, at least where digital distribution is concerned.

It's just really obvious to me that always online, always connected, games-as-services is the direction the industry is headed. I don't know how anyone could see it otherwise. Almost every single evolution re: gaming this generation has had to do with creating an interdependence between publishers and consumers ... and there's absolutely no sign of that stopping. But I guess that's just my perspective? We'll see in a few years time, anyways.

[Ex-Cyber]

I have no doubt that the 360 will be fully emulated in that timescale, just as practically everything from the 80s/90s is emulated now.

I hope you turn out to be right, but the current trajectory doesn't seem too promising for that. We can emulate the stuff from the 80s and 90s mostly because the speed difference is orders of magnitude, even going from the early 90s to the late 90s. The semiconductor industry has no plans to continue that kind of advancement beyond this decade; it's going to take a fundamental breakthrough to see that kind of speed difference again.

[Blackbird]

DRM backfired, so now it's marketed it as convenience (the cloud) and it's suggesting to consumers that always-online, centrally stored files are the future. I mean, look at services like OnLive or Gakai ... Jesus, you can play Crysis 2 in your web browser now. In a few years time, only the most incredibly high-end gaming experiences will require local computing power. 'DRM' has become less of an issue with major publishers because they all figured out a way to avoid ever having to bring it up by name again.

I see the cloud as the death of personal property, privacy, and rights. All of your data, programs, games, and computing stored on a remote drive that you don't have control over. What if someone decides to invade your privacy? You can't stop them from physically accessing your data, you don't have control of your hard drive. They could sit down at a terminal and look through everything, just as easily as if you let them sit down at your home computer today. What if someone decides to use your computer's data against you, or prevent you from using your computer to speak out against someone? In the present, an offending entity would have to physically trespass into your house and walk over your dead body to take your computing capability away from you. If they wanted to take the drive legally, they'd need a warrant, and even then they can't stop you from encrypting your data to protect it. In the future? They just pull your hard drive remotely, and then your "computer" is just a glorified paperweight that can't do much of anything without cloud access. Any need for a warrant could be easily bullshitted away by a "terms of service" clause, and there would be nothing you could physically do to protect your drive from trespassers.

I loathe the idea of games going into the cloud. I prefer tangible property, it cannot be taken away without consequence.

[bcass]

It's just really obvious to me that always online, always connected, games-as-services is the direction the industry is headed. I don't know how anyone could see it otherwise. Almost every single evolution re: gaming this generation has had to do with creating an interdependence between publishers and consumers ... and there's absolutely no sign of that stopping. But I guess that's just my perspective? We'll see in a few years time, anyways.

What's funny about this is that nobody blinked an eye when games companies were selling games as a service back in the arcades, but now according to the doomsayers it's going to mean the end of everything. Same with renting games for a week instead of buying them. Millions of gamers have been engaging in that practice for many years now. For some types of games, it's ideal and works out a lot cheaper. They're just different forms of distribution. One doesn't necessarily replace the other.

[Friendly]

Some excellent posts in this thread, for instance by Blackbird.

I get the feeling that bcass is a bit dense, or incredibly naive, or both. Of course 30 years ago it wasn't the same situation as living in a time where you have fewer and fewer property rights and privacy rights. After all during the days of the early aracdes you could purchase aracde cabs if you wanted to, and you could buy home ports. Both of which you then physically owned, and there were no privacy concerns.

Digital distribution goes beyond the scope of this thread and deserves a topic of its own.
The ultimate outcome is indeed quite simple: You own nothing, the corporations own everything* and control all aspects. They decide how long they let you use it, at which conditions and price. Furthermore there is no privacy, as they know exactly what you do, and when, and for how long.


*Not just the software: In this brave new world, they'll just let you pay rent for receiver units instead of selling you consoles.

EDIT: typos corrected

[bcass]

I get the feeling that bcass is a bit dense, or incredibly naive, or both.

I stopped reading there. Not that you hadn't lost all credibility previously, but resorting to abuse is a pretty good indicator that you've lost the argument.

[Friendly]

Very good, my post wasn't directed at you anyway but at the people who actually get it (=the other participants of this thread), which is why I didn't directly address you.

[bcass]

Your post is absolutely directed at me. It includes a direct insult towards me. With logic like that, I'm not sure how seriously we can regard your so-called "opinions".

[Friendly]

I read what you wrote in this thread and reached a conclusion. I think my response was rather civil.
I'd like to continue to debate the topic, but I don't see any fruitful results coming from your continued participation. Sorry if you see that as an insult, but life is short.

[bcass]

Have fun with your paranoid delusions. Also, your inability to grasp solutions to the problems you posed indicates to everyone that you're impossible to have a conversation with. Still, with your offensive retorts, at least everyone can see you for what you really are.

[Udderdude]

Have fun with your paranoid delusions. Also, your inability to grasp solutions to the problems you posed indicates to everyone that you're impossible to have a conversation with. Still, with your offensive retorts, at least everyone can see you for what you really are.

Dude, holy shit. I haven't even been following this thread lately, but isn't this a bit over the top? :P

[xbl0x180]

Have fun with your paranoid delusions. Also, your inability to grasp solutions to the problems you posed indicates to everyone that you're impossible to have a conversation with. Still, with your offensive retorts, at least everyone can see you for what you really are.

Dude, holy shit. I haven't even been following this thread lately, but isn't this a bit over the top?

Not for him. I've seen bcass post in the same manner before... and it was about DLC

[bcass]

Dude, holy shit. I haven't even been following this thread lately, but isn't this a bit over the top?

His post was pretty offensive (towards me). I thought I was being pretty lenient on him TBH.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Not for him. I've seen bcass post in the same manner before... and it was about DLC

True but he usually makes a strong argument for whatever case he is making, which makes him a good poster imo.


Where I am in the "state of gaming" debate is somewhere in the middle, as some things benefit me (steam's ease of use with patching and community). Others not so much (bad drm, offline play)
One thing that is apparent is just how convoluted and fucked up everything has become now gaming has become so lucrative. With the individual hardware & software companies plus retailers and pirates duking it out and the consumer in the middle of it.

As for DLC I think this article is fitting http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/ ... n-fault-2/

My only hope is that consumer friendly gaming can become lucrative like other morally good customer products are outside of gaming, but that would mean paying extra for it.

[Special World]

Would I still be able to transfer my DLC if xbox live went down? It sounds to me like you're saying the way to transfer it is THROUGH Xbox Live, which wouldn't really help in the proposed scenario.

[bcass]

Transfer it where?

[TransatlanticFoe]

I have no doubt that the 360 will be fully emulated in that timescale, just as practically everything from the 80s/90s is emulated now.

Yes, but isn't it nice to have that original hardware floating around? Granted, the average lifespan of a 360 isn't very long though. Arcade is the exception because the physical hardware is way too inconvenient - but for everything else I much prefer the real thing. But then, I still buy DVDs, CDs and vinyl... I am very clearly one of a dying breed who likes ownership of a physical product rather than leasing a digital one.

There's always someone out there who'll find a way - and if it's not available legit, then no-one's going to clamp down on it (as is clear with emulation and roms today). No matter the perceived threat of SOPA, ACTA or whatever as far as piracy is concerned, no-one is going to attack the illegal distribution of copyrighted material which is unavailable by legitimate means. As a PC gamer, I'm sure that by the time my PC has died AND Steam is no longer in business, I'll be able to play my DRM protected games somehow - either they'll be popular enough for a reissue or unpopular enough for piracy to be "legitimate".

But it's sad, don't you think? That companies are so defiant against piracy that they effectively rent their games? Digital distribution, DLC and "the cloud" (and some DRM) only work for as long as servers are running. If you said to someone in 1991 that in 10 years time Sega would be out of the hardware business they'd have laughed their arse off. The DRM/cloud/DLC situation gets that response now - such a suggestion is rebuked with "X is going nowhere". Which is fine for the average buy-trade-buy gamer but sucks arse for those of us who come back to their games.

[ancestral-knowledge]

Not at all. I'll almost certainly be one of those people, just as I enjoy playing games from the 80s onwards today. How do I play all that old stuff? Almost exclusively via emulation. I have no doubt that the 360 will be fully emulated in that timescale, just as practically everything from the 80s/90s is emulated now.

...not even in your wet dreams...an accurate emulation of SNES requires a 3 GHz CPU... you would have to rent a supercomputer farm to run your xbox360 emulation

[burgerkingdiamond]

Finding DLC for my jtag WAS pretty easy until Megaupload got shut down.

[bcass]

Not at all. I'll almost certainly be one of those people, just as I enjoy playing games from the 80s onwards today. How do I play all that old stuff? Almost exclusively via emulation. I have no doubt that the 360 will be fully emulated in that timescale, just as practically everything from the 80s/90s is emulated now.

...not even in your wet dreams...an accurate emulation of SNES requires a 3 GHz CPU... you would have to rent a supercomputer farm to run your xbox360 emulation

Never heard of quantum/organic computing? Quantum processors are already a reality. When these technologies mature and become commerically viable you can throw Moore's law out of the window.

[StarCreator]

This is also besides the point that short-term "emulation" of consoles is going to focus on playability rather than accuracy, just like SNES emulation started with. I imagine the first "emulations" of the 360 will be more similar to Bleem and the like, which wrapped video instructions to the host PC's video card rather than trying to emulate the console's hardware.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I dont think we have proper Xbox (classic) emulation yet do we? I would love to play Panzer Dragoon Orta and other xbox games that arnt fully emulated on my PAL 360 (you NA / JPN 360 gamers are much better off in this department)

[Ex-Cyber]

Never heard of quantum/organic computing? Quantum processors are already a reality. When these technologies mature and become commerically viable you can throw Moore's law out of the window.

Those technologies do promise tremendous computational power, but I think one would have a great deal of trouble developing a PS3 emulator for either of them.

...not even in your wet dreams...an accurate emulation of SNES requires a 3 GHz CPU... you would have to rent a supercomputer farm to run your xbox360 emulation

An emulation of Xbox 360 on that level will probably never happen simply because the behavior is too complex for anyone to ever finish the emulator without IBM, ATI, Microsoft etc. all releasing the netlists (or at least SystemC or the like) for their chips. There's too much going on inside each chip package to just boil it down to one central master clock like classic systems have. It's also probably not necessary for playable game behavior since this console generation is closer to PC, where apps go through abstraction layers rather than hitting the hardware directly all the time. I don't think it's out of the question that we'll see a playable emulation of PS3 and/or Xbox 360 in another decade, but it's not something that's just going to happen thanks to an inevitable march of progress. Basically, it would take a lot of shortcuts i.e. not really emulating the underlying system but rather e.g. recompiling GPU shaders into native host shaders, intercepting and replacing expensive API calls with native code, etc.. This sort of approach yields a lot of speed but requires uncommonly deep knowledge of both the host and emulated platforms, takes a lot of effort to get to a playable degree of completeness, and can easily screw things up. It's the kind of thing that made the Corn and Dolphin emulators possible (Nintendo was somewhat ahead of their time on the abstraction front), for example.

[ancestral-knowledge]

...Never heard of quantum/organic computing? .. .

This isn't even the main point. The newer consoles with their hundreds of chips and modules make it basically impossible to get fully understood by a group of dedicated programmers that have no insight in the chip design and how the parts work together. The newer consoles are not like 3 chips molded together like the NES was. Also throwing in some "science fictional terms" to justify your point is kind of silly. Your assumptions are: there will be quantum/organic computation commercially accessible to all of us which will emulate xbox360 or/and Ps3. You don't know that. This is a statement not even a professor specialized on these matters would sign. Proove it or get back to watching star trek.

And yes, as far as i see people are very sensitive about inaccurate ports of PCBs or additional slowdowns in these games and that's why we will have to go with VERY ACCURATE emulation. This will not come cheap even with computers that doesn't even exist at this point. Just look at all these MAME problems you have with cave shmups right now. A little freeze here or there or no slowdown where it was intented in some parts of the game and it quickly becomes a different experience.

And justifying the whole DLC development by saying "It's alright, there are some illegal methods that allow you to bypass all this when you invest a shitload of time to search for them " is COMPLETELY off the point. All that recent shit like paying for a DLC that is already on a disk or paying for VERY IMPORTANT content (Mass effect 3 anyone) on release date is fucking bullshit. It's all about principles and i think we as a community of gamers need to talk about on what we are willing to tolerate instead of buying like brainless apes or just hacking the shit out of every stupid device we have (and loosing warranty etc.).