Why this forum hates touhou so much?

[RNGmaster]

of course, the above may or may not prove "touhou is casual", at least new touhou. i actually feel bad for zun sometimes.

-IN and EOSD are the best games in the series, no debating that. New Touhou might be more casual, haven't played it much.
-Man, same here. Maybe he drinks to numb the pain...

[dunpeal2064]

oh, i'm sorry. however, i will say it would have been a decent conversation if you just said the second-to-last sentence right above my post here. pretty much everything else you've said seems like you're in an argument that hasn't happened yet. the thing is that disliking zun art isn't the issue, it's the hive mind that causes most of it. shit like "hurr durr it looks like a 4yo drew this" when everyone does that because everyone does that is beyond hyperbole, it's trolling or sheer ignorance. it's literally impossible to understand fact and opinion these days and people love to abuse this whenever they can, and it seems i'm the only god damned person in this whole world who publicly cares.

You make a good point. And yes, I can see how my post could have been taken in an arguementative way. It was not my intention, I need to work on that.

I think a lot of the problem is the "You are either a touhou fandom nerd or you hate touhou" attitude that seems to be abundant. Of the ones I have played, they are not the best shmups I have played, but they are FAR far from the worst. For me, its all about variety, and Touhou is welcome in that line-up, even if the games are not "perfect" (as if any are)

[Despatche]

zun's non-game pieces are nice. sometimes i think zun just does the "weird" things just to be weird, even when he knows better. of course, i think the same about certain bodies of engrish (type-moon all the way), so what do i know?

of course, the above may or may not prove "touhou is casual", at least new touhou. i actually feel bad for zun sometimes.

-IN and EOSD are the best games in the series, no debating that. New Touhou might be more casual, haven't played it much.
-Man, same here. Maybe he drinks to numb the pain...

idk, pcb and sa are great games, and mof isn't too bad either. i'd rate all of them higher than at least teosd. i do like that in has toooons of variety though. yuyuko solo is still one the greatest things ever.

[SuperSoaker360]

now we're getting somewhere. thank you.

1CCs don't mean as much as people want them to. they're just the first step, and some people (me) don't even like playing games for raw 1CCs. it's kind of a half-and-half thing: you really should be scoring well and making sure the game's complete. i would personally rate 1CCs as being less than half for certain reasons but that doesn't really matter.

I stand to be corrected. Scoring makes much more sense to me as well but there's something about scoring in general with Touhou that just doesn't really click for me. Definitely not my cup of tea.

At least play the games you're disparaging, rather than sticking to the "CAVE is so awesome and i can't play touhou because it sux and the fans suck" orthodoxy that seems to infect half the people on this forum.

I don't find that Touhou sucks, but I do think the fanbase is quite annoying with their claims like "THIS GAME IS IMPOSSIBLE!"
UFO is actually the only Windows Touhou I have not yet 1CC'd on Lunatic. The game is fierce early on and it gets progressively more troublesome as you go. I'll give it another go sometime soon, then. The reason why I stopped was because the attacks seem a lot like they're inconsistent. One moment you'll do good and the next, you'll screw up several times throwing your entire run down the drain. I won't deny that UFO lives up to the difficulty name "Lunatic."

[ratikal]

One of the reasons I don't exactly like Touhou is that the games don't really have a gimmick. It's a very simple game, just shoot and move. All shmups need some kind of gimmick to keep it different from the rest or else it's just bland. It just feels like each installment is just the same game with a fresh coat of paint. I know that they attempt to have a gimmick (IN has that time thing, UFO with the UFOs), but it doesn't feel glorified enough like other arcade shmups.

I think another reason is the scoring. The scoring in the games seem to be too complex for its own good. It's like you gotta graze, you gotta collect these little blue items, you gotta collect the ufos, you gotta do this, you gotta do that and its like wat. The game doesn't even seem to really care if you score well at all either. It doesn't make a big deal out of it. This is what I mean.

Touhou 8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx8-pl0FbUI
So, you collect these little icons that increase a little meter on the right there. Get enough and you can fight a boss' true form, yay!

Akai Katana Shin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kh_qtm8gd4
So, you shoot stuff to get this meter up and then your press this button and then BAM, you become this fucking ninja dude and then you shoot little gems to get swords and then you release the swords on enemies and then the swords go through the enemies and its like ABHSBABSBSBSBSKDKJAKDJKASBJBJSFD BOWWWW and you get ALL THIS GOLD LOOK AT ALL THAT BIG GOLD DAMN LOOK AT ALL THE POINTS YOU GOT FROM DOING THAT HOLY SHIT.

Basically, the way Akai Katana works is that it gives an incentive to try to score because it's all flashy and stuff while in Touhou you just get your extends faster.

Personally, I think Touhou is the Madden of shmups. Every year there's a new game with slightly different patterns and music and some gimmick that tries to make it different but still looks like the first PC game.

I don't know, I would just prefer to play other shmups other than Touhou. I had trouble trying to place why I didn't like Touhou into words, so sorry if this post sounds kind of irrational.

[Despatche]

Scoring makes much more sense to me as well but there's something about scoring in general with Touhou that just doesn't really click for me.

hmm, maybe try watching some replays? pcb is pretty great as far as depth goes.

I don't find that Touhou sucks, but I do think the fanbase is quite annoying with their claims like "THIS GAME IS IMPOSSIBLE!"

UFO is actually the only Windows Touhou I have not yet 1CC'd on Lunatic. The game is fierce early on and it gets progressively more troublesome as you go. I'll give it another go sometime soon, then. The reason why I stopped was because the attacks seem a lot like they're inconsistent. One moment you'll do good and the next, you'll screw up several times throwing your entire run down the drain. I won't deny that UFO lives up to the difficulty name "Lunatic."

yeah the fanbase is utter shit, though remember that most of them really don't play video games, period. and yeah, ufo is hard. most people consider it the hardest "standard style" windows touhou.

One of the reasons I don't exactly like Touhou is that the games don't really have a gimmick. It's a very simple game, just shoot and move. All shmups need some kind of gimmick to keep it different from the rest or else it's just bland. It just feels like each installment is just the same game with a fresh coat of paint. I know that they attempt to have a gimmick (IN has that time thing, UFO with the UFOs), but it doesn't feel glorified enough like other arcade shmups.

i think it's fair to say that the main touhou gimmick is "grazing" (games that don't have it aside), which not a lot of games really do. other than touhou you've got shikigami and psyvariar pretty much.

Basically, the way Akai Katana works is that it gives an incentive to try to score because it's all flashy and stuff while in Touhou you just get your extends faster.

i admit the flash is a plus in cave games, but it is not a minus when you don't have it. scoring IS the incentive, always has been; there doesn't need to be anything but the achievement of playing the game well. however, i do think that somewhere down the line, the focus on "extends" is what caused the entire "1CCs above all else" mindset, and that "the flash" may get to some people and "ruin" them so to speak.

edit: it's also obvious that estebang isn't even human...

[DragonInstall]

I don't get much enjoyment when I play touhou. I actually get kind of depressed to be honest. There are far too many shooters that excel in everything over touhou games.

Although I think what fans have done with the series is amazing, mainly all the music remixes.

[Erppo]

Personally, I think Touhou is the Madden of shmups. Every year there's a new game with slightly different patterns and music and some gimmick that tries to make it different but still looks like the first PC game.

I hear this a lot and find it weird because a) Touhou changes the core system in every game making them play quite differently, and b) stuff like the Gradius series or Psikyo games have even less gameplay variation but people don't usually complain about those.

[Estebang]

All Touhou music sucks to begin with, though. It's obvious that ZUN's not an actual musician. I don't know how his stuff got so fetishized.

Some stuff, like U.N Owen Was Her, is practically unlistenable.

[Obiwanshinobi]

b) stuff like the Gradius series or Psikyo games have even less gameplay variation but people don't usually complain about those.

People don't complain about Konami and Psikyo shmups? News to me. In fact, I can't think of a single thing internet people don't complain about.

[ZenErik]

b) stuff like the Gradius series or Psikyo games have even less gameplay variation but people don't usually complain about those.

People don't complain about Konami and Psikyo shmups? News to me. In fact, I can't think of a single thing internet people don't complain about.

I HATE EVERYTHING YOU LIKE! Just because!

[Cagar]

-

[moozooh]

It's a very simple game, just shoot and move.

I understand most of the post, but this part gives me trouble. Aren't most shooters "shoot and move"? What exactly do you mean?

So, you shoot stuff to get this meter up and then your press this button and then BAM, you become this fucking ninja dude and then you shoot little gems to get swords and then you release the swords on enemies and then the swords go through the enemies and its like ABHSBABSBSBSBSKDKJAKDJKASBJBJSFD BOWWWW and you get ALL THIS GOLD LOOK AT ALL THAT BIG GOLD DAMN LOOK AT ALL THE POINTS YOU GOT FROM DOING THAT HOLY SHIT.

Basically, the way Akai Katana works is that it gives an incentive to try to score because it's all flashy and stuff while in Touhou you just get your extends faster.

I agree with the difference, and also agree that it works against Touhou. ZUN still doesn't really know how to make a convincing enemy layout for stages, and his enemy designs are victims of his own ambitions, shortcomings, and design decisions. Large enemies "don't work" in Touhou games because the in-game world is about humans and human-sized creatures, and no machinery to speak of. At the same time it's been established that the enemies are fairies, spirits, or small inanimate objects. Now it's hard to move from this spot, and there's a very clear understanding that ZUN won't, because he can't make a large sprite not look ugly or overly simple. He's not an artist, but he's the only guy working on these games and it seems he prefers it that way.

But at the same time, the amount of non-indie games that give this enticing sense of bling-bling from the scoring that the likes of Akai Katana have are minimum. Cave, Takumi, what else in particular? Batsugun Special and Dragon Blaze? Scoring in Raizing games doesn't particularly look inviting, nor in Seibu games, Psikyo has no scoring systems to speak of (DB being most exceptional in this regard), scoring in Treasure games is about becoming a robot and throwing your life outta window. But you aren't really bothered by that, are you?

[Zengeku3]

All Touhou music sucks to begin with, though.

True. Many many of my tries to actually play and enjoy touhou has ended in a huge facepalm of disappointment with this 4 years old jumping on a piano in the background.

Not the entire series sound like UN Owen.
I dunno, maybe you guys wanna check out the more recent installments in the series like part 12 or 11? The music got a lot better with time imo.

[RNGmaster]

All Touhou music sucks to begin with, though. It's obvious that ZUN's not an actual musician. I don't know how his stuff got so fetishized.

Some stuff, like U.N Owen Was Her, is practically unlistenable.

You finally said something that actually makes sense. ZUN has no concept of songs with beat - they're just whiny melody layers with nothing backing them and they create very little atmosphere. Till When is probably his worst piece. If you think Touhou songs are good - at all - you probably don't listen to music by real bands.

Though I admit I have a bit of nostalgic fondness for EOSD's stage 1 theme :V

[ebarrett]

[DragonInstall]

I think touhou music from the game sucks hard, but I like many rock remixes fans have done with. If only those songs could be play in game.

[MathU]

Touhou is a highly mediocre bullet hell series that gets more attention than it deserves. Meanwhile far better doujin 2D shooters go criminally ignored.

I also think it's humorous that ZUN thinks his games are quality enough to charge money for.

[Erppo]

I'm sure Touhou has really active high level scoring community just because people like the music.

[ratikal]

It's a very simple game, just shoot and move.

I understand most of the post, but this part gives me trouble. Aren't most shooters "shoot and move"? What exactly do you mean?

It means I didn't proofread. I have trouble putting my thoughts to words and it usually ends up coming out like shit.

But at the same time, the amount of non-indie games that give this enticing sense of bling-bling from the scoring that the likes of Akai Katana have are minimum. Cave, Takumi, what else in particular? Batsugun Special and Dragon Blaze? Scoring in Raizing games doesn't particularly look inviting, nor in Seibu games, Psikyo has no scoring systems to speak of (DB being most exceptional in this regard), scoring in Treasure games is about becoming a robot and throwing your life outta window. But you aren't really bothered by that, are you?

I don't know why non-indie games grasp me more than Touhou. There's just something that makes me give a shit after I play them the first time to look up how to actually play the game.

Honestly, I don't know how to put my thoughts into words so I'm just gonna end with "I don't find Touhou as fun as other shmups."

[NzzpNzzp]

b) stuff like the Gradius series or Psikyo games have even less gameplay variation but people don't usually complain about those.

There's a fair amount of variation in Gradius levels. You know, speed level, free vertical scrolling level, cell level, they all play pretty differently. They do reuse the styles of levels for the new games (G1 Moai stage! G2 Moai stage! G3 Moai stage!), but there are always new types introduced too, and one level per type per game isn't really enough to get that repetitive anyway.
I think the reason nobody complains about lack of variation between Gradius games is because most people just play Gradius V and won't touch the other ones, though.

[azinth]

ZUN has no concept of songs with beat

huh

melody layers

wut

If you think Touhou songs are good - at all - you probably don't listen to music by real bands.

lol

[Bananamatic]

it's not that bad for one guy with a failing liver

[Blackbird]

I think a lot of the "hate" stems from the fact that many touhou fans only play touhou (if they play touhou that is, a lot of people are just in the "fandom" and don't even play), and don't have any knowledge or appreciation of shooting games beyond it.

Sort of like that one guy who claims to love/be really good at first person shooters, then says his favorite game is Modern Warfare without even giving a nod to Half Life, Quake, or Doom. No one likes that guy.

[Despatche]

oh god please don't ruin this thread

@Blackbird: it should be noted that most "touhou fans" don't actually play the games; some probably don't play video games at all. most people who actually do play the games do like other shmups generally. likewise, people who like the first touhou fighter are the people who know a lot about the genre and think it's very well made. the second touhou fighter is a bit trashy though, casualization at its finest

Touhou is a highly mediocre bullet hell series that gets more attention than it deserves. Meanwhile far better doujin 2D shooters go criminally ignored.

I also think it's humorous that ZUN thinks his games are quality enough to charge money for.

you are now the worst poster on this entire forum and i never thought you would stoop this low

[MathU]

Thanks, I like the cut of your chin too.

[Moniker]

I like Touhou. I think they're fun, difficult, have good music and often beautiful bullet patterns. The play is on the slow side but I think that's more a matter of taste.

Somehow I've successfully avoided all Touhou fandom without trying at all. I don't really get how it pisses so many people off when all you have to do is just not go to fan sites or read youtube comments which are uniformly trash, no matter the subject.

[BulletMagnet]

Somehow I've successfully avoided all Touhou fandom without trying at all.

It isn't nearly as difficult to do as some seem to think it is.

[ZenErik]

It's more difficult if you go to a lot of cons and/or some of your cosplaying friends are all about the Touhou fandom yet know nothing about the games.

I don't hate Touhou by any stretch. I just don't really love it or find myself really wanting to play the games any more than I already have. Can't deny that ZUN created a monster. Something about his efforts sparked this fandom that is probably bigger than all other doujin shmup fandoms combined.

PS. Isn't Crimzon Clover made by one guy as well? I know he spend years on that game.. but man, that's doujin STG done right.

[Naut]

I had something useful to contribute to this thread but then... Nope.