Thunderforce 1 (It's finally here! New pics)

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:57 pm

Hahaha, a tape.

landshark · Post by **landshark** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:05 pm

Rob wrote:Hahaha, a tape.

That was quite shocking to see. I haven't seen a tape since 5th grade on a TRS-80.

tehkao · Post by **tehkao** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:41 pm

I'm still kinda bummed that Star Cruiser for the MD was never ported to the US....

Vexorg · Post by **Vexorg** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:01 am

I've played Last Mission some in MAME, and it's an interesting game, although it does tend toward cheap deaths. Vanguard 2 is another similar game, although with very limited control of your ship.

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:16 am

Blue Lander wrote:Anyways, as you can see the game comes on tape.

Interesting. I don't know quite how the tapes work for this system, but with the Commodore 64 tape games you sometimes used to be able to make backup copies by using a high quality audio double-tape deck. Since this game is so old, I wonder if it is worth trying something like that, to preserve the game in case the original tape gets chewed up or dirty in the unforseeable future.

Blue Lander · Post by **Blue Lander** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:16 am

What I'll probably do is put it in a tape player, hook it up to the microphone port on my computer, and load the whole thing as a WAV file. Then compress it down to MP3 format. That way I could transfer it back to tape if I ever needed to.

Here's the obstacles I have to overcome before I can actually play this thing...

1: I need a keyboard. I can't tell the PC-88 to load the game without a keyboard, obviously. I already bought one, but it probably won't arrive here for another month.

2: I need to figure out how to hook up a cassette deck. There's 4 RCA jacks on the back of the machine, all labeled in Japanese, and I assume two of them are for a cassette deck.

3: My PC-88 model doesn't have BASIC built into it, and I need BASIC to load the program from the tape. So I've got to get BASIC on floppy or something.

4: I have no idea what commands I need to issue to tell the PC-88 to load the game once I have everything hooked up.

So I'll probably never even get to test the game out, considering there's no english documentation or user groups on the internet for this thing. But you never know

Blue Lander · Post by **Blue Lander** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:29 am

Okay, I used my scanner to grab a clearer picture of the cover. But since it's pretty boring to look at, I just cut out the two Thunder Force logos, which look pretty cool to me.

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:46 am

Blue Lander wrote:What I'll probably do is put it in a tape player, hook it up to the microphone port on my computer, and load the whole thing as a WAV file. Then compress it down to MP3 format. That way I could transfer it back to tape if I ever needed to.

To preserve data use a lossless encoder, not a lossy format like MP3.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:52 am

Blue Lander wrote:What I'll probably do is put it in a tape player, hook it up to the microphone port on my computer, and load the whole thing as a WAV file. Then compress it down to MP3 format. That way I could transfer it back to tape if I ever needed to.

Here's the obstacles I have to overcome before I can actually play this thing...

1: I need a keyboard. I can't tell the PC-88 to load the game without a keyboard, obviously. I already bought one, but it probably won't arrive here for another month.

2: I need to figure out how to hook up a cassette deck. There's 4 RCA jacks on the back of the machine, all labeled in Japanese, and I assume two of them are for a cassette deck.

3: My PC-88 model doesn't have BASIC built into it, and I need BASIC to load the program from the tape. So I've got to get BASIC on floppy or something.

4: I have no idea what commands I need to issue to tell the PC-88 to load the game once I have everything hooked up.

So I'll probably never even get to test the game out, considering there's no english documentation or user groups on the internet for this thing. But you never know

I think I can help you out, I'm talking to some old computer guys who know a lot of computers from the 80s.

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:01 am

Take a nice, clean picture of the ports on the back and I'll translate what they say for you. ^_^

Blue Lander · Post by **Blue Lander** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:06 am

Thunder Force wrote:
Blue Lander wrote:What I'll probably do is put it in a tape player, hook it up to the microphone port on my computer, and load the whole thing as a WAV file. Then compress it down to MP3 format. That way I could transfer it back to tape if I ever needed to.
To preserve data use a lossless encoder, not a lossy format like MP3.

Is that an issue with tape data? It was recorded at such a low baud rate, even if the MP3 format lost a whole bunch of it and reconstructed it wrong you'd probably still have usable data. I guess it couldn't hurt to err on the safe side, though.

Fighter17 wrote:I think I can help you out, I know a lot of old computer guys that can help out. Let me talk to them.

That'd be great, but the problem with the PC-8801 is that it's just so obscure. It was never released outside of Japan, and unlike the MSX there's no cult following for it over here.

Blue Lander · Post by **Blue Lander** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:17 am

Cthulhu wrote:Take a nice, clean picture of the ports on the back and I'll translate what they say for you. ^_^

That'd be much appreciated! I tried typing the katakana into my PC and looked it up in a dictionary, but the results didn't make any sense.

Golly, those ports sure are rusty! No wonder I got the computer for 10 bucks.

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:22 am

Blue Lander wrote:
Thunder Force wrote:
Blue Lander wrote:What I'll probably do is put it in a tape player, hook it up to the microphone port on my computer, and load the whole thing as a WAV file. Then compress it down to MP3 format. That way I could transfer it back to tape if I ever needed to.
To preserve data use a lossless encoder, not a lossy format like MP3.
Is that an issue with tape data?

Lossy formats often omit frequencies that the human ear cannot discern. If any (even a few) of those frequencies happen to be used on the analog tape for storing data you might end up corrupting your backup copy. The only way to know for sure would be to test it, I suppose, once you've made your backup.

Also, don't use your microphone port, use "line-in" and adjust volume levels of your source so that its peaks don't reach the maximum levels on your recording equipment. Best of luck!

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:29 am

Blue Lander wrote:
Cthulhu wrote:Take a nice, clean picture of the ports on the back and I'll translate what they say for you. ^_^
That'd be much appreciated! I tried typing the katakana into my PC and looked it up in a dictionary, but the results didn't make any sense.

Golly, those ports sure are rusty! No wonder I got the computer for 10 bucks.

How you type katakana and all those japanese text on a english computer?

Blue Lander · Post by **Blue Lander** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:31 am

I used this page to input the characters.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:40 am

The kana and kanji on the ports say:

Audio Input---------Audio Output---------Video

Right--Left------------Right--Left----------Output

Blue Lander · Post by **Blue Lander** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:44 am

Thanks. Hmm, if any of those ports are for the cassette tape, I guess it'd be the audio input ones. But why would it need left and right stereo for that? Maybe this model PC-88 just doesn't do tape drives. That'd be great.

Blue Lander · Post by **Blue Lander** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:21 pm

Okay, it turns out there are a LOT of different versions of Thunder Force 1. These are the versions I've discovered so far.

1: Sharp X1 (no pics yet)
2: NEC PC-6001

3: Sharp MZ-1500

4: NEC PC-8801 (Already pictures of this one in the thread
5: Fujitsu FM-7 (game on the left, obviously)

There's apparently also a Thunder Force 1 construction set for at least the FM-7, which lets you design your own levels.

I'll post some comparative screenshots once I find some.

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:00 am

Aww, Ganelon beat me to the t/l. I agree with what he said though.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:33 am

Heh, my bad, Cthulhu. It was just so temptingly easy that I figured I may as well. The more kanji the better, I feel.

JBC · Post by **JBC** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:20 am

Holy crap, it really is on a tape. I was totally not expecting them to actually look like cassette tapes. It's so fitting, since ThunderForce's music has always been such an important part of the series.

Blue Lander · Post by **Blue Lander** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:48 am

Ganelon wrote:Heh, my bad, Cthulhu. It was just so temptingly easy that I figured I may as well. The more kanji the better, I feel.

Sorry for not giving you enough of a challenge! If you're feeling froggy and want to know what Thunder Force's plot is, you could tell us what this says...

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:53 am

Ehh, hold on there, fella; I never said my grasp of hiragana was strong.

If somebody can take care of the kana, I'll gladly fill in the kanji though.

Blue Lander · Post by **Blue Lander** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:20 am

Okay, here's a screenshot montage of the 4 versions I can find screenshots for (can't find any X1 ones yet)

Upper Left: PC-6001
Upper Right: PC-8801
Lower Left: FM-7
Lower Right: MZ-1500/MZ-800

Clearly the MZ-1500 one looks the best. One thing about these old computers, though, is that some of them suck really hard at scrolling. So even though the game might look okay in screenshots, it looks like crap when you actually see it in motion. So who knows what the real deal looks like.

I hear the X1 version has some voice in it, too. Dunno about the other versions. I wonder what they say.

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:55 am

^ Neat. I like the big

THUNDER FORCE
*Stereo sound*

banner over the scoreboard of the MZ-1500/MZ-800 version. I wish we could get the OSTs for all these

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:09 am

Blue Lander wrote: Clearly the MZ-1500 one looks the best.

Huh? The FM-7 screen has the most detailed ship and what appears to be the clearest structures so I'd say it looks the best. Plus, isn't the FM-7 the most technologically powerful of these 4 computers?

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:27 am

The FM7 may be more powerful, but the graphics look more detailed overall on the MZ-whatever. They look similar to the Master System.

highlandcattle · Post by **highlandcattle** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:38 pm

well in western games there werealways intructions included.if you could scan the manual us japanese spreaking fella's could help you out

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:52 pm

Interesting. I don't know quite how the tapes work for this system, but with the Commodore 64 tape games you sometimes used to be able to make backup copies by using a high quality audio double-tape deck. Since this game is so old, I wonder if it is worth trying something like that, to preserve the game in case the original tape gets chewed up or dirty in the unforseeable future.

Heh, I'm glad a mod said it before I did (ph33r the blue edit!). Like TF mentioned the line in port would work best, it'd also be worthwhile I should think to transfer it to another tape...

Then again, there's probably a rom floating around, maybe it's not worth the bother.

Blue Lander · Post by **Blue Lander** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:14 pm

Neon wrote: Then again, there's probably a rom floating around, maybe it's not worth the bother.

JCEC's web page has a bunch of disk images with a bunch of ported tape games on each one, and Thunder Force is among them. But I haven't been able to find a tape image of the game on the 'net. The Japanese don't seem to be much into software piracy. If a system has no US fanbase, you can't find roms for it. Either that or I just don't know where to look.

Ganelon wrote:Huh? The FM-7 screen has the most detailed ship and what appears to be the clearest structures so I'd say it looks the best. Plus, isn't the FM-7 the most technologically powerful of these 4 computers

I guess so, but the MZ-1500 version is the most colorful and advanced looking to me. I'd have to see them in action before I could say which one is truly the best. Choppy scrolling can ruin the worst looking game.

As for which one's the most powerful computer, that's a tough one to answer without more experience with the actual systems. The FM-7 and MZ-1500 both clearly blow away the PC-6001 and PC-8801 as far as graphics go, although the PC-8801 has far better music capabilities. The FM-7 has a dedicated graphical processor, a pretty amazing feature at the time, but the MZ-1500 seems to have special scrolling hardware too. As far as the CPUs go, the FM-7 uses a 6809 and the MZ-1500 a Z80. Those two are pretty evenly matched, but the 6809 is probably a bit more capable. More fun to program for, too.

Another thing I noticed is that FM-7s seem to be cheap and pleantiful. They're virtually giving them away. The FM-77, FM-8, and FM new 7 are all a more expensive, but the basic model can be had for a song. But finding MZ-1500 stuff is virtually impossible. And if you can find a system, it's extremely expensive.