What do you think about TwinGalaxies?

[charlie chong]

SOMWUN WHOO CAN BE BOTHERED SHOULD MAKE AN ONLINE PETITION OR SOMMAT
YEAH
WHOOO!!!!!!

[Icarus]

Here I am in a dilemma, wondering if it'd be a good idea to suggest that some people start knocking heads together and come up with some ideas. I'm a web designer and developer by trade, and I reckon a simple framework could be cooked up in next-to-no-time-at-all with the right structure. And as a scoreplayer, I personally think it'd be a good idea to develop a more forward-thinking alternative to Twin Galaxies, catered to more serious players, which can pull in scores for every available source - MARP, Arcadia etc - into one location.

There are a few points to consider, though:

1) Verification:
How will the site go about verifying scores? WolfMAME default for emulated arcade games, camcorder/VHS/DVD+R feeds for others? What about those who play in arcades with no personal method of recording? (Though seriously, a second-hand FlipHD works just as well as anything else out there.) How do we accept physical media?

2) Game List:
What games do we accept at the start? Do we cover arcade and console only, or expand to cover portable and downloadable?

3) Maintenance:
While I'm personally not too bothered about general code base maintenance and upgrades (gives me something to do in my spare time), are there many people willing to take on the (most likely unpaid and thankless) job of sifting through score and related verification submissions? Volunteers for maintaining the site via CMS?

4) Advertising:
The idea sounds good to us, but will it be well-received by the general gaming public? How do we get the word out that we're available to take submissions? Are there people here willing to put in the legwork and get the project noticed? Perhaps getting affiliated with the media (Arcadia etc)?

5) Site Hosting:
One other important thing is that if the project takes off and explodes, you'd have to consider relocating the site onto a dedicated server - that would have to be taken care of via donations, as I personally can't foot the bill for something like that at the moment.

I think the idea is viable and doable, but bear in mind that TG has been around for a long time with a reputation and history. In order for a start-up to overtake TG as the de-facto standard, it'd need to do something radically different, provide a more functional and useful service, and/or generate a greater level of popularity in a shorter space of time.

Good idea? Bad idea? I'll let you guys debate over it.

EDIT: And to answer the initial question - I don't rate TG at all. Never have, never will. If a player like me can get to the top of those boards with very little effort, then those scores don't deserve to be called "world records".

[Aguraki]

There are a few points to consider, though:

1) Verification:
How will the site go about verifying scores? WolfMAME default for emulated arcade games, camcorder/VHS/DVD+R feeds for others? What about those who play in arcades with no personal method of recording? (Though seriously, a second-hand FlipHD works just as well as anything else out there.) How do we accept physical media?

this point will be the harder to debate.
score keeping would be great if automated;maybe just need to click "verified" to make them official,but they should be uploaded by the player,not the site(will cut in data writing work).
Maybe there would be the official scoreboard(with maybe top 10/top 3 scores,or just the WR) and a "wait board" with unverified scores yet.

2) Game List:
What games do we accept at the start? Do we cover arcade and console only, or expand to cover portable and downloadable?

it is essential starting small but strong,like taking over in a special style(let's say shmups) with the help of top players vouching for the new structure:then expending to other styles.
this might be bad to split games that much but I don't see a global takeover happening like that and being credible.

3) Maintenance:
While I'm personally not too bothered about general code base maintenance and upgrades (gives me something to do in my spare time), are there many people willing to take on the (most likely unpaid and thankless) job of sifting through score and related verification submissions? Volunteers for maintaining the site via CMS?

there would be if there was a serious motivation and a chance of success.
also,this can't work with free will forever.
need to find a way to make it profitable(hate to say that but if you want it to work you need people working on this 7/7).
one way is after recognition,organizing tournaments or w/e and get sponsors.
no need to organize said tournaments,just be the official score keeper.

4) Advertising:
The idea sounds good to us, but will it be well-received by the general gaming public? How do we get the word out that we're available to take submissions? Are there people here willing to put in the legwork and get the project noticed? Perhaps getting affiliated with the media (Arcadia etc)?

more than needed.
prestige of the title need to be spread as recognition=volume in terms of submissions.

5) Site Hosting:
One other important thing is that if the project takes off and explodes, you'd have to consider relocating the site onto a dedicated server - that would have to be taken care of via donations, as I personally can't foot the bill for something like that at the moment.

see maintenance thoughts.

randoms:
ideally the structure would act like a gigantic portal,keeping all scores of all games.
this means the site would work with editors(EA/activision/konami/etc...) and have them affiliated to the site.
the new games almost all have online scoreboards;every editor need to be redirected to a global portal,keeping all the scores in one place(where they also can advertise their products>>$$$).
getting all the online scores redirected in one place would be already a massive database,and best is that can be completely automated.

with support of so mainstream companies,development would be easier and reaching other areas would be realistic.

So,for a simple start,lets say shmups,best would be to join arcadia likes sites,but also the shmups editors,and submit the project.
This can't be bad for editors,maybe it can conflict with local scores keepers(though no one read arcadia out of japan).

well there is definetely something to do in that domain,but as said before it needs a lot of work and I don't think this can be achieved on "free time".

sorry for the unorganized thoughts and the bad english

[E. Randy Dupre]

There's a significant difference between having a few high score threads on a board like this and running a site dedicated purely to recording high scores submitted by anyone anywhere. Here, the general feeling is one of trust - scores are taken at face value without proof being demanded (unless they're insanely high or unexpected). That's the benefit of a community like this - you operate on a system of trust because, when it comes down to it, anybody who'd lie about something like their best score in a videogame simply to get their name at the top of a list on a board of a couple of hundred people has more serious problems and isn't really worth the effort of chasing around.

Once you start something like TG, though, you're making everything far more troublesome for yourself. When that's the purpose of the site, rather than an adjunct to it, everybody gets a lot more anal and possessive about this shit, and all the joy drains from it.

High scores should only ever be about improving your own abilities, and the point of a table not to see who's the best, but to register your own improvement by comparing it to that of others.

[Dave_K.]

^ +1 Well said Randy.

Although I'm sure Icarus (and others) could do a lot better than TG, only a real physical arcade can guarantee 100% valid scores. Maybe this is why Arcadia is still considered the real world record holder for scores.

[Icarus]

Although I'm sure Icarus (and others) could do a lot better than TG, only a real physical arcade can guarantee 100% valid scores. Maybe this is why Arcadia is still considered the real world record holder for scores.

That's why I'm suggesting that any possible design considers aggregating scores from a variety of reputable sources, that way you can populate the tables with correct information that is available at a glance to anyone that wants it, and the site is still open to those wanting to join in. You could filter out particular entries if you want to see scores from one source (eg just from Arcadia, just from MARP, just from Shmupsforum etc) if you're wanting to pit yourself against others, and you can view scores if you just want to see who's the world leader. Think Victoly crossed with AIVA crossed with Arcadia.

And if you wanted the site to be truly valid, you could try contacting Arcadia and discussing an affiliation, that way you could "legally" include their scores, and you'd get rep points as a result.

As for the issue of verified versus unverified scores, filtering would take care of that also. When you view a board, you can select the option to view just unverified scores, or view just verified scores, or view both combined. Advanced filtering via the database would make sorting very easy, and the back-end CMS would give you control over toggling the "verified" flag on and off at will.

"Trust" aside when it comes to scoreboards, the only reason an idea like this would be suggested is to provide a one-stop shop for all score records. My idea would be to marry TG's reputation with AIVA's knowledge and Shmupsforum's community and competitive spirit.

[E. Randy Dupre]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to take a dump all over your idea. It was just a general moan about the seriousness with which TG and others take the whole business of 'records'. It'd also be a shame to see people set something up in the spirit of helpfulness and/or friendly competition, then get ground down by the realities of the thing.

[xris]

Ruldra wrote:
" The Cyvern world record registered there is 2,193,120. We just had 105 people break that score."

This just about sums it up. I think many of the details have been covered as to what's wrong with TG. In allot of ways the score threads here are a great resource , and example of how a world record score community should run. Yes, much of it is running on the honor system, quite well actually. Now, within it there is allot of discussion and encouragement to do well. If you look at points when someone starts doing really well, as in getting close to the world record, there's closer attention towards validation. Almost always encouraging the player to be able to prove it down the line, usually helping with the technical information and hardware. Usually people just want to watch the replay. There seems to be allot of secrecy with high scoring runs. But, many players here are willing to show their replays, this is awesome, it promotes interest, and breeds competition.
It's also a global score board. Arcadia seems like a legit way to do it, but it's Arcade only right? So, super high scores, but it's localized to Japan. Maybe there would be better players in the world if they had another way to submit scores to motivate them.
The interest here is to break away from the current score keepers, and provide a healthier global board. For now, it would make sense to just focus on shmups, then affiliate with other standards if this one becomes recognized. The best thing to do is really just point out how bad TG is with their shmup scores. We need to provide videos showing how many people can score over their records. I think something high profile like DDP might help, Acid King had said he'd thought about getting drunk and beating the record. Go for it! That's the stuff you need, I'm sure a few videos can be organized into a package and sent out, G4 might be help here, they understand how f'd up TG is. Show that we do not recognise their method and will continue with ours without them. So a site with the scores gets built up slowly. Figure out what the best standard for video submission would be and go. There's plenty of people out there that'll watch it and would be able to recognize problems. I'm good enough at a couple games myself to do this, and I'm not getting record scores. The best idea is to make as much of the video stuff public as possible. Maybe offering players the ability to sell their replays. There's the possibility of sustaining it this way, selling dvds of the record holders run through mail order. Consider selling a burned dvd for around $8-10 as a way to fund the site, and profit share a buck per sale to the player.
In all it looks like there's a need for a new standard, it's going to come down to who's going to say where it's going to happen. I think there are a few people here that are qualified and interested to move forward from here.

[charlie chong]

i beat tg world record for ddp under the influence all the time sometimes multiple tingz. and i'm shit at it

[Acid King]

i beat tg world record for ddp under the influence all the time sometimes multiple tingz. and i'm shit at it

I'm sensing a forum video series on the horizon. I don't have the editing skills or the equipment to make mine, but I'll ask around and see if I can't find some friends that would be interested in helping me set a world record on Ikaruga for the gamecube.

[Lordstar]

The system in place here for the scores shmups.com take is great.

[TarkanX]

I'm glad this thread was made. While I do like the potential of TG, the way the go about things could be so much better, especially with the slogan of "official score keepers" (they aren't, they are just score keepers). Here are some things that I believe they need to work on (which they probably won't, since they've been around for nearly 30 years).

-International scores: Most of the international scene doesn't know about TG, and TG hasn't seemed to get the word out either. Unless you are from North America, and maybe Europe (too a much lesser extent), then you probably don't know about TG.

-World Record moniker: I understand that this is a business, but having a "world record" when there are a bucket load of people with better scores isn't a world record. Personally, my Gradius 3 score is much higher than the score that TG has, and I am definitely not on tviks level.

-Records in games that no one cares about: I think I'll let this slide, since its not as big of a deal, but TG a few years back (they seemed to have removed it), had a leaderboard on the right side of the page with players with the number individual "world records" that they had. You would see some have 1000+ and think that it was insane, until you looked at their page and see the games they play, having 1 or 2 entries. Theoretically, you could play a dozen racing games with no competition (each track in a racing game is an individual record), and be considered one of the greatest gamers of all time.

-Verification methods: To have your score verified, you either have to have a referee watching your score, or use a DVD (used to be a VCR, for the longest time, even when no one had those anymore). With this, I don't mind, as they want to make sure the person isn't lying, but what gets to me is the next one...

-Lack of videos from the records: I think someone from SpeedDemosArchives said it best: (paraphrasing) "Imagine if the NBA (or any sport) was closed off to the public (no crowds in the stadium, no videos, nothing, only the players, the referees, the coaches, and the score keepers were allowed in the arena/stadium/field, and then once the game ends, the official comes out the door to tell people who won and what the score was." Would you still watch the sport(s)? I wouldn't. I haven't seen videos of any of the TG records. It comes down to the person that has the record that posts them on youtube (which are few and far between).

-Speed Runs: The way they verify speedruns is poor. Instead of starting when you can take control of your character, they start from when you turn your console on. Form the time you turn your console on and before you start to take control of your character, isn't "playing". What if someone has to go to options to verify that they are using the correct settings? Worst of all, you are never able to see videos from the speedruns, unless the player posts them (thank goodness for SDA, and youtube).

-Lack of communication with other high score/speedrun/time trial communities. It is quite sad when record keeping communities (such as MarioKart64, Tetris, F-Zero, Sonic Rankings, Neo-Geo, Gran Turismo, SDA, MARP, cyberscore, vgr-fr, shmups, etc...) talk crap about TG, and it isn't something as simple about not liking them, but its their policies.

TG has recently opened a video game hall of fame (which I posted a topic on here, but seems to have been ignored). The first entries are mainly from players from the golden age of video games, which I can agree on, since they were the pioneers, but they are making a next batch of nominees for the next year, and there is a lack of players that weren't in the golden age. From fighting games, to FPS or RTS (there aren't any Starcraft players, even though that is the most competitive video game, ever, at least as of now).

I would definitely support a new scoreboard, especially if you got in contact with the different record keeping communities, and were able to maintain and advertise (these two are very important). This is technology related, and technology changes quickly. An old-guard can be dominant for a few years, then fall of the next year. If someone is able to do something like this, even with the Guinness backing (think of Microsoft vs Apple, how Microsoft was the biggest technology company in the world, and now recently, Apple has surpassed Microsoft), then it will mean huge things for record keeping. I'm not sure if anyone has noticed, but record keeping has been a thing of the past for years. Competitive gaming has replaced record keeping as the main source of competition (ex. one huge fighting game tournament for a specific game can easily surpass the number of entries for even a relatively popular high score game), and while I personally think that playing against another player is a better form of competition than playing against the computer, there is definitely a uniqueness about record keeping, and competitive play doesn't make record keeping obsolete, just different traits.

[neorichieb1971]

I came 2nd on puzzle bobble 2x on MVS. I noticed I used default settings at level 4. They used level 5.

So before you attempt one of their records, look at their settings first.

[Ed Oscuro]

So before you attempt one of their records, look at their settings first.

You're saying they look at settings before they lock in a record? That's pretty generous

I'm kinda with JoshF on this...who here gives a damn about records for early 80s Pac-knockoffs?

This being said I'll be supportive of any attempts to set up a serious alternative, but we should all be clear upfront that a lot of drama and more than anything hard work would be needed to do it right.

[VorpalEdge]

Hi. I'm from SDA. I'm going to give you a few things to think about. Let me ask a few questions.

If this prospective site is going to be an SDA-like*, and focus on having only the best videos as opposed to records, how will it be different from super-play.co.uk?
If it's going to be a high-score board, like the high-score forum, or cyberscore, or even TG... how will you get people to participate? Currently almost nobody on shmups.com actually plays shmups outside of the STGTs; the xexex scoreboard, for example, had like 10 scores on it before it got featured on the STGT, and maybe one of them was a 1-ALL? One week later, we've got over a hundred scores and a few 2-ALLs. I know this community can get some cool scores if it tries, but it almost never does. If this site is going to be a high-score board, it's going to need to do more than copy scores from elsewhere, which means the community will need to rise to the occasion.

*SDA actually got started because TG accepted a 1:46 any% metroid prime run but rejected a subsequent 1:23 for unknown reasons (in fact, the 1:46 is still the record at TG). IIRC this led to radix not bothering to contact TG when he did his 1:37 100%, which led to the launch of non-quake SDA. And the rest is history.

I write this post not to discourage people, but to make sure that there's a clear mission statement. I mean, it's certainly possible to supplant TG. SDA did it. And it's also possible to create a scene from nothing. SDA did that too. But if you guys want to duplicate that, you're going to need to create a New Western Arcade Scene. If you don't, then what's the point?

Something to think about. I'd be glad to participate if it happened. :)

[xris]

I think that the score board here doesn't get really high scores because there is no recognition of them past here. So people are only going to work on the games that they like, not the ones that they have potential in. The main scorekeepers just aren't going to consider taking submissions that are spawned from here for reasons already mentioned. This may change if there is somewhere else that will take a proper look at your scores.
There are quite a few people here that pay attention to WR scores actually, it's just a little more obvious on the cousin site CaveSTG, where there is a thread for it.
One of the biggest problems in the past has been recording your runs, this is something I had dealt with myself. A few years ago I spent the better part of a year working on a speed run for Fatal Frame and got a potential record with 1:14, Fatal Difficulty, No Save/Death, S Rank. (side note: been thinking about working on this again, but no longer have my xbox, would I be able to do this on xbox360 with backward compatibility, or does it have to be on original hardware?) But, had no way to record it. Now, just about anybody here can record something with the right cables.
So much of the high score problems in stg comes from lack of replays available, they are either held captive by the player, or sold at a high price. This combined with the mess that is TG, or Arcadia being Japan only seems to keep people from really trying here. All the high scores here seem to come from the encouragement from other players.
I'm hoping that now with the online score boards and replays available on xbox live this may mean that some of the global scores cannot be ignored anymore. That #1 spot is #1 no matter what.
If you build it they will come.
Edit: In response to post above, I think the site would have to start as a replay site as scores got built up. And listing their high score records until WR holders are willing to bring their scores on board. Then, it could be a true listing of WR. Maybe it should have two listings, one for the site high scores, and what is recognized by other scoreboards as WR.

[DEL]

E. Randy Dupre wrote;

It was just a general moan about the seriousness with which TG and others take the whole business of 'records'.

If they actually did take World Records seriously then they'd acknowledge the real Japanese WRs.
Instead of sticking their heads in the sand.

Speaking of which, you could say the same about the Japanese. They don't look outside of Asia for WRs. (Admittedly there aren't many Western WRs compared to Eastern ones). EDIT!

Anyway, I've ignored TG for a long time now.
9 lives default for GigaWing - official TG settings

[Ed Oscuro]

9 lives default for GigaWing - official TG settings

The old, stupid, policy of TG's that the first person to run the game selects game settings and they can never be changed again, I assume.

Might as well, for Metroid, insist everybody complete with the exact same random completion percentage (less than 100%) of the first person to run it.

In all fairness, there can be tons of ways to speedrun a game depending on completion and other thing (just look at the Compet-n record categories for DOOM...plus there's more besides), so it's sensible to limit what can be accepted. This naturally gives an advantage to (for example) DOOM-specific speedrun sites where people were actually interested in trying out different things and the work hours to put it together were available...I'm not sure a TG-style site can do much more than cover the basics unless there are people willing to do all the legwork for any given category.

Who wants to moderate 100% Life Force collected runs of Turok 2?

[Icarus]

In all fairness, there can be tons of ways to speedrun a game depending on completion and other thing (just look at the Compet-n record categories for DOOM...plus there's more besides), so it's sensible to limit what can be accepted.

I was just thinking about this today, actually, and I have to agree with you - the biggest challenge in setting up a site like this, is in creating a system to make entry of the default game settings for each record list simple, yet fully featured and completely customisable. There are obviously a vast amount of different games, all with corresponding numbers of possible configurations, and for a record keeping site to be successful, there needs to be a strong backbone with regards to default setting entry, because it will make setting up listings for individual games much easier.

I suppose the simplest solution would be to figure out what settings are generally universal for all records (default settings for lives, difficulty etc), and then limit the amount of items tracked by the database (high score, low score clear, fastest time, highest percentage, lowest percentage, combinations etc), while leaving the door open for further expansion once a viable method is developed and/or demand rolls in.

One other thing I was mulling over with regards to a possible site was in creating a community area - a forum, basically - where participants can discuss the content of the site. A few of you have noted that the one thing TG fails at is in creating a community, and that all of the current record-keeping communities are fractured, with no hub to bring like-minded individuals together. While I'm sure a forum would be some way to get people together, the main issue is rules and moderation. The other issue is actually getting people to join in.

[1up]

I think the reason why TG doesnt recognise scores outside their own turf is because they work with Guinness and are the proclaimed 'official' score keepers. They sit back and wait for people to submit their stuff to them for verification and could care less what else is out there, as its not 'official' because it was not verified by them.

If you bitch and moan about TG scores being laughably poor, why not submit a run that beats it ten fold and bask in the glory of all the members worshipping you on their knees?

Is there a site out there that just collects scores from all major score keeping sites like TG, MARP, Arcadia etc? Just putting them all together and listing them so you can get a nice overview of who has the best score and where it comes from?

[ryu]

If you bitch and moan about TG scores being laughably poor, why not submit a run that beats it ten fold and bask in the glory of all the members worshipping you on their knees?

It's highly unlikely for them to even upload it.

[Ed Oscuro]

and/or demand rolls in.

Sorry to snip your post so close - but that's essentially the Compet-n story! At the time the site was active, DOOM was still the #1 most played game, and all that activity meant lots of people were interested in it (it also helps that DOOM's standard replay formats made things easier - I do believe this was before the age of TAS runs which complicate matters now). Nowadays DOOM is starting to become a sort of cult favorite, and while lots of people still track all things DOOM, there isn't that level of involvement anymore. So I suppose the cutoff could be completely arbitrary - are there people interested in scores for a certain game anymore? There may always be one or two people who are actually running a game seriously, but the referee staff has to still be energetic as well.

Alternatively, if there's no interest by staff in overseeing a particular score or game style, perhaps unrefereed scores could be provisionally (unofficially) accepted until (if ever) there is some interest. Actually I think I like that solution.

[NTSC-J]

Personally, I feel that Arcadia is all we really need for record-keeping, since the best players are already in contact with them and high scores flow in monthly. An annual publication collecting the top scores up to today would be nice, but a site like AIVA that catalogues these scores is most important. I mean, outside of old crusty arcade games, the Japanese have this hobby dialed, and I'd bet 100 yen that some kid in Tokyo could truck any of those classic game records if he cared to.

My biggest problem is more that TG doesn't admit they're racist. They are essentially running the Olympics where only one country can participate. Congratulations.

[Ed Oscuro]

My biggest problem is more that TG doesn't admit they're racist.

Well, not just that, but it's like the 90s didn't happen and newer titles / newer scores don't count for anything. Pox on Guinness for not vetting their records supplier better.

[TarkanX]

To be fair on Twingalaxies part, the 90s weren't exactly a time where many people went for high scores (at least in the west). The 80s (to be exact, from 1978 - 1983, (maybe 1984, maybe) was the most competitive era in terms of high scores, which is why when someone gets a world record in one of the popular games during that era (Donkey Kong, Space Invaders, Asteroids, Pac-Man), they get their face plastered all over websites, in the newspaper, and on television, yet when someone gets a world record on say: The Simpsons, or TMNT: Turtles in Time (which were relatively popular games in the 90s arcades, or even in a popular shmup (relatively) such as Raiden, Dodonpachi, Giga Wing, or R-Type (80s game, I know...), no one really takes notice, except the community they are based in, and even then, you'll get a couple congrats, and that's it. It is like comparing a popular competitive game (Counter-Strike, Starcraft, Street Fighter 4), and pitting it against a not so popular competitive game (Melty Blood, Magical Drop 3, etc...). Someone is going to be held in higher regard if they get a record in a popular game, than someone in a less popular game. It might not be fair, but that's how it is. The more popular, likely means the more competitive.

Twingalaxies is very likely the authority on games from 1978-1983, gets a little hazy from 1984-1987, and after that, should probably be either looked into carefully or disregarded. I don't think Japan was really big on the earlier games until the mid-80s (though they seem to have a few records during the early 80s, looking at the MyCom article).

I suppose the simplest solution would be to figure out what settings are generally universal for all records (default settings for lives, difficulty etc), and then limit the amount of items tracked by the database (high score, low score clear, fastest time, highest percentage, lowest percentage, combinations etc), while leaving the door open for further expansion once a viable method is developed and/or demand rolls in.

I think this is important, and goes with the TG vs. Japan, and other debates. Arcade settings have different settings depending on region, where if you hit something simple, it will be worth more in one region than in another. Lord BBH could probably go in more detail with this, since he has the world record (he even beat out the Gamest record) in Shock Troopers.

One other thing I was mulling over with regards to a possible site was in creating a community area - a forum, basically - where participants can discuss the content of the site. A few of you have noted that the one thing TG fails at is in creating a community, and that all of the current record-keeping communities are fractured, with no hub to bring like-minded individuals together. While I'm sure a forum would be some way to get people together, the main issue is rules and moderation. The other issue is actually getting people to join in.

I think if this is to happen, then getting in contact with the top players, and community leaders of those forums is very important. Traditionally, most people are sheep, so they will flock to wherever the shepherd goes.

I think the reason why TG doesnt recognise scores outside their own turf is because they work with Guinness and are the proclaimed 'official' score keepers. They sit back and wait for people to submit their stuff to them for verification and could care less what else is out there, as its not 'official' because it was not verified by them.

They were doing these even before the Guinness parternship.

[DEL]

TarkanX wrote;

To be fair on Twingalaxies part, the 90s weren't exactly a time where many people went for high scores (at least in the west). The 80s (to be exact, from 1978 - 1983, (maybe 1984, maybe) was the most competitive era in terms of high scores

Not true, you're ignoring the slightly younger guys like me and my London peers who pushed scores mainly from 1985 to 1992. We were counter stopping the multi-looping shooters of that era, as well as the Japanese, & of course completely ignored because we lived in neither Japan nor the USA
(not that it matters )

TG only really cares about pre 1984 arcade titles.
& mostly American players
& mostly American players they personally know,
& yes Guinness are backing the wrong pony.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think what TarkanX says makes sense if you think about the state of overall gaming. The 90s were the era when the gaming public at large moved to consoles and computer games with no scoring to speak of. I'd say it doesn't forgive any behavior on the part of TG but it does make sense.

[TarkanX]

DEL: You're right that TG mainly cares about pre-1984 titles, the people that they know from the American community (by the way, I think Guinness was trying to find a video game related division, and TG was the one that the easiest to use, maybe only the only one, but don't quote me on that). They came around the time during the golden age of arcades, and actually, after the golden age of arcades faded (in the mid-80s), TG either disbanded, stopped keeping scores, or kept scores in the form of another name (I think it was called the APA scoreboard), but they didn't keep scores with the same vigor for a long time (which is probably a why a game like SF2, which arguably was more popular than the early 80s games, has no score from the early or mid 90s.)

I think what TarkanX says makes sense if you think about the state of overall gaming. The 90s were the era when the gaming public at large moved to consoles and computer games with no scoring to speak of. I'd say it doesn't forgive any behavior on the part of TG but it does make sense.

Exactly. After 1983, arcades (which was the main medium of keeping scores) were dying around the west, so during the mid-80s to pre-SF2 (early 1991), there was a gap where arcades were pretty much faded, not in the public eye. When someone thinks of Contra, do they think of the Arcade version or the NES? Most likely the NES. When someone think of Strider, do they think of the Arcade or NES? Most likely the NES. Arkanoid, Bubble Bobble, Salamander (Life Force), Double Dragon, TMNT, etc. It says a lot that SF2 and MK (and mainly those two games) had to single-handedly revive the arcade scene. The console games then (NES, SMS) and even computer games didn't emphasize scoring, even if it was there (and if it was, usually it was busted or exploitable). The object became to finish the game. Tetris is probably the only console game from that era where people actually competed for score.

In the 90s, the emphasis turned from high score, to versus, with games such as Street Fighter, Tekken, etc..., then you had your PC games, such as Doom, Quake, Starcraft, Warcraft, etc. It seems to be recently that high score has seen a revival. It was always there, of course, but it was way back in the corner, compared to now.

And yes, TG does a bad job of this.

[DEL]

TarkanX wrote;

Exactly. After 1983, arcades (which was the main medium of keeping scores) were dying around the west, so during the mid-80s to pre-SF2 (early 1991), there was a gap where arcades were pretty much faded, not in the public eye. When someone thinks of Contra, do they think of the Arcade version or the NES? Most likely the NES. When someone think of Strider, do they think of the Arcade or NES? Most likely the NES.

Only if you're American. The NES was an American phenomenon. We only experienced the SNES in the UK.
As for arcades fading in the 90s, this was an American experience too. They never faded in the UK until 1994. So for us Strider was a purely arcade game not NES and the same goes for Contra and Super Contra - arcade format only for us.

after the golden age of arcades faded (in the mid-80s),

Again the timing is different. Over here we regards the Golden Age of arcades as later than that - 1985 to 1992.

(which is probably a why a game like SF2, which arguably was more popular than the early 80s games

True it was the most popular game and it was also the Death Knell for the shoot'em up genre.
It made fast money from quick challenges between 2 players. The arcade operators and developers latched onto this fastcash and never looked back.
What followed was a disconnect period 1993-1998, where the shoot'em up nearly died altogether. Pulstar and some Raiden sequels and not much else surfaced during this period.

In the 90s, the emphasis turned from high score, to versus, with games such as Street Fighter, Tekken, etc..., then you had your PC games, such as Doom, Quake, Starcraft, Warcraft, etc. It seems to be recently that high score has seen a revival. It was always there, of course, but it was way back in the corner, compared to now.

I agree, the above is true.
Only in tiny pockets like a couple of surviving London arcades and Far Eastern (inc. Japan of course) areas has the score-based play survived throughout.

[Lordstar]

I dunno if score based play in the arcade survived at all in the UK. In my opinion it died out long long ago but was only brought back to life within the past 8 years or so in the infancy of the net