So, would you say that this is the last hurrah?

[evil_ash_xero]

Well, it's not that i'm obsessed with Cave. It's just that I think they're the last really good shmup company(but i'm not interested in the stuff they've released after DS). So that may be it. I'm most excited about Galuda II, and despite what the fliers focus on, it's not a girly/loli game. So, that's a plus.

If Treasure, Raizing, and good Konami(and far more other companies that I am forgetting) were putting shmups out, I think people wouldn't be focusing just on one company. But they're the last really good company out.

And for me, DS MBL, Futari, and Galuda II(not to mention Ketsui) are the last games of their's I am interested in(unless they get themselves back together). So for me, this is the last of it.

Well, fingers crossed on Darius Burst. But I have been playing TF VI, and it made me sad and weary. Still, also looking forward to RayStorm HD(but it's old, so..).

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Im on the other end of the scale im quite new to shmups having only descovered Nomltest, Blue Wish Resurrection plus this site a couple of months ago. B4 then I would just turn the page whenever i encountered them in a magazine never giving them a second thought. How stupid I was.

Even though i really enjoy them ill try not to play too obsessivly cos i know sooner or later ill get burnt out. Another thing i do is when trying over and over for a 1CC or whatever asoon as i stop having fun and it get starts to feel like work ill turn the game off. I can imagine allot of ppl will fall into that trap of trying for hours to hit a goal even though its not fun 4 them.

If i ever get burnt out i would just give the genre a rest until i find a game that excites me video games are forever evolving (sometimes for the good sometimes bad) The worst thing some1 could do is to just dismiss the whole genre as crap and not keep their eyes open for cool new stuff

[Acid King]

It's just that I think they're the last really good shmup company(but i'm not interested in the stuff they've released after DS).

I think that's why the forum seems obsessed with them. They're the last company left from the old group still dedicated to 2d arcade games. No more Seibu. No more Raizing. Out of that mid-late 90's peak they're hte only ones still doing shooters.

And for me, DS MBL, Futari, and Galuda II(not to mention Ketsui) are the last games of their's I am interested in(unless they get themselves back together). So for me, this is the last of it.

Have Cave even announced what's coming after Death Smiles 2? I don't know how you can say that when we don't even know what's next.

[cody]

And for me, DS MBL, Futari, and Galuda II(not to mention Ketsui) are the last games of their's I am interested in(unless they get themselves back together).

I think ignoring daifukkatsu is a mistake. It's a really good game, even if waiting for someone to finish a run can take a while.

[evil_ash_xero]

And for me, DS MBL, Futari, and Galuda II(not to mention Ketsui) are the last games of their's I am interested in(unless they get themselves back together).

I think ignoring daifukkatsu is a mistake. It's a really good game, even if waiting for someone to finish a run can take a while.

Well, if a port is released, i'll see what's the word on it and think it over. But the robotic lolis in the DDP world is really tacky, and turns me off quite a bit.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

It's just that I think they're the last really good shmup company(but i'm not interested in the stuff they've released after DS).

I think that's why the forum seems obsessed with them. They're the last company left from the old group still dedicated to 2d arcade games. No more Seibu. No more Raizing. Out of that mid-late 90's peak they're hte only ones still doing shooters.

And for me, DS MBL, Futari, and Galuda II(not to mention Ketsui) are the last games of their's I am interested in(unless they get themselves back together). So for me, this is the last of it.

Have Cave even announced what's coming after Death Smiles 2? I don't know how you can say that when we don't even know what's next.

You could be right about this forum been abit Cave obsessed, its not the first time some1 said that, hell its even been pointed out on the sister siter forum 2D Gaming. But since they are the biggest in the business and there been not too many other companies making A+ shmups atm who can blame folk for been fans. Ive always wished that more ppl would be into doujin shooters and see them as a viable alternative to Cave since there are some good games out there, just not with all the bells and whistles found in commercial titles.

[agustusx]

Well, if a port is released, i'll see what's the word on it and think it over. But the robotic lolis in the DDP world is really tacky, and turns me off quite a bit.

You know I would say the same thing bout the lolis in DS. I need not talk about the box art. But I broke down and got the game cause it was new, fresh and had nice graphics. Over time I got over it, and have enjoyed the game a great bit. The dolls in DOJ have never bothered me, but I don't need them personally. At least in DOJ games you still control a ship

I don't mind the character driven games, I don't mind if a shooter is not in space or if its not military themed. I like a mix.

But since Cave wants to be Cave, in order for them to make a game that caters to western markets maybe they could just make the girls legal aged.

[clp]

i wish there was more focus on raizing tbh , some of the most interesting indepth scoring systems ever imo but i think this is where it breaks down into players who want to learn the game and further there skill and " casual" players who enjoy the presentation etc more . Cave covers both fields but just by looking at most cave game scoreboards on here you can see very few play them to extent .

[Acid King]

i wish there was more focus on raizing tbh , some of the most interesting indepth scoring systems ever imo but i think this is where it breaks down into players who want to learn the game and further there skill and " casual" players who enjoy the presentation etc more . Cave covers both fields but just by looking at most cave game scoreboards on here you can see very few play them to extent .

There'd be more focus on Raizing if they were still making games. It's been what, 8 years since Brave Blade? 13 since Garegga? Is there anything new to discuss with their games?

[BulletMagnet]

There'd be more focus on Raizing if they were still making games. It's been what, 8 years since Brave Blade? 13 since Garegga? Is there anything new to discuss with their games?

Considering how they never bothered to explain a lot of the in-depth workings of most of their shooters, there probably still is, at least until all the ROMs are hacked to bits.

On topic, I have to agree with you that there's not much of a way to tell what the future holds until it gets here - yeah, DS2 looks pretty poor, but judging by the general reaction it's been getting hopefully it'll just wind up an anomaly. Also, I'm surprised that no one (unless I missed it) has bothered to bring up the fact that Cave is finally testing the waters for wider releases of its games - if this works out for them, who knows what doors might open for them one way or the other. Either way, not much we can do but buy what we like and leave what we don't, and hope the overall landscape follows suit.

[sunburstbasser]

There'd be more focus on Raizing if they were still making games. It's been what, 8 years since Brave Blade? 13 since Garegga? Is there anything new to discuss with their games?

I don't think the Raizing brand even exists anymore unless 8ing has been pulling it out for something I missed. Fortunately, Yagawa got hired by Cave so that he can still produce his rank-hell games.

Does anyone know what happened to the Psikyo guys after the company basically shut down? I know the name is still around and they even have a website but it looks like they are either doing more porno Mahjong or re-releasing old games (someone with some Japanese knowledge could make more sense of it). I wouldn't think the guys who made all those games would just quit; most were veterans before joining Psikyo.

[dan76]

It may seem a bit like the last hurrah because just as Cave gets it's act together and starts releasing ports, their arcade quality drops with DS2. If they go back to solid 2d arcade games then no, it's not quite the last hurrah - but it would be great if there were other companies producing as many games of the same standard.

Off topic - I really dislike the artwork of Deathsmiles (the cover is awful, as is Futari), but love the in-game graphics. It's new but old school - think the cake graphic for the life up. If you can get past the art, the system and gameplay is really good.

Back on topic - if no more shooters were made, you'd still have too many games to master in one lifetime. It's so far out of the mainstream we're kind of lucky any new games get made at all. I also think your age plays a part, as I'm in my mid-thirties, I mainly listen to old music, watch old films and generally play old games. Pink Floyd aren't going to release any more albums, no more films from Kubrick - so you enjoy what you've got. Chill...

[evil_ash_xero]

Well, if a port is released, i'll see what's the word on it and think it over. But the robotic lolis in the DDP world is really tacky, and turns me off quite a bit.

You know I would say the same thing bout the lolis in DS. I need not talk about the box art. But I broke down and got the game cause it was new, fresh and had nice graphics. Over time I got over it, and have enjoyed the game a great bit. The dolls in DOJ have never bothered me, but I don't need them personally. At least in DOJ games you still control a ship

I don't mind the character driven games, I don't mind if a shooter is not in space or if its not military themed. I like a mix.

But since Cave wants to be Cave, in order for them to make a game that caters to western markets maybe they could just make the girls legal aged.

It didn't bother me as much because they were in a gothic world. If they were just hot gothic chicks flying around in a cartoony gothic world...well, that's pretty cool. I dug the theme. I just didn't care that they were so young.

The girls in the latest DDP release really stand out. Big mech lolis just look cheesy.

[evil_ash_xero]

There'd be more focus on Raizing if they were still making games. It's been what, 8 years since Brave Blade? 13 since Garegga? Is there anything new to discuss with their games?

Considering how they never bothered to explain a lot of the in-depth workings of most of their shooters, there probably still is, at least until all the ROMs are hacked to bits.

On topic, I have to agree with you that there's not much of a way to tell what the future holds until it gets here - yeah, DS2 looks pretty poor, but judging by the general reaction it's been getting hopefully it'll just wind up an anomaly. Also, I'm surprised that no one (unless I missed it) has bothered to bring up the fact that Cave is finally testing the waters for wider releases of its games - if this works out for them, who knows what doors might open for them one way or the other. Either way, not much we can do but buy what we like and leave what we don't, and hope the overall landscape follows suit.

One thing that excited me was that with DS, it was actually a pretty unique shooter in the Cave library. It stood out, gameplay-wise, and was something different. I really like Cave, but you know, I think there will be a point when you'll be like "this is good, but this is too much like such and such". So, it was exciting to get a new quality game. But then they screwed up the sequel.

I would love to see a few more side scrollers from them, with more unique gameplay elements. That would be really fresh.

I doubt it's going to happen though.

[neist]

I've somewhat avoided this thread so far, but I thought I'd chime in.

I wouldn't really say that shmups are on their last hurrah. If something doesn't pick up, will the industry change? Sure, it will, but if someone stops releasing titles, then the genre will simply adapt to it. I mean, there's not exactly a lot of good Adventure games released anymore, but people still are fans of the genre.

But maybe I've already came to peace with it. I've never been attracted to Cave games for the most part, so I haven't seen any new releases that have attracted my attention in quite some time. Every company has their specific flavor, and theirs isn't one I enjoy.

But as many have already said, and I believe it, I could play the games that already exist for the rest of my life and be fairly satisfied.

[kemical]

I like this art style:

yea man, I hear you. I'm waiting, and expecting, the time to come when 3D games match the traditional art styles we have seen on flyers, like that Dogyuun one for example, there is a certain language that can be pulled from that image and you could have a talented artist create more scenes in the same style. With the right technical art skill we could have a 2d shooter (running in 3D), that looks exactly like that flyer, it could play exactly like Dogyuun except actually look like the flyer art, it just takes skill/knowledge/talent... I think as time progresses it will be very usual to see distinct art styles that are so far beyond the common identifiable 3d specular/normal mapping blur that is commonplace now, just because of how technical knowledge matures/spreads and technology advances

[Domino]

I like this art style:

yea man, I hear you. I'm waiting, and expecting, the time to come when 3D games match the traditional art styles we have seen on flyers, like that Dogyuun one for example, there is a certain language that can be pulled from that image and you could have a talented artist create more scenes in the same style. With the right technical art skill we could have a 2d shooter (running in 3D), that looks exactly like that flyer, it could play exactly like Dogyuun except actually look like the flyer art, it just takes skill/knowledge/talent... I think as time progresses it will be very usual to see distinct art styles that are so far beyond the common identifiable 3d specular/normal mapping blur that is commonplace now, just because of how technical knowledge matures/spreads and technology advances

I just love the Dogyuun flyer for how extremely detail it is. It doesn't creep me out, and the artwork is fantastic. The artwork is so good that a poster can be made out of it. If there's one good thing about Dogyuun it is how detail the game is itself. Of course gameplay is a different story but when I had the PCB you just have to say "Man the art is cool!"

Now when I even attempt to look at for example Death Smiles I just have to look away. The artwork is trash and don't get me started on the music.

When I play a STG the artwork and music are VERY IMPORTANT to me.

[AraraSPAMWitch]

WTF is wrong with Japan? 10-13 year old girls in that shit and don't forget those flyers in the back have those paper games.

I feel ya about preferring mechanical designs over flying people, since nothing feels more epic than watching a lone starfighter/mech raise hell over a futuristic cityscape (we really need more mech shooters, by the way) but Jesus, what the fuck is with people not being able to look at a fucking cartoon character unless they're "legal age"? Hell, half the loli-looking girls coming out of Japan are 8000 years old anyway, so when it comes to ages in fictional, drawn jp stuff the age is really immaterial since the artist can say whatever the hell he wants. Yoko is 14? Dizzy is what, 3? Half the girls in Touhou have been around since the dawn of time? Whatever.That DS2 poster's mad tame anyway, if frilly bows and boots on drawings of fictional girls who we are told are 13 or whatever get your panties in a knot, your sense of reality is way out there. It's not like Cave is kidnapping junior high girls, slapping some fishnet stockings on them, and digitizing their sprites Mortal Kombat-style for DS3.

Again, I want the current "beautiful people flying in the sky with frilly bows" kick STG developers have been on to end as much as the next guy, but the downright idiotic moralization is obnoxious.

[Herr Schatten]

the downright idiotic moralization is obnoxious.

This.

Why are people so obsessed with the supposed age of cartoon characters, even to the point that they refuse to play the games? I could see their point if we were talking about dating sims or porn games, but it's STGs. It doesn't change the gameplay the least bit whether you're controlling planes, spaceships or flying people. There's already thousands of generic looking space/war shooters. It would be difficult to make a new one and make it stand out. I for one appreciate getting some fresh scenarios like Galuda, Mushi, or Deathsmiles. At some point in the future the flying people theme will develop into a generic formula, too. But until then: original >> generic.

[Skykid]

I think that people here in general are a little bit too obsessed with Cave.

They are fucking amazing though.

[Dragoforce]

I think that people here in general are a little bit too obsessed with Cave.

They are fucking amazing though.

I agree. Shmups.com people are awesome in every way

[Jockel]

Zing!

[Danbo]

the emphasis on characters is clearly to try to appeal to a wider audience. if you can shoehorn in some sex appeal you might get a few more customers...

i hate the style of deathsmiles but i don't have any big issue with "flying people" shmups. i prefer industrial stylings like garegga rather than the slightly-more out-there stuff of the donpachi series but if it's a good game then i couldn't care less about frilly dresses and/or visible cleavage.

shmups have been Dead for years but the simplicity/intensity of the core gameplay means they will always appeal to a niche of people. i expect if cave close their doors then you'd get some employees out of there still hammering out stuff as budget console releases or something similar. shmups will probably be pretty popular in the doujin scene forever, but sadly really good doujin games are few and far between...

[Domino]

I feel ya about preferring mechanical designs over flying people, since nothing feels more epic than watching a lone starfighter/mech raise hell over a futuristic cityscape (we really need more mech shooters, by the way) but Jesus, what the fuck is with people not being able to look at a fucking cartoon character unless they're "legal age"? Hell, half the loli-looking girls coming out of Japan are 8000 years old anyway, so when it comes to ages in fictional, drawn jp stuff the age is really immaterial since the artist can say whatever the hell he wants. Yoko is 14? Dizzy is what, 3? Half the girls in Touhou have been around since the dawn of time? Whatever.That DS2 poster's mad tame anyway, if frilly bows and boots on drawings of fictional girls who we are told are 13 or whatever get your panties in a knot, your sense of reality is way out there. It's not like Cave is kidnapping junior high girls, slapping some fishnet stockings on them, and digitizing their sprites Mortal Kombat-style for DS3.

Again, I want the current "beautiful people flying in the sky with frilly bows" kick STG developers have been on to end as much as the next guy, but the downright idiotic moralization is obnoxious.

I hate the loli thing in Anime, the dresses and shit and the sexulation of young girls (which is more or less the current trends of Anime/Okatu culture). I found it quite disgusting and annoying enough to not even play it. I don't own a 360, I have to drop down money for the PCB. When I do PCB shopping I'm very picky on the games that I want to buy.

Once again I must point out when it comes to shooting games characters designs ever appeal to me for the most part. I always prefer shooting games that uses mechanical designs.

[gray117]

First of all there is no such thing as a last hurrah. Its a nice phrase, and there is a bit of a hurrah going on. But nothing ever ends on a hurrah... this is why deathsmiles continues

There's an undertone to this question that seems a little unfortunate; the idea that you have to play a genre/game type a considerable amount of time to the detriment of others or else you're not a fan ... and/or that a constant stream of stuff that you want to buy validates your attention.

As a fan of the genre - I don't think there's anything wrong with dipping in and out, saying you prefer a certain play style, graphical style ... Maybe not even playing shmups that much in terms of hours...

Honestly, I don't think new shmup releases ever came that thick and fast?

The market share of shmups has changed massively of course, but I really think it is establishing itself quite firmly now that development is finding accessible/profitable routes back into the market. That is not that it will ever be a big market share - but at least a reliable and well respected one.

...last hurrah? ... indeed not ... the 360 is proving to be a nice rallying call though.

[lgb]

sorry Domino but iirc those two pictures were drawn by the same guy, so I see them as kin

also DSII's flyer is amazingly tame which is why I'm saying this

also ash maybe people would stop misunderstanding your topic if your actual topic (the topic title) wasn't so vague lol

[Taylor]

We're about to enter a decade where Street Fighter doesn't get an arcade release. If Cave can get more interest in their games by adding little girls and more sales by making their games 3D for easier ports, then that's what they should do. I, personally, couldn't care less if my character was a spaceship, little girl, or a big manly man.

Also, there have been games with little girls in them since the start. Admittedly promotional artwork usually depicts them jumping through the air enthusiastically, not spooning in a casket of roses, but there's nothing in a playthrough of Deathsmiles that makes you a sex offender.

[lgb]

you'd expect them to take the route Capcom is doing right now (as you have mentioned) and just start developing for consoles in the near future

[spadgy]

playing the huge back catalog of 90's era arcade shmups. I'm continually finding new interest in old stuff that I passed over when I first got into this hobby, and feel like I'll never get through it all.

This - there's so much to catch up on. I manage very few 1ccs/'completely conquered shmups' a year, so with about 50 years left on the planet at best for (and maybe only 30 or 40 with my faculties) there's more quality than I could ever play through. I'm not even saying I'm trying to beat them all; just that for me 2D shooters are about far more than what's new.

Last hurrah? I don't know. I think the community of a scene is as important as the games (let alone just new games), and it that regard we've got decades left. Think of all the arguing and shmupmeets ahead of us! On the shmup's doomsday clock, it's still early moringing, and I'm waking up late as usual...

[captpain]

you'd expect them to take the route Capcom is doing right now (as you have mentioned) and just start developing for consoles in the near future

Hopefully that means they'll add inertia and a healthbar.