Going to play Radiant Silvergun for the first time

[TVG]

i never played radiant silvergun, and dont plan to (had the chance the other day but preferred just to look)
yet its one of the games i hate the most, not because of the game itself but because of the morons that make it seem like radiant silvergun renders other shooters obsolete.
i also hate ikaruga for that, but a bit less. i like playing ikaruga tho, and will probably try to masteer it once i get something decent to play the DC games with(read: NOT the DC controller piece of crap)

if you ask me, i couldnt have made myself more clear, especially considenring i STARDED the post with "i never played RS"
id play it, but shelling that much cash for someething that looks like super aleste? no thanks. i know i can resell it, but if i had 150$ to spare, id buy something im likely to enyoy (like a saturn, a boot CD, layer section and batsugun + some other shit for that price) and its not based on "what i heard", its based on footage of the whole game, and off seeing the game in action.
hell thats not even the subject and i dont know why im discussing this.
radiant IS overrated among the R3TROGAM3R H4rdc0R3 sheep, and that pisses me off. ika suffers from this too.
lets just say ika is an excellent shmup among MANY others (unless you're a graphics whore, then i guess it lowers the count of excellent shmups a bit) and RS is something id rather not play, like super aleste (but there's people that consider super aleste the best game ever, eh?)
thanks for making me write useless crap.

rob: thar review made me laugh, and shenmue is awesome.

[BulletMagnet]

id play it, but shelling that much cash for someething that looks like super aleste? no thanks.

In your first post you said that you had the chance to try it (I'd assume without buying it), but decided to just watch instead. If you don't want to play the game then fine, everyone's tastes are different, but if that's the decision you've made then you've got no right to "hate" the thing, and subsequently bash it, if you haven't played it and never will. Hate the hype, the ridiculous price, so on and so forth, but you can't adequately directly criticize something you've only experienced secondhand and have no intention to observe more closely.

radiant IS overrated among the R3TROGAM3R H4rdc0R3 sheep, and that pisses me off.

"Anti" camps can bleat plenty loudly themselves...again I note, you've never played the game and still rail against it as if you're on a sacred mission. And plenty of others here love to take every opportunity to bash this game (or other games, or developers, etc.) every time it's so much as mentioned, even though doing so only creates unnecessary tension around here, as if any of us need more of that.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, and I'm not criticizing your taste in games either, but if you want to contribute anything to this type of discussion then I'd suggest adjusting either your perspective or your wording, or both.

[TVG]

no u

[ST Dragon]

Cool game, best Saturn Programmimg by far, nice graphics & sound even for todays standards, but it just didn't feel like a shmup imo.
Very overated imo.
No way is it worth 180$!

[Neon]

In your first post you said that you had the chance to try it (I'd assume without buying it), but decided to just watch instead. If you don't want to play the game then fine, everyone's tastes are different, but if that's the decision you've made then you've got no right to "hate" the thing, and subsequently bash it, if you haven't played it and never will. Hate the hype, the ridiculous price, so on and so forth, but you can't adequately directly criticize something you've only experienced secondhand and have no intention to observe more closely.

I'm no huge fan of RS, but I'd have to agree...

At the same time, I've decided not to get Trizeal because of some of the vid's I've seen...looks like it wouldn't appeal to me in the slightest. I'd go as far as to say that I bet it's terrible...but I haven't played it yet, so I'll have to reserve judgement

[raiden]

@Rob: great review, just one question: why do you consider RS better than Toaplan´s whole library? I remember playing Hellfire shortly after RS and immediately thinking: "same concept, just done way better".

[CMoon]

Worse than: Just about anything modern and handfuls of moldies.
Better than: Toaplan's library, Deep Blue

OUCH! It isn't the idea of someone rating RSG better than toaplan that hurts, it is saying that almost everything is better than Toaplan.

Man, where's the love?

[Turrican]

it seems to borrow more from super aleste type games than arcade shooters.

You've read my mind.

You know, in all these shmupping years I've read lots of Radiant praise, but nothing came close like the this to make me shell out money for a SS + RSG.

If there is any trace of truth in your comment, then the praise RSG gets must be somewhat deserved. (not to the point to be better than Super Aleste, of course, but still fricking awesome).

But I don't really know if I can trust your review Rob. I mean, the music not fitting the shmup... Sounds like "Hey, I have to bash its music, too!"

[Moogs]

The problem is there are people who genuinely love Radiant Silvergun, and people who sincerely hate it. Both groups generally have legitimate reasons for their stances.

But, then you've got the people who praise RS based on hype alone, in addition to the people who hate it just cos they need to go against the grain to feel like individuals. None of the people in either of the aforementioned camps are likely to have even played the game.

The solution for harmony between us all? I dunno. Shut the fuck up, perhaps?

[TVG]

The solution for harmony between us all? I dunno. Shut the fuck up, perhaps?

that should apply to anyone who doesnt understand that i just bash the hype, or not even the hype but "because of the morons that make it seem like radiant silvergun renders other shooters obsolete." to quote myself.

but since this goes WAAAAAY beyond this board understanding, i quit.

[incognoscente]

no u

hi2u

[Rob]

why do you consider RS better than Toaplan´s whole library? I remember playing Hellfire shortly after RS and immediately thinking: "same concept, just done way better".

My memories of them are as the worst brand of shooters. It's been awhile, but they always seemed entirely drab and challenging in the worst ways.

But I don't really know if I can trust your review Rob. I mean, the music not fitting the shmup... Sounds like "Hey, I have to bash its music, too!"

I do feel the music is out of place for shooters in general. After playing FFT, this style of game music is instantly associated with medieval settings, not shooters that take place in 20XX. I didn't really care for Soukyugurentai's soundtrack, either. Half of the problem is that these tracks strike me as Final Fantasy Tactics leftovers. Nothing near as good as FFT's most memorable tracks. Unlike Gradius V, which has vague reminders of the style, but redressed in a way to make it unique.

[Palmer Eldritch]

Why do you think I call it the Holy Grail of Saturn shmups? Because it is nigh impossible to obtain for the remotely sane.

$180 is pretty good actually. I paid around $200 for RSG a couple of years ago, and the price seems to stay pretty much consistent.

Whether or not any game is worth that much I´d leave to the individual player to decide.
The prices asked for RSG really are nothing compared to (among other things) the $535 I paid for a certain PCE shooter.

Good game though (both, actually). I´m not a huge RSG fan and tend to find it overly stressfull, but I do actually return to it from time to time, which, I guess, is a testament to the games qualities.

--Michael

[Moogs]

The solution for harmony between us all? I dunno. Shut the fuck up, perhaps?

that should apply to anyone who doesnt understand that i just bash the hype, or not even the hype but "because of the morons that make it seem like radiant silvergun renders other shooters obsolete." to quote myself.

but since this goes WAAAAAY beyond this board understanding, i quit.

Well, the problem is that fans tend to not understand why people hate what they love, no matter how valid the hatred is. I was lucky enough to get a copy of RS around the time it was released, so the price wasn't the least bit inflated, and the only place I had heard about it was in GameFan. Needless to say, I wasn't bombarded with hype until years later when it became the "greatest shooter of all time."

I love the game to death (if my avatar wasn't evidence of that), but I can certainly understand why people would dislike it. As long as you dislike it AFTER you've spent a substantial amount of time with it.

And that goes for any game.

[jp]

Why do you think I call it the Holy Grail of Saturn shmups? Because it is nigh impossible to obtain for the remotely sane.

$180 is pretty good actually. I paid around $200 for RSG a couple of years ago, and the price seems to stay pretty much consistent.

Whether or not any game is worth that much I´d leave to the individual player to decide.
The prices asked for RSG really are nothing compared to (among other things) the $535 I paid for a certain PCE shooter.

Good game though (both, actually). I´m not a huge RSG fan and tend to find it overly stressfull, but I do actually return to it from time to time, which, I guess, is a testament to the games qualities.

--Michael

In this day and age, I think dishing out $100-500 for a fun game is worth it, since people don't seem to like making those anymore.


And the prices are only going to go up... shit, I'm kicking myself for not getting into the PC-Engine Duo a YEAR ago when a lot of the prices were half of what they are now.


But yes, Radiant Silvergun is a great game, its a shame so many hate it simply because a lot of people love it, and IMO its easily worth the price of admission.

[CMoon]

why do you consider RS better than Toaplan´s whole library? I remember playing Hellfire shortly after RS and immediately thinking: "same concept, just done way better".

My memories of them are as the worst brand of shooters. It's been awhile, but they always seemed entirely drab and challenging in the worst ways.

You might want to go back and check out Batsugun and Fireshark...even Truxton. I think we need to look at toaplan as mostly ancestral. Most of Toaplan's shmups proceed the vast bulk of shmups discussed here, and often we must endure subpar ports. It is also arguable that Toaplan nearly invented the modern shmup...hmmm, to me it would be like writing off compile...only Toaplan was more influential.

[BulletMagnet]

hmmm, to me it would be like writing off compile...

Heh, Rob's already got that covered too.

[Neon]

Madden is an awesome game. Such a shame a few people write it off just because everyone loves it.

And yes, Compile is awful. Should have stuck to puyo puyo games.

[Rob]

You might want to go back and check out Batsugun and Fireshark...even Truxton. I think we need to look at toaplan as mostly ancestral. Most of Toaplan's shmups proceed the vast bulk of shmups discussed here, and often we must endure subpar ports. It is also arguable that Toaplan nearly invented the modern shmup...hmmm, to me it would be like writing off compile...only Toaplan was more influential.

Batsugun is one I haven't played. Their earlier stuff just seems outclassed by Raiden, later stuff by Cave's stuff (I assume Batsugun is some point between Grindstormer and DonPachi, but I still have to play it). What surprises me the most is how apparently Toaplan people worked on Takumi games. The distance between those two points is startling. When I play old games like Fire Shark I don't really see anything that reminds me of modern games, Cave or Takumi.

[Super Laydock]

And yes, Compile is awful. Should have stuck to puyo puyo games.

Now that's what I call a flamebait!

Ah well, ignorance is a bless I guess...

[CMoon]

Batsugun is one I haven't played. Their earlier stuff just seems outclassed by Raiden, later stuff by Cave's stuff (I assume Batsugun is some point between Grindstormer and DonPachi, but I still have to play it). What surprises me the most is how apparently Toaplan people worked on Takumi games. The distance between those two points is startling. When I play old games like Fire Shark I don't really see anything that reminds me of modern games, Cave or Takumi.

Regarding Toaplan, I think the first thing that comes up is age. If you look at the top 25 list, the number of shooters from the 80's is very small, and there is a reason why. Even the best shmups from this period just feel extremely dated and sometimes enormously difficult to a lot of modern players. But everything must start somewhere.

For starters, while few would question Raiden, Raiden is very well understood to be a Toaplan tribute, and in gameplay it is a fantastic synthesis of fireshark and twin cobras.

Batsugun (which you simply must play, it certainly deserves a top spot in the top 25), is essentially Donpachi Zero, but with a flavor of its own unmatched by any other game. It is the refinement of Truxton 2 without all the absurd difficulty. It is also the very first manic shooter. I don't say this just as a toaplan fan--Rando gives it a 10 out of 10, and for good reason.

So yeah, I really suspect the wall you are hitting with these games are the age and bad-portage. Give Batsugun a try then work your way back to Fire Shark and others. They are really the beginning of the modern vertical shmup and deserve your attention; more so than RSG.

[jp]

Batsugun rapes your family while you watch. That game is so fucking evil. And this is coming from someone who 1CC'd it... once...

[CMoon]

Batsugun rapes your family while you watch. That game is so fucking evil. And this is coming from someone who 1CC'd it... once...

Hahahah! Well then what does Truxton do? Or Twin Cobras for that matter? I can only imagine cities burning and the end of the human race...

[jp]

Batsugun rapes your family while you watch. That game is so fucking evil. And this is coming from someone who 1CC'd it... once...

Hahahah! Well then what does Truxton do? Or Twin Cobras for that matter? I can only imagine cities burning and the end of the human race...

I'll let you know when I play them.


But seriously, Madzella, Jupiter, and Floor of the Galaxy are just the nastiest things I've ever seen in a videogame... I think...

[NTSC-J]

Rob, you may want to try Twin Cobra and Batsugun before you write Toaplan off. Batsugun Special Version plain outclasses all these modern shooters easily.

[Rob]

Are Toaplan's games well emulated in MAME? I remember trying Batsugun and the graphics were a complete mess.

[BrianC]

Are Toaplan's games well emulated in MAME? I remember trying Batsugun and the graphics were a complete mess.

Last time I checked, the sound still didn't work in Fire Shark, the graphics in Batsugun weren't emulated properly and only the bootlegs of Alcon/Slap Fight work (though they actually work very well, if I remember correctly). Truxton 1 and 2, Twin Cobra, and Flying Shark seem to be well emulated, though.

[SheSaidDutch]

Slap Fight is probably my favourite Toaplan game or Truxton 1.

[CMoon]

Hey, the megadrive cart of slapfight is going on Ebay for only $200 right now...

[raiden]

a few weeks ago, the Slapfight PCB went for €16 (!) on ebay