Nostalgia aside... Sonic games suck

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No_not_like_Quake
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Post by No_not_like_Quake »

KindGrind wrote:What I meant is that in 2d Sonic games the user has little to no control over what he's doing.
I don't agree with this. I plow through Sonic 1 and 2 and IMO the games control fine.

There are better platformers on the Genesis but the Sonics were alright.
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The Coop
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Post by The Coop »

Guess I'll share my thoughts...

To me, Sonic had his heyday during the 16-bit era. The first game, while rather linear and straight forward, had very nice graphics, good music, and fun levels to try and get through as quickly as you could (might as well, since there wasn't much to explore). Sonic 2 built on the first game's traits, by improving the graphics, adding better tunes, making the levels possess a bit more visual flare, and making it easier to get more chances at those elusive Chaos Emeralds. The levels were more diverse, and had more risks to be wary of (which required better memorization if you wanted to blow through them). Sonic 3 (and S&K) took the speed from 2, and cranked up the exploratory aspects. The levels were huge and fun to explore (yet they could still be sped through), the music was good, the graphics were better on all fronts, and being able to play as Tails and Knuckles, as well as Sonic, added more replayability. None of the games struck me as poorly designed, nor did their levels. All of them had tight controls, and you could move through them at your own pace. I can't say that I've ever felt the games were taking control from me either, and I certainly never thought they were too fast.

In short, Sonic 1 was good, Sonic 2 was better, Sonic 3 (and S&K) were the peak of the franchise (especially when combined). Sonic 3D Blast was a shift in a number of ways, but I thought Traveller's Tales did a good job with it. It doesn't play like the games that came before it, but it's still enjoyable to play through. I've been playing these games for a good number of years, and I've yet to find myself feeling like the linked-to reviewer. Are they the best of the best? No. Are they crap? Not by a long shot. They're quality platformers, and I don't see myself ever considering them to be anything less.

Regarding the three 8-bit Sonics on the Master System, they were quite fun as well. Like the Genesis games, they started good, and got better. None of them felt like a cheap port, or a half-assed cash-in attempt. Nice graphics and tunes, fun levels, and a good challenge.

Oh, and if Sonic had a low point in the 16-bit era, it was Sonic Spinball. Slowdown riddled, questionable hit detection... those two things alone crippled the game. And when you factor in that it's supposed to basically be a pinball game, you've got two fatal flaws. It also didn't help that the areas where you weren't bouncing around, were rather dull.


Obviously, these are all just my opinions.
Last edited by The Coop on Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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BulletMagnet
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Post by BulletMagnet »

captpain wrote:I have always felt like the game was too far 'zoomed in' and that you were forced to blindly zoom through the levels with no idea of what was coming. No fun.
If you thought this was bad on the Genesis, you'd better stay the heck away from the Game Gear Sonics.
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szycag
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Post by szycag »

After playing the Genesis version of Toki, I really don't mind the stop and go parts in Sonic 1 :p
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Turrican
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Post by Turrican »

The Coop wrote:Sonic 3 (and S&K) [...] the graphics were better on all fronts
Hmm, I disagree there. From Sonic 3 the graphics became a lot worse, muddier. The First two had crisp graphics.
The Coop wrote:Regarding the three 8-bit Sonics on the Master System, they were quite fun as well. Like the Genesis games, they started good, and got better.
Sonic 1 is the peak on SMS.

Other than these two points, I agree with your sentiments.
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Herr Schatten
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Post by Herr Schatten »

I agree with TheCoop.

But Turrican is right, Sonic 1 is the best one of the first three 8-bit Sonics. (I think there were 4 in total, but I might be wrong. I have only played the first three.) Sonic Chaos, while looking gorgeous in stills, is crippled by jerky scrolling, it's also a bit too easy (I finished it on my first go ever).
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evil_ash_xero
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Post by evil_ash_xero »

I disagree. I think the first one is good the second one is quite good, and Sonic 3 and Knuckles is one of my favorite platformers ever.

Sonic CD though, I don't like.
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Post by 320x240 »

Turrican wrote:
Joshua wrote:So now we have rings, and an infinite potential for recovery from nearly any mistake. But an action game can't be completely without obstruction or penalty, can it? Not to worry, they've added in some spikes and a few pitfalls. F-U-N. Add a corkscrew loop-the-loop and congratulations, you've just designed a Sonic the Hedgehog stage.
That ring criticism reminds me of Campbell's "too many lives in Ketsui DL" criticism. Recovering from mistake is good, it avoids frustration. But at the end, if you're only relying on that last ring, you may complete the stage but you still suck at the game.
Spikes and a few pitfalls are a common ingredient of the genre since well, Pitfall.
Yes, but in Pitfall they where you're one and only obstacle; they were the core of the game. In Sonic games they are not part of that core, speeding around obstacle courses is, and because of it the enemies feels like an afterthought (and a badly implemented one at that). That there are enemies in Sonic games is not bad design but the type of enemies and the role they play is. In short they use traditional enemies in a game that tries to break the tradition. The result is something that is neither nor. The enemies and their behaviour should have reflected the main idea behind the game, speeding around obstacle courses. Imagine, for instance, if everything was governed by time and the enemies slowed you down (but not to a halt) rather than killed you. Of course, such games existed long before Sonic.

Ed Oscuro wrote:Shinobi, Rolling Thunder, and E-SWAT are sort-of the thinking man's Sega platform platformer (in before somebody mentions something more obscure but awesome like Ranger X).
Flicky...
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Stormwatch
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Post by Stormwatch »

No_not_like_Quake wrote:For early 90s Sega platformers, I prefer Magical Troll Talut.... w/e the fuck it's called.
Magical Tarurūto-kun. Or, well...
Depending on where you see it, this game has about five to ten different names it goes by. Here's a quick rundown of what I've seen: Magical Troll Adventure, Magical Taluluto Adventure, Magical Guy, Magical Talurut, Magical Tarot, Majikaru Taluluto-kun, Magical Taruruuto kun, Magical Poo-Poo Head, Magical Panda-headed Flapjack Slapper, etc...
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The Coop
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Post by The Coop »

Herr Schatten wrote:I agree with TheCoop.

But Turrican is right, Sonic 1 is the best one of the first three 8-bit Sonics. (I think there were 4 in total, but I might be wrong. I have only played the first three.) Sonic Chaos, while looking gorgeous in stills, is crippled by jerky scrolling, it's also a bit too easy (I finished it on my first go ever).
There was a Master System version of Spinball too, and Sonic Blast came out for the Master System in Brazil. So really, there were five. But Spinball never struck me as a "real" Sonic game, and Sonic Blast... well, I didn't even know about :lol:

On which one's the best, I've always thought Sonic 2 was the best of the 8-bitters. It just feels, looks and plays better to me. Chaos was about the same as 2 for me.


Turrican- Keep in mind, I'm not saying Sonic 2 on the Genesis is an ugly game compared to Sonic 3. Far from it. Sonic 2 is a graphically gorgeous game. I just feel that Sonic 3 has an edge in areas like the characters, a good number of the backgrounds, the special stages, and whatnot. They didn't strike me as muddy at all. Sure, some areas didn't have as much shading or 3D detail as they could have, but the same could be said for Sonic 2.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on it.




...

Hell, now I wanna play me some Sonic :lol:
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Alec
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Post by Alec »

Nope, I love Sonic the Hedgehog every time I play it. Mostly the first one. I like the other genesis titles, but i dont have the carts.
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lilmanjs
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Post by lilmanjs »

the dreamcast sonic games were good, but all the rest aren't really all that great.
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Post by atro_city »

I pretty much agree with The Coop about the 16-bit Sonic games (didn't even know the 8-bit ones existed), with Sonic 3 & Knuckles being one of my favorite games for the Genesis. One flawed difficulty mechanic (picking up lost rings) doesn't come close to ruining the games for me. Even with that, some of the stages like the classic Scrap Brain Zone managed to be very challenging. I mean, it would've been nice for Sonic to lose a certain number of rings each hit (say, 20 or 30) and not be able to get them back instead, but again, it doesn't take away from the platforming/exploring aspect of the games.

I think Sonic 3D Blast (Genesis version) got a raw deal when it comes to reception. The game shows that even as Sonic, you don't need speed to have a good time. I think it was a pretty decent 3D platformer for its time, and it had a really good soundtrack as well (I mean, come on...how can you listen to Volcano Valley Zone's music and not think "awesome"?).

In short, it's easy to hate on an old game when you look at it with a jaded 2009 perspective. You could just as easily give SMB, Pac-Man, Frogger, Donkey Kong, etc. the same treatment.
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BryanM
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Post by BryanM »

Almost all platformers seem mediocre, don't they?

I blame bland, cozy environments that like to hug you. I Wanna Be The Guy is about the opposite of that, and that's a game I think really captures the essence of the genre.. the glitchy controls are just icing on the cake.

Those obstacle courses in Mario Sunshine were ridiculously fun. Eh well...
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Post by jpj »

lol ... soapbox
RegalSin wrote:Videogames took my life away like the Natives during colonial times.
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FRO
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Post by FRO »

szycag wrote:After playing the Genesis version of Toki, I really don't mind the stop and go parts in Sonic 1 :p
QFT! I never should have sold my copy of Toki, despite hours of uber-frustration with it, but play that all the way through & you'll think Sonic is the platform game ever.
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Post by Fenrir »

Pff Tearaway Tomas? Slick, sure. But it was really, really embarassing. Sloppy character design, incredible abuse of Copper and laughable level design. If anything, we should compare Sonic to Zool, problem is that the character played too much like a feather and there was no feedback when collecting stuff from the ground - not to mention the relative impossibility of noticing collectibles from the often chaotic backgrounds. And the inertia - wtf. I thought one would learn after Cool Spot.
I don't know what went wrong with programmers when they made potential gems like Fire & Ice and Rolling Ronnie but the character felt and played like a freakin' brick. What a shame.
There were already masterpieces like James Pond, Robocod, Flood, P.P. Hammer (Spelunk anyone?) and Silly Putty, so westerners know how to do great platformers that play like a charm.
I won't start with the overrated Bitmap Brothers platformers (Magic Pockets? Urgh) and Team 17 (Assassin? OMG. Superfrog? Please - they wanted it to be the new Sonic).

Huh... I digress.
I don't know why but I've always hated sonic games. I was so envious of Sonic when I saw it appearing on Amiga magazines as "the game that the Amiga will never have". So I rabidly tried it at some friend's house and boy did it feel unplayable. It was like playing with a gameboy. When you run, everything blurs and you can't possibly react to ANYTHING in time unless you've got a bionic eye. When you don't run, it's like playing underwater. No, under a freakin' sea of JELLY. And I'm sorry, this is not really good to my tastes.
Not to mention the usual screechy music and daunting sound effects, but that was a limit of the machine itself and can't complain, even though it was really annoying.
I bought a megadrive years later and bought sonic 1, 2 and 3. Then I bought the Sonic Collection for GC. See, I gave it a try. But no, thanks. A game that gives its best when it's completely unplayable (aka. full speed missile sonic) and show its limits when you can actually play at normal speed is crap to me.
It was like that in the early nineties and it's still like that.
The only sonic I really really enjoyed was the first Sonic Adventure for DC. The balance between what you had to do while running and what you had to do while walking was well conceived, even in appearantly messy levels like Windy Valley.
Sonic was like a prime time at the Moulin Rouge. Explosive, happy, young, jaw-breaking to see, but behind the bunch of flashing lights and frills there was just a lot of heavy clothings that hindered movements :D
And btw, what's with his bully attitude? I've never seen such an annoying, bratty and irritating character in my life. I'd like to smack people like him in the face.

Augh.
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Stormwatch
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Post by Stormwatch »

James Pond SUCKS. There, I said it.
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Post by Fenrir »

Stormwatch wrote:James Pond SUCKS. There, I said it.
Sorry man :D can't see your point.
Srsly, James Pond was a gem. Technically and audiovisually. Loads of colours at once, loads of sprites on screen without a single slow-down. Fascinating backgrounds, great playability, excellent level design. Good music, great effects, nice plot quirks.
Long and quite difficult too... and the huge levels (no slowdowns or scrolling breakups like in Sonic ;) ) were literally littered with secrets.

Can't really see what's wrong with that one :P
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Stormwatch
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Post by Stormwatch »

TEDDY BEAR HEADS

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Fascinating for a horror movie, you mean? This shit is ugly and freakish. Go play Socket to see what's a good-looking platformer on the Genesis.
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Fenrir
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Post by Fenrir »

Ok. But that's not James Pond. That's James Pond II: Robocod. I'm talking about James Pond.

And by the way, what you linked is the MD version of Robocod, which sucks in comparison to the Amiga version ;) the Amiga version doesn't have all the confusing crap and heads in the background.
No wonder that the NDS conversion is based on the Amiga version, not the MD one ;)

AND BTW HEADS ARE NOT ENOUGH TO BASH A VIDEOGAME OMGLOLolzlz
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Koa Zo
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Post by Koa Zo »

Turrican wrote:Baah, I strongly disagree.

The tension between racing through stages as quickly as possible and exploration is precisely what makes these games stand the test of time.
Sonic CD included.
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Turrican
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Post by Turrican »

Cool Coyote a brick? You, sir, have lost your mind! :o
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Herr Schatten
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Post by Herr Schatten »

Turrican wrote:Cool Coyote a brick? You, sir, have lost your mind! :o
Quoted for truth.
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Post by 320x240 »

Fenrir wrote:[...]
I was with you until you mentioned James Pond. Slow and boring. Try Gribblys Day Out on the C64 instead...

BryanM wrote:Almost all platformers seem mediocre, don't they.
At least the scrolling ones and especially those made in the 16-bit era. If you like 'I Wanna be the Guy' Try some of Steve Baks platformers. Hercules for the C64 and Yolanda for the Amiga.
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Post by Fenrir »

Turrican wrote:Cool Coyote a brick? You, sir, have lost your mind! :o
It's a fact :P gravity works too much on the main sprite, so it feels like you're maneuvering a brick. Also the char could've used some refining ;) I'm not saying that the game is bad - being a missed-masterpiece-by-an-inch doesn't mean it's a piece of crap like tearaway thomas :D
Rollng Ronnie, on the other side, flies like a freaking elastic, feeling bricky for the opposite reason.
Havin' the right feel is important and few platformers manage to convey a real feeling of total control (and so we get in topic again as well...). You might say but but but you say you like robocod but that game is a nightmare, it's got a fucking uncontrollable inertia the faster you go. Yes, but if you jump-land with the stick pointing down, the character almost glues to the ground. This gives gameplay quite a nice perspective in terms of "tricks".
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Turrican
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Post by Turrican »

Fenrir wrote:
Turrican wrote:Cool Coyote a brick? You, sir, have lost your mind! :o
It's a fact :P gravity works too much on the main sprite, so it feels like you're maneuvering a brick. Also the char could've used some refining ;) I'm not saying that the game is bad - being a missed-masterpiece-by-an-inch doesn't mean it's a piece of crap like tearaway thomas :D
Come on man, since when a bit of inertia harmed platforming. Mario has jump inertia too. Fire & Ice is the best platform the Amiga has ever seen, hands down. :P
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Fenrir
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Post by Fenrir »

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Rainbow Islands is the pinnacle :D
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Turrican
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Post by Turrican »

Maximum respect to that one, amazing port, but Cool Coyote is a commodore native so let's be patriotic! :wink:
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Post by 320x240 »

Fenrir wrote:BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Rainbow Islands is the pinnacle :D
No, Little Beau aka Kid Gloves 2 is. Best Wonderboy in Monsterland clone ever...

What about Prophecy? I never played it but it was called a Wonderboy clone (and had a 'viking' setting which is always good).
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