Nostalgia aside... Sonic games suck

A place where you can chat about anything that isn't to do with games!
User avatar
indstr
Posts: 802
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:27 pm
Contact:

Nostalgia aside... Sonic games suck

Post by indstr »

This article sums up how I feel about Sonic games these days

http://insomnia.ac/reviews/megadrive/sonicthehedgehog2/

I loved Sonic & Sonic 2 when they were new. But every time I've tried to play them in the past 4 or 5 years, I have come to the same conclusion as that article -- the speed does not help the gameplay. The level design is crap. :(

I should just stop trying to ever play a Sonic game again, so I can preserve my memories of being 12 :D
If more 2D people would go to the 2D Gaming Forum, there would be more people to talk about 2D games with other 2D fans on the tootie gaming forum. It's 2Dlicious. For real yall
User avatar
D
Posts: 3801
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Almere, Netherlands
Contact:

Post by D »

Agreed, but it was the best looking thing ever. That and the speed.
That and Sega suddenly had a mascot we segafanboys could slap our nintendo fanboy friends with.
Dreamcast sonic's were better.
I recently got some sonic collection for the ps2 with Sonic CD. I am playing this and thinking: "why? what am I doing".
Sonic is a very childish basic platformer with some funny effects and simple puzzles. Sonic doesn't even have a weapon. Very basic, a small child can play it. one frigging button. It's almost like an unfinished game. Somebody make a good Sonic 2D HD sprite game were he has weapons, air dashes and evil and fast smart enemies!
User avatar
BulletMagnet
Posts: 14160
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:05 am
Location: Wherever.
Contact:

Post by BulletMagnet »

D wrote:Agreed, but it was the best looking thing ever. That and the blast processing!.
Fixed. ;)
User avatar
indstr
Posts: 802
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:27 pm
Contact:

Post by indstr »

D wrote:Very basic, a small child can play it. one frigging button. It's almost like an unfinished game.
Dude dude dude... Slow down for a second! Simplicity is not necessarily bad. Check out N+ (or the flash game N if you want a slower version).. This single screen platformer is badass as hell, and so challenging you could never say it's a child's game. Yet it only has 3 things to do -- left, right, and jump.

Or if you want to go further...
Fly the copter only has 1 button total. And it is addictive as all getout :)
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/copter

Or, we could talk about Mars Matrix, which only has button. But that shit is NOT simple. :shock:
BulletMagnet wrote:
D wrote:Agreed, but it was the best looking thing ever. That and the blast processing!.
Fixed. ;)
Blast processing is the best nonexistent technology there ever was!!!
If more 2D people would go to the 2D Gaming Forum, there would be more people to talk about 2D games with other 2D fans on the tootie gaming forum. It's 2Dlicious. For real yall
320x240
Posts: 655
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:07 pm
Location: France

Post by 320x240 »

I always thought the first few Sonic games where wastly overrated myself, after I finally got to play them through emulation. I don't mind the speed but the levels aren't really designed to take advantage of it. It's simply to much stop-start, stop-start until you figure out a safe course. Then it becomes fun. What's the use of spikes everywhere in a game that is (or should be) all about speed?

To me it seems like the Sonic games are trying to be two games in one - both a high-speed obstacle course and a typical collect'em-up like most other 16-bit platformers. Besides, I thought Terraway Thomas on the Amiga got the whole high-speed in a platformer thing down a lot better.
User avatar
Jon
Posts: 1114
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:46 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Post by Jon »

I wouldn't go so far to say that they suck but they haven't aged well.
User avatar
null1024
Posts: 3823
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:52 pm
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Contact:

Post by null1024 »

Hm. I really wouldn't have gone so far as to say it sucked, but it was WAY too easy [until Metropolis, which is actually kind of hard]. On average, Sonic 2 will take up all of 1.5 hours of my time, 2 if I go for the emeralds [I hate you last emerald...]. Without continuing.

However, Sonic 3(&K) fixed everything, by slowing down the pace a bit, and allowing more challenge into it.
Come check out my website, I guess. Random stuff I've worked on over the last two decades.
User avatar
Turrican
Posts: 4727
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:28 am
Location: Landorin
Contact:

Post by Turrican »

Baah, I strongly disagree.

I didn't play them back then - I was an obnoxious nintendo boy. I only managed to play them much later (2000 and on). What I found was a winner series of platformers. Well, at least 1 and 2, I don't consider the rest.

The speed factor is good, and 2 has outstanding level design. The tension between racing through stages as quickly as possible and exploration is precisely what makes these games stand the test of time.

Of course, it's perfectly reasonable to appreciate more the slower pace and more puzzle oriented Mario style, but it becomes a matter of taste. Also, the fact that Nintendo cherished its characters and went on creating legendary games up to Yoshi's Island, while Sega basically ran out of ideas after Sonic 2 and dropped the ball, shouldn't detract from the awesomeness of Sonic 1 and 2.

P.S. Tearaway Thomas was nothing short of embarrassing. When I got it on my 500 I was giggling "eh eh, finally we got our own Sonic". Years later I was exposed to the actual Sonic games, and I was ashamed of myself. The Amiga was great, but the only platformer it had on par with Sonic is Fire & Ice.
Image
X - P - B
User avatar
gabe
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:53 pm
Location: US

Post by gabe »

Jon wrote:I wouldn't go so far to say that they suck but they haven't aged well.
Bingo.

Everything on insomnia.ac has a radical slant.

It's a radical slant I love. But radical none-the-less.

I generally agree with what is said in that article, however you must remember that hindsight is 20/20. You also must remember that the kids who grew up playing Sonic games in the "golden era" are now grown ass men. It should come as no surprise that the 15 year old gimmicks have lost a bit of their luster when viewed through the retrospective eyes of an adult.
Last edited by gabe on Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ganelon
Posts: 4413
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:43 am

Post by Ganelon »

I don't get the complaints at all. I replayed all the games again a few years back when Sonic Mega Collection+ hit and it was even better than I remembered it. The graphics were amazingly smooth for the time, music was excellent, controls were spot-on, and the mechanics were fun. What more could you ask for? A 3D camera with poor visibility and dizzying perspectives?

Is it geared towards kids? Sure, same with most things featuring anthropomorthic animals. Now, Sonic 2 is definitely the oddball of the cardinal Sonic titles with its mostly straightforward stage designs but how is speed to blame when there's pretty much nowhere to rush with abandon past the first 2 zones? Since when did low difficulty make a game bad?

Also, Sonic should share no blame for itemizing; rings were simply a unique combo concept of score/life and Chaos Emeralds weren't anything less than the collection systems for Mario and Rockman. Donkey Kong Country is still the most deserving of blame for mixing saving with rampant pointless collecting. Sonic simply was about using a particular design to really *experience* the game, a concept used by other games like Kirby, Myst, and even Harmful Park.

They don't really focus on challenge or groundbreaking new features but rather, they elicit a particular feeling out of you. Is interactivity so important that you would seek less enjoyment with full control rather than experience what the designer intended? If so, you're basically complaining about an aspect of the game that wasn't an objective in the first place.
User avatar
Herr Schatten
Posts: 3286
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:14 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Herr Schatten »

I partly agree.

The 16-bit Sonics haven't aged particularly well, and at least the first 8-bit game, which ditched highspeed in favor of better level design, is much more fun to play today. (The second one is also fine, although it has its issues.)

The Mega Drive games are still fun games, though, just vastly overrated.
320x240
Posts: 655
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:07 pm
Location: France

Post by 320x240 »

Turrican wrote:Of course, it's perfectly reasonable to appreciate more the slower pace and more puzzle oriented Mario style, but it becomes a matter of taste.
I can't stand the SMB series myself, precicely because of a lack of speed.
Turrican wrote:P.S. Tearaway Thomas was nothing short of embarrassing. When I got it on my 500 I was giggling "eh eh, finally we got our own Sonic". Years later I was exposed to the actual Sonic games, and I was ashamed of myself.
Tearaway Thomas does feel a bit empty but to me Sonic feels just as empty but is simply dressed up more. Of course, if the trade-off between speeding around and exploring feels right for you I can well believe the games are good fun. My first Sonic game was the PC-version of Sonic CD and that was already more about exploration than speed, which meant that the speed component (which was the draw for me) felt even more out of place.
User avatar
null1024
Posts: 3823
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:52 pm
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Contact:

Post by null1024 »

Herr Schatten wrote:(The second one is also fine, although it has its issues.).
The second 8-bit sucked. Cheap deaths, bad level design, only good thing was the music. And that wasn't good.
Triple Trouble was good though, and the first 8-bit Sonic was decent. Playable at least.
Come check out my website, I guess. Random stuff I've worked on over the last two decades.
User avatar
Turrican
Posts: 4727
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:28 am
Location: Landorin
Contact:

Post by Turrican »

Ganelon wrote:I don't get the complaints at all. I replayed all the games again a few years back when Sonic Mega Collection+ hit and it was even better than I remembered it. The graphics were amazingly smooth for the time, music was excellent, controls were spot-on, and the mechanics were fun. What more could you ask for? A 3D camera with poor visibility and dizzying perspectives?

Is it geared towards kids? Sure, same with most things featuring anthropomorthic animals. Now, Sonic 2 is definitely the oddball of the cardinal Sonic titles with its mostly straightforward stage designs but how is speed to blame when there's pretty much nowhere to rush with abandon past the first 2 zones? Since when did low difficulty make a game bad?

Also, Sonic should share no blame for itemizing; rings were simply a unique combo concept of score/life and Chaos Emeralds weren't anything less than the collection systems for Mario and Rockman. Donkey Kong Country is still the most deserving of blame for mixing saving with rampant pointless collecting. Sonic simply was about using a particular design to really *experience* the game, a concept used by other games like Kirby, Myst, and even Harmful Park.
Very well put Ganelon.

I think SMW is as guilty as DKC. In this platforming approach, you are basically invincible - Mario was even given a reserve power up, and stages don't get really challenging until you get to the star road. So the real challenge becomes collection - yoshi's coins, seeing all of a stage, discover alternate routes and so on. It's amazing, but once you've done it all, you can't bring yourself to come back to it. Platformers were going rapidly the SotN way.

What Sonic did was, simply, to reintroduce the arcade element into platforming. Unlike in SMW, you can easily screw a playthrough of Sonic 2 very early - be careless and you'll get into spikes, fall into a pit and so on. And there is no ingame save. The arcade element also reflects in the effective one button control, which is essential and clever. The game succeeds because it's simple, and the outcome depends on how well you play. Mario does become an adventure with time (SMB -> SMB3 - SMW) and in fact relies on battery backup. Doing a Sonic stage on the other hand is no different than doing a Raiden stage or a Tetris session.
Of course, if the trade-off between speeding around and exploring feels right for you I can well believe the games are good fun. My first Sonic game was the PC-version of Sonic CD and that was already more about exploration than speed, which meant that the speed component (which was the draw for me) felt even more out of place.
If you're saying that's a delicate balance to achieve, I agree: in fact, I think they really got it right only with 2. And partially Sonic 1 (I agree with Schatten that SMS 1 is better than MD 1 though).
Image
X - P - B
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Shinobi, Rolling Thunder, and E-SWAT are sort-of the thinking man's Sega platform platformer (in before somebody mentions something more obscure but awesome like Ranger X).
captpain
Posts: 1783
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:23 am

Post by captpain »

I have always felt like the game was too far 'zoomed in' and that you were forced to blindly zoom through the levels with no idea of what was coming. No fun.
User avatar
gabe
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:53 pm
Location: US

Post by gabe »

captpain wrote:I have always felt like the game was too far 'zoomed in' and that you were forced to blindly zoom through the levels with no idea of what was coming. No fun.
I'm pretty sure that was very much intentional. It intensifies the "OMGWTF speed" feeling.
User avatar
indstr
Posts: 802
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:27 pm
Contact:

Post by indstr »

Turrican wrote:Of course, it's perfectly reasonable to appreciate more the slower pace and more puzzle oriented Mario style, but it becomes a matter of taste.
I have to disagree that Nintendo style platformers were "slower paced". At least you could improvise without knowing the level and still keep up your momentum. Sonic requires a much more logistical-thinking style approach of memorizing the level in order to maintain your speed. If you don't know the level, you're fucked and you're going to bump into walls/spikes. I.e. go slowly.

See below:
captpain wrote:I have always felt like the game was too far 'zoomed in' and that you were forced to blindly zoom through the levels with no idea of what was coming. No fun.
Sums it up perfectly dude :D Plus there's the fact that it's non-linear which in this case is not a good thing. So there are 2 or 3 different vertical sections of the level you can choose from at the same time... But if they are designed badly, what's the point? I'd much rather have a more refined level with a single focus (DKC is a perfect example of this).

I've heard some negative things mentioned about DKC here (and in the insomnia article too actually), but, collect-o-thon issues asside, I think DKC is actually one of the more polished & enjoyable platforming games ever. You can just ignore the bananas anyway... And just get them while you go but not worry about it too much.

I'm sure I'm going to get some flak now about this DKC issue.
If more 2D people would go to the 2D Gaming Forum, there would be more people to talk about 2D games with other 2D fans on the tootie gaming forum. It's 2Dlicious. For real yall
User avatar
Ed Oscuro
Posts: 18654
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Agred about DKC.

The good thing about DKC's collectathon stuff is that you can ignore it if/when you're a good player, just picking them up as needed and finding the secret hidden lives.

The bad thing is that new players will feel pressed (and become trained) to focus on a part of the game that isn't really important, even putting themselves in harm's way for something they don't really need.

Without some kind of computer-controlled difficulty adjustment, I think this is about as good a tradeoff as can be expected.
User avatar
sven666
Posts: 4544
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:04 am
Location: sweden
Contact:

Post by sven666 »

i always thought the MD sonics controls were kinda floaty.. great graphics and music tho, i still think the games are enjoyable, but yeah.. a bit overrated i guess, there are alot better platformers out there.
the destruction of everything, is the beginning of something new. your whole world is on fire, and soon, you'll be too..
User avatar
Turrican
Posts: 4727
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:28 am
Location: Landorin
Contact:

Post by Turrican »

Okay, let's elaborate a bit for the sake of it.
Joshua wrote:Given the fast rate of scrolling, any type of serious opposition from enemies would seem unfair, for starters.
Exactly. That's why they went the intelligent route and kept enemies rate low and less aggressive. There's nothing bad in enemies not being your primary concern.
Joshua wrote:So now we have rings, and an infinite potential for recovery from nearly any mistake. But an action game can't be completely without obstruction or penalty, can it? Not to worry, they've added in some spikes and a few pitfalls. F-U-N. Add a corkscrew loop-the-loop and congratulations, you've just designed a Sonic the Hedgehog stage.
That ring criticism reminds me of Campbell's "too many lives in Ketsui DL" criticism. Recovering from mistake is good, it avoids frustration. But at the end, if you're only relying on that last ring, you may complete the stage but you still suck at the game.
Spikes and a few pitfalls are a common ingredient of the genre since well, Pitfall.
Joshua wrote:You see, before Sonic 2, you had games like Wonder Boy, Rockman, Super Mario Bros. 2 (FDS), Jigoku Meguri, Wardner no Mori, et al. Games built on challenge. Overcoming a difficult platforming section in those games gave players a sense of accomplishment. They did something not everyone can do; they should feel proud.
That's the key paragraph when the reviewer lose credibility. That's not analysis, that's just a biased rant. His thesis: every game before Sonic 2 was a great, challenging masterpiece. Title he mentions: SMB Lost Levels. He doesn't mention, say SMB 2 USA, trying to trick us into believing that all the platformers of old were maddening as Lost Levels. Be sure that if a kiddo nowadays is able to complete Sonic 2, he should feel proud enough since the game didn't rely on battery saves, unlimited continues or credit feed. Anyway, the attempt to make of Sonic 2 a "turning point" falls flat in my opinion, because SMB2 USA and SMB3 were both already a generous concession in terms of challenge.
Joshua wrote:And after all, a mascot platformer's battleground wasn't just on the screen; it was on the cereal boxes, and what child wants to send in boxtops for a plush representation of a character whose game they resent? We see how well that worked out for Bubsy the Bobcat. Rockman NEEDS those energy tanks now. Mario NEEDS that cape to swoop over entire stages.
Let's insert a random rant about evil mascot marketing scheme, and let's relate it to gameplay changes like energy tanks for no apparent reasons.
Joshua wrote:The value of challenge is gradually disregarded. And supplanting challenge for sense of accomplishment? Bananas, balloons and bonus barrels. Big coins, small coins, red coins, blue coins. Chaos emeralds, diamonds, stars, remotes, tokens [...]
That kind of criticism marks the ("decrease in challenge") marks the evolution of the whole videogame industry, regardless of the genre. Of course it is all Sonic's fault. Never mind that you had plenty of collectibles before it (Bubble Bobble?), never mind that chaos emeralds in the list above are pretty much one of the few items that are actually hard to get.
Joshua wrote:There's a reason I'm singling out number two as well. The stage design in the original game was more compatible with what Sonic was: a glorified obstacle course. No meandering. No choice to go through one loop-the-loop over the other, snagging on something from another route. All you had to do was figure out how to maintain interia for as long as possible -- without the aid of spin-dashes, by the way.
And here's when the reviewer is ostensibly out of touch with the series. Actually this may be the first time I hear someone defend Sonic stages layout in comparison to the much improved sequel. In Sonic, they gave you a runner, and they constrained him into a rather traditional affair. Right at the second zone (marble), you are basically required to forget about speed and act as if you were any other platformer hero. In Sonic 2, they unleashed the character's true potential, by making him run fast into trouble... Which leads us to the last issue:
captpain wrote:I have always felt like the game was too far 'zoomed in' and that you were forced to blindly zoom through the levels with no idea of what was coming. No fun.
indstr wrote:Sums it up perfectly dude Very Happy Plus there's the fact that it's non-linear which in this case is not a good thing. So there are 2 or 3 different vertical sections of the level you can choose from at the same time... But if they are designed badly, what's the point? I'd much rather have a more refined level with a single focus (DKC is a perfect example of this).
Dudes, Sonic controls are simple and the action is fast - if it didn't have "trial and error" it wouldn't be a game, but just a pretty slideshow. Sure, you run into things and you'll die because of this. So, next time you approach the stage you'll know how to survive. Persist and you'll be able to keep your rings too, which is a good thing since you have limited lives. That's how Sonic works. That's pretty much why Sonic comes with a score indicator, while DKC doesn't. That's a whole shift in focus.
Image
X - P - B
User avatar
Ruldra
Posts: 4222
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:27 am
Location: Brazil

Post by Ruldra »

My only reaction to that review was LOL. I love the Sonic series and I see nothing wrong with Sonic 2. It's a lot of fun to play.

That's why I disregard reviews entirely. No one but me can say if I will enjoy the game or not.
[Youtube | 1cc list | Steam]
mastermx wrote:
xorthen wrote:You guys are some hardcore MOFOs and masochists.
This is the biggest compliment you can give to people on this forum.
User avatar
LaserGun
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:36 pm

Post by LaserGun »

I kind of agree with JoshF's review, the first game had better pacing and less loop the loops and gimmick stuff. 3+Knuckles is still one of my favourite games though. The series just hasn't aged well and it's probably one of those games best experienced as a kid (eyes wide, jaw dropped).

Also DKC is the video game equivalent of waterboarding. :lol:
User avatar
KindGrind
Posts: 1316
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:26 am
Location: Québec

Post by KindGrind »

Sonic (MD iterations) are too fast for their own good. Music and graphics were good, but gameplay has always been pretty bleh to me. Sonic Adventure was enjoyable though. While SMB 1 + 2 were pretty ordinary imo, there is nothing wrong with SMB3. In fact, this is the SMB game that I pick up and play the most even today.

One the whole, Sonic is very overrated.
Muchos años después, frente al pelotón de fusilamiento...
lgb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:12 pm

Post by lgb »

Somewhat agreed. I want Sega to make another Sonic 1.
User avatar
Strider77
Posts: 4732
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:01 am

Post by Strider77 »

lame...
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
User avatar
Neon
Posts: 3529
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:31 pm

Post by Neon »

The Genesis Sonics have really great graphics and sound but I could name a dozen better platformers off the top of my head. It's a shame that Sonic games have gotten all the recognition while truly great platformers like Wardner and Snow Bros languish in obscurity. One wonders if like, there were a ton of writers better than Shakespeare back in the day, but he's the one who gets remembered because everyone could agree on him

Sonic Adventure was much the same, good if corny music and graphics, but shit for gameplay with its bad camera and constant cutscenes. Sega seems content to keep re-making it ad nauseum however
User avatar
Dragoforce
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:00 am
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Dragoforce »

The first two Sonic games (mostly the second) for MD where quite good, after that everything went downhill.
Image
Swedish shmup community - stgfan.com
Do not be afraid...
No_not_like_Quake
Posts: 772
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:22 pm

Post by No_not_like_Quake »

For early 90s Sega platformers, I prefer Magical Troll Talut.... w/e the fuck it's called.
User avatar
KindGrind
Posts: 1316
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:26 am
Location: Québec

Post by KindGrind »

What I meant is that in 2d Sonic games the user has little to no control over what he's doing, the game being too fast. Gunstar Heroes, on the other hand, comes to mind as a great example of a pretty looking/sounding game with responsive controls.
Muchos años después, frente al pelotón de fusilamiento...
Post Reply