What you dont particualy like in shooters

[BulletMagnet]

A whole lotta stuff.

Not to drag this out or swerve the thread away from its original intention, but even as one who dislikes "arcane rank" I'm still able to appreciate a lot of the other creative ventures that Raizing, for instance, has taken, eben if they weren't completely successful: I'm absolutely smitten with the item collection concept in Dimahoo, as well as the truckload of secrets in Batrider and the great visual theme in Garegga, and enjoy playing all those games as well as others in that vein, so the fact that the company has done something "different" or "more in-depth" isn't in itself what bothers me, not by a long shot.

What bugs me about "arcane rank" in particular is that it requires the player not only to go against the usual "shmup instincts" of getting items and staying alive as long as possible, but that, as I said above, in most cases the player has no idea how to control it without a gargantuan amount of experimentation, since the game itself gives no indication whatsoever of how the system, which the player MUST know in order to succeed at it, is set up. A piece of this is the language barrier, certainly, but I doubt that Raizing's ever posted an explanation of a game's rank system on an arcade cab, or in an instruction booklet; if I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me. This whole concept frustrates me, since the player has to let the game beat the daylights out of him in every conceivable fashion in order to figure out how to best appease it: perhaps I'm just a "n00b," but I prefer to be able to know how a game works before I play it, and take my "challenge factor" from being able to best use what I know about the game, not in trying to figure it out as I stumble along. Then, as if that weren't enough, once one knows (or can make a guess at) what affects rank in a particular game, he has to figure out the best exact spots in-game to exploit it by dying, missing medals, etc., in order to "pace" himself to get to the end. "Deep," yes, but in spite of my best efforts to be open-minded I can't make the whole concept appeal to me.

On top of this, I hear some argue that rank is a good thing because it "makes the game act lighter on beginners": this really glazes my doughnuts, since most shmuppers new to such a game will play it as they play most others, staying alive, shooting stuff down, and collecting items as much as possible. As such, before long the game will beat the living daylights out of them, and if the player can't figure out how to "purposely suck" and calm the rank system down it'll happen again and again to him, every time he plays. The "rank is good for the n00bs" argument is pure baloney as far as I'm concerned; only experts who know the game inside and out are truly able to make it work in their favor.

I'm not trying to discredit those who like such rank systems here: if you can bring yourself to like and appreciate the grueling process that such games make you go through to master them, more power to you, as you'll be able to lord over those of us who can't on the Raizing scoreboards, and rightfully so. The main point I want to get across is that it's not the creative aspects of these systems that turn me off to them, and I would guess that this is the case with most others who think the same way.

*runs off to hide before Rando finds this*

[IlMrm]

Some have already been mentioned:

-Slow ship.
-Big/unclear hitbox.
-Weak firepower/take a long time to power up.
-Point blank shots from the side.
-Enemies from the bottom.
-Hard to see bullets.
-Enemy seeking missiles.

I actually like instant death lasers. They'll get me the first time, but after that they look cool when you dodge them.

[llaoyllakcuf]

Lock-on weapons, for ex: Macross Plus, RayForce, Soukyugurentai, etc.

but I don't mind if the enemies have them.

[GaijinPunch]

Chaining

[Randorama]

if I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Yeah, i think hey handled hints during the competition or perhaps even released official hand-outs/guides, at some point it was the norm to find fan-made guides to games in the japanese arcades ( this habit is waning along with arcades, sadly), some of them with actual input from the programmers ( i think SNK liked to release obscure tricks/combos/glitches, mainly via Neogeo freak though).

Let me guess however: do you plan, say, in ten years, to still write the non-sense rants you seem to insist on rank? You're amazing in your narrow-mindedness and your refusal of learning why you're wrong. Please avoid futile replies, i don't enjoy deja-vus.

[BulletMagnet]

As I said before, I'm not trying to derail this topic or (re)start a combustible argument, seeing as criticisms of ranks systems beyond a generalized "I don't like 'em," even if they include hefty disclaimers, seem to have been unofficially declared off limits around here (I should say I learned that lesson well enough). What I wanted to get across via my previous reply was that the "creative" aspect of rank is not what bothers me, and likely most others, about it, and I listed some of the reasons why it does, misguided and n00bish as they may be. As I said near the bottom of the post, it is, and always has been, personal preference: if you can work rank into your play style, you've got my respect. I, however, for my part, for whatever unfathomably silly reason, am unable to do that, at least at this point, and in spite of that I don't feel afraid to state my personal reasons for why that is, when the opportunity presents itself.

And thanks for the clarification on the company's distribution of rank info (rather fuzzy as it is, again likely due to the limited amount of info available in non-Japanese), but I do find it interesting that they only apparently released it for tournament settings, and let the fans do the rest...if nothing else it at least gives a bit of credibility to my anti-"rank is good for n00bs" standpoint.

That's all, I'm not saying another word about this, as that's all there is to it. Saying more than that in an effort to explain oneself further than that, I've found, is a surefire way to major headaches and locked topics.

[zimeon]

I can fully (well...) understand if people like games with arcane ranking systems. Everyone likes different aspects of games, the same with shmups, and I can perfectly imagine people having fun learing to control the rank system in a specific game by purposedly dying here and there. However it's not an axiom or eternal truth that that sort of gameplay has to be considered as fun. To call a non-liking of rank system as "narrow-mindedness" is a bit, well, narrow-minded.

Like BulletMagnet, I'm not playing shmups to purposedly die at strategic points which I have to learn. I'm playing shmups to dodge bullets, shoot things down, collect as many powerups as possible and try to stay alive for as long as possible. These aspects are what I consider "fun gameplay" in shmups. To have to suicide in order for the game not to punish me for being good is what I consider as "boring gameplay". In any type of game, actually. I remember some early RPGs who treated me that way, and I that bored the heck out of me.

I'm not frowning if a game throws a little bit more at me if I'm playing very well, but it's not supposed to overwhelm an utterly kill me.

So, for not liking arcane ranking system, will you consider me as a non-true-shmuppet? Fine by me. I keep playing my shmups anyway. And yes, in ten years I will still dislike arcane ranking systems.

[Icarus]

What bugs me about "arcane rank" in particular is that it requires the player not only to go against the usual "shmup instincts" of getting items and staying alive as long as possible, but that, as I said above, in most cases the player has no idea how to control it without a gargantuan amount of experimentation, since the game itself gives no indication whatsoever of how the system, which the player MUST know in order to succeed at it, is set up.

Experimentation is the key factor in improving technique in this genre, and moreso when Raizing's games are involved. Granted, the flow of information regarding these kinds of systems is hazy at best, and is often limited to the stuff you find in Gamest/Arcadia, or on fansites such as the Japanese capture guides and our own Strategy forum, however the information is there. And a lot of time, discovery of the methods to control these kinds of systems are done by experimentation on the player's part, trying out tricks and methods to incorporate into their own play style.

I remember a long time ago on the Shmups forum - before Gamespy, before Network54, before the one before that - I posted a thread screaming about my inability to comprehend Garegga, along the lines of "I hate this game! I can't see a goddamn thing! The game gets stupidly hard for no reason!" Around about that time I dropped the game from my list, and played Dodonpachi instead.
One day, I was looking for something to play, and decided to give the game another chance, and for some reason, everything began to fall into place. I realised that the game requires your undivided attention, not just in the mastery of the rank and score systems, but in surveying your surroundings, to be totally aware of everything that is going on in front of you and behind the scenes. I started to "see" the bullets, if you will, and began to experiment with my own strategies to manipulate the rank system, and that is when the game fully absorbed me. The more I experimented, the more I began to understand the basics behind the game, and the more I learned, the more I could try to push what I could do in the game.

Before I dropped the game from my list, I could barely make it to stage 3, blasting all the way, completely disregarding rank. When everything started to gel together, and I began to comprehend the game, I found that I could make it to the boss run in the Cloud stage, to Black Heart, and even further. The more I learned, the more the game challenged me to improve what I knew, and to experiment with what I theorised, and that is why I will always love Garegga. To me, it's a shmup that pushes the free-thinking abilities of the player, to both memorise and improvise at the same time. To me, all of the Raizing games embody this way of thinking, of playing.

I can understand a lot of the gripes that players have with the game, and with Raizing's output in general. I also agree that the game is the anti-thesis of the "shmupping instinct". Off the top of my head, the only other games besides the Raizing games I can think of that are also the anti-thesis of the "shmupping instinct" are Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga, and yet these two are adored. Silvergun punishes you for blindly blasting your way through the game by crippling your weapons. Ikaruga makes you play to an almost mechanical, virtually non-shooting style in order to maximise a score. Games from both Raizing and Treasure force you to play to a different mentality in order to get the best out of them, and it's that way of thinking that I feel is sadly lacking in both developer and player mentality nowadays.

I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone, or make anyone play a game they don't like. I'm also not surprised that a game or developer that attempts something different, to go against the conventions of the genre, can get a polarised opinion. I'm not trying to start an argument either, just a bit of friendly, heated, opinionated discussion. And to vent for a bit.

If you don't like rank systems, then that's fine. I can't make you, and I don't want to try. I guess, for me, games that are a little different in their approaches appeal to me.

[BulletMagnet]

Silvergun punishes you for blindly blasting your way through the game by crippling your weapons. Ikaruga makes you play to an almost mechanical, virtually non-shooting style in order to maximise a score.

I readily acknowledge that about both of those games, and to some extent criticize both for it, so I'm not directing my ire completely at Raizing here (and don't even get me started on Psikyo). The reason I'm a bit more forgiving of Silvergun in particular is that 1) It offers other, though generally less lucrative, ways of getting bonus points besides chaining, and 2) Offers Saturn mode for both beginners to not have to worry as much about weapon strength, and for advanced players to try a longer challenge. Ikaruga, on the other hand, doesn't offer much in terms of alternatives to chaining to enhance the scoring system, and I consider that a major weakness on its part. In similar fashion, many rank systems are a similar "my way or the highway" deal, a near-requirement to utilize replay videos to get much of an idea on how the game works...I remember a brief discussion sometime back when someone suggested that shmup developers include an option to enable or disable rank (or adjust how extreme it is) in games that use it, and I think that would be a great way to ease newer players into it and make rank-based games more accessible. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone's tried it yet.

I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone, or make anyone play a game they don't like...I'm not trying to start an argument either, just a bit of friendly, heated, opinionated discussion. And to vent for a bit.

No way anyone can argue with that: again, more power to you, I appreciate those sentiments quite a bit.

[raiden]

since the game itself gives no indication whatsoever of how the system, which the player MUST know in order to succeed at it, is set up.

I don´t know what degree of success you are talking about, but it is not necessary to know anything about Battle Garegga´s rank system to 1cc it. To get a world record, yes, but in that respect other score shmups are no different: you won´t ever become arcadia #1 just by reading the instructions on the cab.

Then, as if that weren't enough, once one knows (or can make a guess at) what affects rank in a particular game, he has to figure out the best exact spots in-game to exploit it by dying, missing medals, etc., in order to "pace" himself to get to the end.

again, I think you are taking things way too complicated. To get to the end, it is completely sufficient to play to the best of your ability, all this search for best places is just to optimize the score. Take bomb strategy, for example: when playing a game for the first time, you might just panic bomb in a tight spot. Playing the game for some time, you will learn to get out of more and more of these tight spots, so the bombs will last longer. That´s just natural and doesn´t involve a theoretical analysis of the game.

On top of this, I hear some argue that rank is a good thing because it "makes the game act lighter on beginners": this really glazes my doughnuts, since most shmuppers new to such a game will play it as they play most others, staying alive, shooting stuff down, and collecting items as much as possible. As such, before long the game will beat the living daylights out of them, and if the player can't figure out how to "purposely suck" and calm the rank system down it'll happen again and again to him, every time he plays. The "rank is good for the n00bs" argument is pure baloney as far as I'm concerned; only experts who know the game inside and out are truly able to make it work in their favor.

A newbie will die often, so if the game lowers rank each time you die, it helps newbies. It´s only as you get better that you start to survive longer, but at that point you´re not a newbie any longer, so the game will slowly shift from helping to punishing you, as a means to lengthen the learning curve.
Of course, if you are too proud to bomb, for example, the game will judge your playing style as that of an expert and treat you accordingly. If you want to last longer in a game, it might be wise to give up all those advanced scoring methods you learned somewhere and just play simple.

[BulletMagnet]

I don´t know what degree of success you are talking about, but it is not necessary to know anything about Battle Garegga´s rank system to 1cc it.

That's the first time I've ever heard that said, truth be told...most every other summation of Garegga that I've heard has more or less stated that if you don't control the rank it'll overwhelm you before you get too far in.

To get to the end, it is completely sufficient to play to the best of your ability, all this search for best places is just to optimize the score.

You'll have to explain to me how this works: as far as I remember, the only "consistent" way to score better in Garegga, aside from shooting down stuff and a couple of one-shot secret spots, is by medaling: how does dying at certain spots help with any of those?

A newbie will die often, so if the game lowers rank each time you die, it helps newbies...Of course, if you are too proud to bomb, for example, the game will judge your playing style as that of an expert and treat you accordingly.

Well yeah, but you only get three lives...how "often" can you die at random for the rank to really be brought into check, unless you credit feed? According to what I've heard, the only things which lower rank in Garegga are dying and missing medals. I've never heard of bombing being equated with the rank in that game (though it might apply in others); as far as I know the game increases in rank based on the number of bullets you shoot, which is why you want to avoid powering up, since more and larger bullets increase the rank faster.

If I'm off base in my thinking, I'm all ears for corrections.

[raiden]

That's the first time I've ever heard that said, truth be told...most every other summation of Garegga that I've heard has more or less stated that if you don't control the rank it'll overwhelm you before you get too far in.

Five years ago I knew nothing about Garegga´s rank and reached stage 6 consistently, without a problem.

You'll have to explain to me how this works: as far as I remember, the only "consistent" way to score better in Garegga, aside from shooting down stuff and a couple of one-shot secret spots, is by medaling: how does dying at certain spots help with any of those?

Dying gives you half a bomb, an invulnerability period and resets your position to the bottom of the screen. Using the bomb gives you even more invulnerability, and it destroys enemies without shooting, so it helps with rank, too, while it lets you collect medals without worrying about bullets. Also, there are several places where medals are hidden in the ground, to be uncovered by bombs. If you want to score, you bomb there, if you want to survive, you keep your bombs for the tight spots.

Well yeah, but you only get three lives...how "often" can you die at random for the rank to really be brought into check, unless you credit feed?

Default settings give you a bonus life per 1 million points. Without caring for medals or anything, you will easily get 2-3 bonus lives during your way through the game.

Besides, a newbie isn´t supposed to get through the game. To be newbie-friendly, it is sufficient for the game to go down in difficulty for a short while after dying.

According to what I've heard, the only things which lower rank in Garegga are dying and missing medals. I've never heard of bombing being equated with the rank in that game (though it might apply in others); as far as I know the game increases in rank based on the number of bullets you shoot, which is why you want to avoid powering up, since more and larger bullets increase the rank faster.

And bombing doesn´t. You can kill a lot of small enemies with bomb fragments instead of shots. But I was mainly talking about other games with that bomb remark, and it was only supposed to be an example. Many games have bosses that can be destroyed part per part, but by doing so, the player will increase rank. Simply shooting the core yields less points, but keeps rank low, too.

[TVG]

ive stated more than once that i hate the games that have faster diagonals, the ones wheree your ship moves fasteer diagonally than straight.
those include all treasure games, battle garegga/bakraid, raiden (tho i dont recall if raiden fighters keeps this "feature", havent played it in a long while, feel free to fill me in) and some others.

it may be a minor thing to bitch about, but in a game consistenting of 50% moving (the other half being shooting) having an akward movement abillity bothers me, and i cant forget/get past it, and i cant play properly either, how many times ive died in the supposed to be easy zigzag part of the 3rd stage of ikaruga, which would be so easy with a normal type of movement (im reffering to it as normal only because its the standart for like 99% of the shoot'em-ups) is beyond me.

i dont care about bakraid because ive never gotten into it, the design is cool but ive fallen asleep the first time i played it by the 2nd or 3rd level (but thats just me), however garegga is dope, the pace is good and everyting i like, cept the fucking diagonnals that keeps me away from playing it...

i really, really fail to see the reason why some companies keep it that way, it adds nothing to any game, and whenever they do, i lose, sorta
i know you could exploit it to grab more medals in bakraid, eat more bullets in ikaruga and whatever, but thats another thing.

[CMoon]

I probably shouldn't be responding to this whole rank thing, but I feel like it is so misunderstood...

As far as Garegga, yes, case in point, you can play the game with total ignorance of rank and still do just fine. Really, the complaint about hard to see bullets is seemingly more legitimate.

OK, so on to rank. Rank can be both a way of raping your wallet (kind of a neccesary thing in the arcade) and of adding significant depth to the game. It can be more than just 'if you survive too long, the game will get outlandishly hard). ESPgaluda and Psyvariar are great examples of games that base rank on how much you abuse the scoring system. If you just blast your way through those games with total ignorance, they will be pretty nice to you. That means that as you feel more confident, you can push your ability farther and have the game respond. This is what gives so many shmups an extra layer of depth. It isn't just to go easy on newbies, or to provide the extra challenge to experts. It is to add game play depth. A great example is in Mars Matrix where everything you do changes the enemy layout and scoring possibilities.

All of those things are rank, and they are as endemic to shooting as bosses and power ups. That Garrega seems to sport some outrageous examples of rank is no less an extreme that Batsugun's extreme ideas of power-ups, or G-Darius's ideas regarding how far bosses could be taken.

Regardless, I doubt without the videos anyone would ever be mentioning the counter-intuitive rank in Garegga. This is a case where it might be best if we didn't have replay videos.

[sffan]

ive stated more than once that i hate the games that have faster diagonals, the ones wheree your ship moves fasteer diagonally than straight.

I just noticed this in Viper Phase 2 yesterday. It seems like when you move at a 45 degree angle, your X and Y components of speed remain the same as when you're moving in the X or Y direction, so that your speed in the diagonal directions becomes 1.4142 times faster than it is in the left-right and up-down directions.

It seems like cheap programming, or a lazy oversight.

[Icarus]

I was at work this afternoon, and I thought a bit about this little discussion we have going on. The more I thought about it, the more I believe that Raizing (yes, I'll use them as my example again) created these rank systems in their games to make players focus on a different aspect of the game they're playing. Listen to my way of thinking for a minute:

All of Raizing's games have a rank control system that is tied to the difficulty of the game. In order for a player to progress in a somewhat safe manner, with a decent score, the player must learn to manipulate this system. However, in each individual game, the rank system is also tied to either a weapon system, a scoring system, or both.

In Garegga, for example, the rank system is tied to almost everything you do and collect in the game. To control this system, you have to learn to curb your shmuppery impulses vis-a-vis holding down or repeatedly tapping the fire button, picking up everything you see, and hoarding lives. In order to drop the rank down a peg or two, you have to expend these lives the game seems to dish out, instead of keeping them, but to get these lives, you have to learn how and where to score the big points. So in this case, the rank system is forcing you to learn how to tackle the bosses and stages the right way in order to maximise pointgain.

(NOTE: It's a HUGE misconception that players have to learn where and how to suicide in Garegga to knock the rank down. If anything, the only thing you need to memorise is where to score points from and how. The game is freeform enough to give players discretion with regards to suicide locations)

In Bakraid, the rank system is tied to the amount of lives you have stocked, and as such, is much easier to manipulate. However, given the game's inherent multiplier-based scoring system, an intermediate player will find themselves showered with Extends on a regular basis, almost like the game WANTS you to purposely increase rank to a high level. In order to decrease rank, you suicide to drop the spare lives counter, which gives the added bonus/curse of prolonging your current multiplier. So in Bakraid's case, learning to manipulate the rank system means you're learning to manipulate the scoring system as well, and vice versa.

With Soukyugurentai, the rank system is tied to your ship's power level, and enemy destruction percentages. In order to keep your rank down, you're forced to ignore powerups, and to aim for a shade less than 100% on each stage. What this rank system is actually making you learn is how to effectively use your secondary weapon - the targeting web - in order to survive, and get high lock-on multipliers, as well as how to play the stages so you get the highest score possible from a shade less than 100% destruction. So again, he rank system here is foring a player to learn and master the primary means to achieve score, the web weapon.

Brave Blade's rank system, I believe, is tied to the player's power level as well. In Brave Blade, however, you have the ability to decrease your ship's power level by Guard Breaking - by depleting your mech form's current shield bar. When you're Guard Broken, your ship drops a power level, and takes time to recharge to a safe level. This forces the player to learn to navigate the stages and bosses with both the one-hit-dead aircraft form and both fully charged and shield depleted mech forms in order to survive and score high. The medal system is also tied to the ship's two changeable forms - you get twice as many medals from enemies in mech form than you do in aircraft form - so again, to score high, you have to learn to play in both forms.

Obviously, you can play Shippu Mahou as a plain and simple shooter, which is pretty fun in itself, and quite easy. However, in order to get to the lofty heights of First Place in every race, you have to play the no-shooting game. Simply put, to get first, you're gonna have to learn to RACE the stages, which pretty much makes the stages a damn sight harder since you're not actually destroying anything. So how do you control difficulty here? Well, IMO, learn to race some sections, and shoot through others. Where and how is up to the player

...

I think I've kind of tailed off here, but hopefully I've presented some kind of theory on why rank systems in these games are made they way they are. It's not about controlling the difficulty in my opinion, but more about making a player focus on and learn to master a key aspect of the game they're playing.

Comments and corrections welcome.

[it290]

I agree with your conclusions in essense, but the point not addressed is that the idea of suiciding itself could be considered to be antithetical to the core essence of shmup gameplay - that is, shooting things and dodging bullets. True, it does add a layer of depth to the game, and of course a dynamic difficulty system makes sense for an arcade game, but I think it's better if rank has a direct correlation to scoring potential. It might make the game seem more punishing, but it also keeps the gameplay more 'pure' in my opinion.

[Icarus]

... but the point not addressed is that the idea of suiciding itself could be considered to be antithetical to the core essence of shmup gameplay - that is, shooting things and dodging bullets...

True, Garegga's rank system is against the core elements of shmupping - survival, shooting and dodging - however, like I stated/theorised, I believe that this is only to force the player to focus on something that IS core to shmupping - scoring big, big points. To learn to control rank, you must learn to score big pointage.

...but I think it's better if rank has a direct correlation to scoring potential...

It does - the more you score, the lower you can keep the difficulty. In this sense, Garegga is the direct opposite of something like for example, Dodonpachi Daioujou, where the more you score, the more Hypers you earn, the more Hypers you use, the higher the dificulty goes, but the more you can score.

...but it also keeps the gameplay more 'pure' in my opinion...

There are enough "pure" shmups out there already, absolutely tons. For this reason alone, I'll always adore Garegga, enjoy Psyvariar, love Shikigami et al, for the express reason that they're "impure"

I understand what you say in your post though. I do tend to wonder if I'd enjoy Raizing's shmups if rank systems weren't built into them...

[Shatterhand]

I never got this "suicide" thing that people keep talking about on Garegga (Never watched any replay either)

Why the hell would someone SUICIDE? If they just keep on playing the game, and eventually dying as the game is at extreme difficult - thus lowering the rank, WHY THE HELL would you CHOOSE to die?

[it290]

it290 wrote:
...but I think it's better if rank has a direct correlation to scoring potential...

It does - the more you score, the lower you can keep the difficulty. In this sense, Garegga is the direct opposite of something like for example, Dodonpachi Daioujou, where the more you score, the more Hypers you earn, the more Hypers you use, the higher the dificulty goes, but the more you can score.

Well, by 'direct correlation' I meant scoring potential should increase with difficulty, whereas Garegga is more (tho not totally) what I would consider 'inverse correlation'. Having the game become easier as you score more points (although I'm aware Garegga doesn't tie these elements toegether directly) is like a Wookie on Endor, man.

[Icarus]

Having the game become easier as you score more points (although I'm aware Garegga doesn't tie these elements toegether directly) is like a Wookie on Endor, man.

I'm not quite certain what you mean with this statement. Wouldn't the ability to surpress a game's difficulty be incentive enough to improve one's score? Through an easier rank level means progression, through progression means a better chance of an even higher score?

I definitely agree with the sentiment that Garegga (and the like) are the total opposite of what would be termed "shmupping convention", however I agree with that sentiment for a different reason. In Garegga's case, you're made to not view lives as something to keep to progress - the more I hoard, the longer I can last - but as another tool to expend to aid progression. In this sense, the Extends you are given aren't meant to be kept, but to be used like any other expendable weapon to counteract the game and prolong potential survival. You're pushed not to think about picking up everything in sight, but to be selective both about what you DO pick up, and what you use.

Not many games I've encountered since Garegga's release eight years ago have had the audacity to attempt to defy "shmupping convention" in this manner. Very few games, try to force a player to change their way of thinking within a game, and that is why I see Garegga as the first and last breath of fresh air in an otherwise continually stagnating genre. For this reason alone, I'm hoping that Ibara takes more than just graphical design from Raizing, and takes a bit of gameplay ingenuity as well. If it does, then maybe it'll turn shmup gameplay design on it's head once again, just like Garegga did all those years ago.

OffT: And as far as I can remember, wasn't there a Wookkie on Endor anyway? Sure, he was on a business trip with his friends there, but there was one on there anyway (Or did you mean a Wookkie on Hoth? Ahh, whatever )

[CMoon]

The problem I have with all the 'I hate garrega because you must suicide' philosophy is that you don't have to suicide to play it. You don't even have to control rank to play it; and of course, as Icarus said, the game as free form enough to let you find your own strategy (I just avoid power ups until level three, then go crazy!). It is like some people are just offended by the idea of those videos and someone purposely suiciding.

The truth is, there are lots of shmups that pretty much restrict you to nearly anal gameplay strategies...RSG? Ikaruga? What about the super-tight chaining in some Cave games? Hell, what about the extremely memorization based horizontals (R-Type, etc...)

The issue I have with this whole rank business is at least with Garegga, you can ignore it if you want to. I suppose if you are planning on 1cc'ing it (holy shit!), you might eventually have to get some handle of the rank system, but even doing this you might still find ways to ignore it (or as Rando says, rise to the level of the challenge).

In short, you do not have to suicide. Raizing doesn't say you must suicide. Some players have found that they can abuse the game mechanics by suiciding. Like in Border Down where you can make the game take pitty on you by dying (this is true in many games.) So, do people hate Tekken 5 because you can control rank by suiciding??? (this is actually true.)

I think if anything is going against the nature of shmupping, it is how we've forgotten what shmupping is about--namely going to the arcade and enjoying a game; not watching (and trying to imitate) super high skill videos of things like the all-sword run through of RSG or something.

I will say this again, rank has been indemic to shmups for a very long time (well before raizing), and actually to video games for a very long time. I really believe that if the Saturn port of Garrega did not contain the video with the player suiciding, this discussion would rarely if ever occur.

[BulletMagnet]

There's a lot of nice discussion going on here...I almost feel as if I oughta archive some of it someplace, if only to prove that rational, peaceful discussions from both sides about rank can occur, heh heh.

A couple of points confuse me though...some players seem to say that you MUST learn rank to be able to progress in certain games, while others say it's all but optional...at the same time, some regard 1CC-ing Garegga as an impressive feat, while others say they could get a long way into it before they even knew how the thing worked. I guess, as with anything else, it's largely a matter of personal perception.

Having the game become easier as you score more points is like a Wookie on Endor, man.

I'm half tempted to steal that one for a future sig. But I do kind of agree with that, though perhaps only because I've been "conditioned" to do it...it might've been one of Rando's journal entries which noted that a lot of modern shooters subscribe to the notion of "if you play for survival it's really easy, if you play for score it's evilly hard" mentality, I guess that's just sort of what I expect to see. Of course, as was noted, in Garegga's case the motivation is simply to live longer to score more points, but I've also heard it said that the key to high scoring in Garegga is to kick the rank up quickly and then suicide or whatnot in key places to soothe it back down...maybe either way works to some extent. On the same note...

If you just blast your way through those games with total ignorance, they will be pretty nice to you.

Perhaps that's why a lot of ire is aimed at Garegga and its ilk in particular: in the case of Psyvariar and a few other such games mentioned, the game simply gets harder as you get better at it purely in terms of scoring, making it tougher to keep up your high-flying antics as you seek higher and higher scores. In Garegga's case it's not a matter of being good at scoring at all, but simply the fact that you're shooting a lot that will get you punished. As in the case of Souky, in which simply powering up your weapon will get you mauled. Perhaps it's the difference between being blasted at for doing "fancy" shmup things (i.e. working the scoring system for all it's worth) versus doing "regular" shmup things (shooting, powering up, staying alive) that sets the Raizing lot apart from more modern rank efforts.

I understand what you say in your post though. I do tend to wonder if I'd enjoy Raizing's shmups if rank systems weren't built into them...

Again I might hold out the hope that some future shmup developer or other includes "optional rank" so as to cater to everyone's tastes, and make the game more accessible...the more I think about it, the odder it seems that no one's ever really done this, since either way you're alienating part of your target audience, within a niche genre as it is.

[zimeon]

[A lot of very wise things]

Very, very good post(s). Interesting read, good points. I believe I finally understand and I stand corrected.

I guess it all comes down to a very typical problem: How complicated is a game supposed to be? Some (I guess most, in general) like a fairly simple system, whereas some specific hardcore fans start enjoying something when the klichés are broken and something new invented. This goes not only for games, but for books, films, any entertainer. Some like a short dip, some find a philosophy in the easy types, whereas some always want to go further.

There is probably no real "shmup instinct" to talk about here. Like Cmoon stated, we're playing to have fun. And after Icarus' description of the rank system in Garegga, I understand more than ever why this can be a very intriguing shmup.

For me personally, it's a bit like: "would you try this MMORPG, it has three hundred races, fifty worlds and seven thousand languages!". Being a standard gamer, I guess I like more easy bites. But I do willingly take back that I said that ranking systems that kill you if you play too good are boring gameplay. If control of the ranking system itself is an integrated part of the gameplay, then it's just another dimension to the gaming experience.

[Acid King]

Off the top of my head, the only other games besides the Raizing games I can think of that are also the anti-thesis of the "shmupping instinct" are Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga, and yet these two are adored.

Adored by some but shat on by plenty exactly for the ways they break convention.

[gameoverDude]

In Giga Wing the "R-Type Charge Shot" delay on using Reflect Force is a minor problem. While with practice you get the hang of it, it still would've been nice to have a 3rd button to use RF instantly. It takes maybe 1- 1.5 seconds for the RF to kick in, and that time can be long enough for you to cop it.

Ikaruga is a good game, but it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea. The combo system here is stricter than DDP's- because your shooting must be Silent Scope accurate if you want the big scores.

Border Down's rank system is what I think is the best- raising the difficulty (risk) results in giving you higher scoring opportunities for doing well. More bullets can mean a possible higher end-level bonus and a greater multiplier. Still, there are times when you may want to suicide- like that Stage 3 Green Border boss trick involving a double Border Down at the boss. Some Japanese players will BD to have another run at some more enemies.

[Icarus]

In Giga Wing the "R-Type Charge Shot" delay on using Reflect Force is a minor problem. While with practice you get the hang of it, it still would've been nice to have a 3rd button to use RF instantly. It takes maybe 1- 1.5 seconds for the RF to kick in, and that time can be long enough for you to cop it.

I think the Reflect Force in the Gigawing games is meant to have the delay as part of it's gameplay aspect. You aren't meant to treat the RF as a shield, but as a weapon, in that you have to "attack" large bullet clusters pre-emptively in order to create the medal showers. If you use the RF as a last-moment shield, then you're going to see the lives counter decrease very, very quickly.

[SheSaidDutch]

Automatic shooting- IMO It just feels like cheating,even though If I was in manual and tapped the fire button, I'd get the same rate of fire.


too many weapons on screen, that you end up with a weapon you didn't want, thus not only losing your weapon of choice but all the power=up for It aswell.

[gameoverDude]

In Giga Wing the "R-Type Charge Shot" delay on using Reflect Force is a minor problem. While with practice you get the hang of it, it still would've been nice to have a 3rd button to use RF instantly. It takes maybe 1- 1.5 seconds for the RF to kick in, and that time can be long enough for you to cop it.

I think the Reflect Force in the Gigawing games is meant to have the delay as part of it's gameplay aspect. You aren't meant to treat the RF as a shield, but as a weapon, in that you have to "attack" large bullet clusters pre-emptively in order to create the medal showers. If you use the RF as a last-moment shield, then you're going to see the lives counter decrease very, very quickly.

Looks like Takumi does intend for it to be used sort of like R-Type's Beam Laser, just powered by enemy fire. In some ways GW does seem like a yokovertical R-Type, albeit with 25x the bullets.

One thing that does truly suck is the dirty "Independence Day" laser attack without charge time (on the final boss' medallions). Next time I see those bastards, it's Force Bomb time. I don't think Giga Wing's true final boss is intended to be cleared with no bombs, though I did take down the stage 6 boss WITHOUT a bomb.

On the first boss I tend to use a Border Down approach- using up as much of the time as possible, trying to take it down at the last second. In the meantime I milk for medals. I watched a MARP of the game that has the player not being concerned about totaling the bosses but instead keeping them around to leech off of until the time runs out.

[Damocles]

One word: Debris. I don't play shmups for eye candy, so don't bother. A simple 'blosion that doesn't hide/mimic bullets is good enough for me.