13th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

[Despatche]

Because I'm not narrowing it. Some games I enjoy the achievements, some games I don't. Some games I enjoy even though they don't have achievements, but have other things of interest. It depends on the fine elements of the mechanics, what the game has to offer, how it plays, and a billion other elements of pure subjective preference.

People have simply demanded that this be, and have made games to match. That's not entirely a bad thing; I don't really oppose games like this. But people assign too much importance to these games, and this comes at the expense of other games. At some point these "experiences" stop being "games", and become something that needs to be treated separately and that needs completely separate terms.

This discussion needs to end here because the next step is talking about what a game is. I really don't feel like being a part of that discussion again. Not in a place like this. But it was nice while it lasted, and it was much better than whatever this topic was supposed to be. Thank you.

[d0s]

But people assign too much importance to these games,

you have the 'tism

[cave hermit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ

[Squire Grooktook]

Well, you're welcome. And with that, I must go as well (school soon).

[BIL]

Good show you two

[Bananamatic]

[Xyga]

Good show you two

definitely, reminded me of those Clarcice / Hannibal conversations

[Despatche]

It never gets old how it's always everyone outside these arguments that shits up the thread, I see it all the time here. It's why I usually stay the hell out of threads. You people don't even hate me; you use me as a source of entertainment and as a stepping stone for your egos.

Thanks, BIL. You really are one of the best people on this forum, you know that? You know how to handle everything, or you make it seem like you do. That's the key to success in a shithole like this.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think we can all agree that BIL-senpai is the best <3

[gimebe]

Eschatos does have some shitty parts, such as purple dildos, the boss/midboss bullet patterns being too easy and static aside from the final boss, the S4 boss milk, time bonuses having a very low impact on score, and the boring reset hell on Stage 2 and Stage 3 because of chaindrops on RNG blue missiles.

The straight/wide/shield weapon system is great, it's very fun to hunt down enemies combined with the chaining system and enemy placement RNG. While chaining is generally simple in this game, the RNG can and will throw curveballs, which is where quick shield usage both defensively and aggressively can make the difference between surviving with the chain intact and throwing the run.

I like the soundtrack and graphics very much, and consider it one of the best-looking shmups out there. If Eschatos had the graphics and 15-second loop soundtrack of Judgment Silversword and needed to stand out purely on its gameplay, would it be top 25-worthy? Probably not - it might snatch a lower-end spot on Honorable Mentions at best. Graphics and sound matter enormously for enjoyment, though, and Eschatos certainly delivers on that end.

Part of its popularity in the west could be that it has very accessible difficulty levels in Easy and Normal that still have intact scoring mechanics and retain all the fun of the game, despite the lower intensity.

[Despatche]

Any game has such a list of problems if you study it hard enough. I think Eschatos turns out better than Triangle Service or even Siter Skain and Edelweiss games.

Eschatos is indeed a pretty great example of a game where the entire package adds up. Its flair is put to good use in a great game.

[Xyga]

It never gets old how it's always everyone outside these arguments that shits up the thread, I see it all the time here. It's why I usually stay the hell out of threads. You people don't even hate me; you use me as a source of entertainment and as a stepping stone for your egos.

This confirms my diagnosis of your mental health. You completely thrashed that thread I made some time ago, yet you are so insane you even erased that from your memories and charge others for things ou yourself do.

[Despatche]

Yes, "some time ago". I pop in to say my piece once a month at best. That is what I said, that is what I meant, and this is all I have to say.

[Xyga]

You're just a bat shit thread destroyer.

[Shepardus]

I like Eschatos but not enough to call it one of my favorites. I really like its pacing and the creative enemy movements, but wasn't as thrilled by the bullet patterns and always felt that the shield was a pain to use. I've got mixed feelings on the scoring system, one the one hand it's simple and easy to tell where your points are coming from and how you can improve, but on the other hand some parts are really obnoxiously frustrating thanks to the need to kill every enemy, like the blue missiles gimebe mentioned and the stage 3 pinecones. Wonderwitches are also needlessly obnoxious - I don't mind having to uncover them in randomized locations, but their tendency to run away is just silly and unfun in my opinion. The graphics neither turn me off nor particularly appeal to me, but it's got great presentation. And the soundtrack is phenomenal, my favorite part of the game really.

[Despatche]

I think we can all agree that stage 3 is really annoying.

[donluca]

hard to feel excitement trying to achieve something you've already done dozens of times
it's like running a race knowing beforehand that your time can at best be your best with not a millisecond of improvement

Just wanted to say that I don't agree completely with this statement.

For me, I'm the kind of guy who enjoys finishing a game over and over again.
Playing for score should be something which comes out naturally: when you're confident in your skills and ability to 1CC a game then, if you're still interested in the game, you can look to the next challenge: 1CCing the game trying to get each time a better score.
Of course you're not shooting for the stars, just putting a goal there for yourself: each time you play, you aim at improving your score.

That's enough reason for me to keep playing (and finishing) the same game over and over again.

YMMV, of course.

[Strikers1945guy]

Holy shit this thread.

I don't get it. People got mad at me for hating on milestone, whom I do think make turds for games, but that's just my opinion. I completely understand why others love the games and they still need to be respected. I always say that after I give my opinion, no one is ever wrong for enjoying something I don't or seeing qualities I can't .

People think the games I love are shit (pink sweets for example). Live and let live.

Someone having enjoyment or entertainment is completely subjective and Despatche is just nuts. I'm an atheist, I don't go to churches and scream at the feillow church goers about how shit the bible is. People are different. Hard to deal with I guess.

I will say I wish the top 25 was different but so does everyone. I wish it was -my- top 25 why doesn't everyone agree with me

[copy-paster]

I thought he was a Pretas clone?

[d0s]

People got mad at me for hating on milestone,

I think it was more (in my case anyway) that you bring up that hate over and over, like you're doing again

Agreed with the other shit you said tho

[Strikers1945guy]

People got mad at me for hating on milestone,

I think it was more (in my case anyway) that you bring up that hate over and over, like you're doing again

Agreed with the other shit you said tho

I only brought it up for example i swear

Seriously I hate me some milestone and I'll talk about it, but to condemn someone for liking them? Thats a load of crap cmon everyone loves different things !!

Think of how boring it would be if we all like the same thing.

[Shepardus]

Think of how boring it would be if we all like the same thing.

Nifty's job would be a lot easier, he would only need one person to respond.

[Nifty]

Better yet I could just make it myself

Semi-obscure 90's shooters for daaayyys

[Perikles]

The game [Musha] actually has working scoring and a great aesthetic, and there is still no game here.

You'll be delighted to hear that Musha's scoring is actually broken. If you sit in the lower left or lower right corner right at the beginning of the game after acquiring your first little helpers you'll be able to milk the projectiles from the huge tank forever, you can even walk away from the TV if you weight down the shot button.

It seems like every single Compile game has at least one spot somewhere that'll allow you to gather as many points as you want. Gunhed has the eyeball turrets, Super Aleste that one checkpoint in the final stage, Zanac the infinite warp, Gun-Nac at least one boss with milkable projectiles, Seirei Senshi Spriggan the endless supply of power-ups... Dennin Aleste is great, though. I suppose you could milk the penultimate boss there, but I wouldn't dare to do that for he's extremely dangerous as is.

[Stevens]

For me, I'm the kind of guy who enjoys finishing a game over and over again.
Playing for score should be something which comes out naturally: when you're confident in your skills and ability to 1CC a game then, if you're still interested in the game, you can look to the next challenge: 1CCing the game trying to get each time a better score.

YMMV, of course.

Agreed. I put my first credit into Under Defeat in January of 2014. It is now over two years and 300+ hours later (310 I think..) and I am still improving and getting enjoyment from it.

I didn't sit down to play it for the first time and say "This is going to be my game, and I'm going to clear it, and do this and this and this". It happened, as you said, naturally.

First came the stage clears, and then the stage no misses, and then finally the 1 CC. And then I took a break for a bit and played other things, but no matter what I played in between I always found my way back to it in time with some new (attainable) goal in mind. And after reaching those goals I would go play other games and then find my way back. Again.

Haven't found another shooter I like as much, but play time wise Mars Matrix is most likely my #2.

[d0s]

The game [Musha] actually has working scoring and a great aesthetic, and there is still no game here.

You'll be delighted to hear that Musha's scoring is actually broken. If you sit in the lower left or lower right corner right at the beginning of the game after acquiring your first little helpers you'll be able to milk the projectiles from the huge tank forever, you can even walk away from the TV if you weight down the shot button.

It seems like every single Compile game has at least one spot somewhere that'll allow you to gather as many points as you want. Gunhed has the eyeball turrets, Super Aleste that one checkpoint in the final stage, Zanac the infinite warp, Gun-Nac at least one boss with milkable projectiles, Seirei Senshi Spriggan the endless supply of power-ups... Dennin Aleste is great, though. I suppose you could milk the penultimate boss there, but I wouldn't dare to do that for he's extremely dangerous as is.

Honestly none of this stuff makes these games bad to me. They're console games that weren't really designed for the hyper focus on scoring that arcade shooters are, where extends are worth real world money. I'll bet a lot of this shit is intentional just to make the target audience of 10 year old japanese kids feel like badasses, nobody making these games thought people would seriously care if you could get a billion points by holding a button for four hours. Compile games and the closely related caravan games of the era by Hudson/Kaneko/etc are just stupid flashy toys and I kinda love that about them, but I play video games to feel like a kid for a little while and I get people who take games more seriously may be kinda repulsed by that type of "basic" entertainment.

[Kollision]

Broken games make me sad.
The day I found out Zero Wing MD was broken part of me died a little.

[Perikles]

Oh, I wasn't trying to insinuate Compile games were bad because of broken scoring systems, I was merely musing about the fact that there's usually a rather odd way to exploit them. It's not much of an exaggeration to state that about half of the 16-bit shooters have broken scoring systems, including a lot of my personal favourites (Undeadline, Thunder Force IV, Crying, R-Type III, Darius Force, Violent Soldier etc.). I will say, however, that I'm generally not a huge Compile fan, I'd rather play easy shooters where movement on the screen is in fact imperative and not optional (examples: Elemental Master, Battle Mania Daiginjou, Flying Hero, Override, Rayxanber III). I mentioned Dennin Aleste because I personally feel like it's rectifying its length by an unusual high challenge and a very compelling weapon system. A game doesn't feel so bloated if you're constantly engaged in the action. That's not to say I outright despise other Compile games, I find e.g. Sylphia to be uniquely charming by dint of its mythological topos, but I can think of many, many 16-bit shooters I prefer (including the perky Compile epigone Kidou Soukou Dion).

[TransatlanticFoe]

What I like about Eschatos being in this list is it's a title that got a lot of recent discussion on this forum, and a wider release to boot. Proof that the community can come together and enjoy something they hadn't given much thought to previously! It's not personally one of my favourites, the aesthetic is quite plain and the viewpoint changes can be jarring. But it's still a nice game and it's equally nice to see something fresh in the top 25 list.

[EmperorIng]

Better yet I could just make it myself

Semi-obscure 90's shooters for daaayyys

You were just waiting for Thunder Dragon 2, weren't you.