Japanese gaming is dead

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Its a shame that developers wont or cant give their designers and writers total freedom to do what they want. I remember reading that Lucas Arts in the early days did such a thing which helped bring about all those great point and clickers like monkey island , grim fandango plus their quirky games like Night Shift.

[Drum]

dcharlie: Sega announced it shipped 1.1 mil back in Febuary, which is staggering for a weirdy game without a brand to back it up in the current cultural climate, but for its budget (I'm guessing 8 mil? It had a custom engine, right?) the sales it got meant it wouldn't have done much better than break even, and it got cheap super fast so 1.1m is probably also the final shipment number.
I wasn't talking about quality at all, though I guess retailers might be sad that it was so awesome because that means they'll have a tougher time pulling their used game scam.
We both know it won't get a sequel, or even seriously be considered for one, which is basically this shitty industry's way of saying it wasn't a successful investment. Maybe they could do a Pachislot machine or something.

Meanwhile, Okamiden did really well on DS in Japan (well, compared to the first one). Clover's rotten, violated corpse: 1 Kamiya: 0.

[dcharlie]

and Okamiden is kind of ... well.. .meh :/

DS userbase is a massive boost though i guess.

[Drum]

From PS2? Ehhhhhhhh, not as it relates to game sales.

[linko9]

Yeah, I don't have high hopes for Okamiden sales, though it looks great. Unfortunately, I bet this will be the last game in the "series." I'd love to have seen an HD sequel.

[Blade]

For those of you complaining about "controlling a movie" (e.g. FFXIII, Batman: AA, Assassin's Creed, MGS4)...here's a litmus test:

Go play Don Bluth's Dragon's Lair on PSN...if that's not a throwback to "controlling a movie" where you hear dialogue and such, but still control it, I don't know what is.

Once you've played it, ask yourself a few things:

1. Was it a bad experience? Was it REALLY that boring?
2. Did you feel you weren't in control? Was the lack of control relaxing or fun or distracting or stressful?
3. Was the level of interactivity to your liking? Did they do what you wanted them to do?

Now...compare this game to current gen games that give you practically FULL control over a lot of aspects of characters....

While it's no Japanese game...it is something to think about.

[Despatche]

the slowdown issue in NA DS

Did CAVE really do this, or was it Aksys?

all the loli and that Advert on you tube which made the game look more like a visual novel then a shmup

Uh, I'm pretty sure that the fanbase is looking for that sort of thing.

Not a fan of the genre in general, and never have been. Stuff like TNZS, SMB3, Bill & Ted, and the Donkey Kong game on the GB (the name escapes me) I enjoy. Stuff like Dizzy, Metroid, Castlevania I do not

Huh? The original Castlevanias were anything but "nonlinear". Even Metroid and new Castlevania games are still fairly linear.

That game is just called "Donkey Kong", or more accurately "Game Boy Donkey Kong". A sequel of sorts can be found in Mario vs. Donkey Kong (the first, anyway).

It seems you have to hit bullseye everytime. It also seems like creativity has to be subsidized by the big boys that make money on hits such as Halo and GTA. Its probably this movement which has happened in the past 4 years or so that has brought us to waggle mania, wii fit and such.

I thought "waggle mania" was introduced to counter all this. (And it's doing well at it, if so.)

[neorichieb1971]

Waggle has nothing to do with creativity. Making a new line and branching off a new line are two seperate things.

[Skykid]

the slowdown issue in NA DS

Did CAVE really do this, or was it Aksys?

Cave did it, the buffoons.

and Okamiden is kind of ... well.. .meh :/

Aw, say it ain't so. I was looking forward to that one.

[Zeron]

Cave did it, the buffoons.

God knows what CAVE has planned for Death Smiles PAL.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Cave did it, the buffoons.

God knows what CAVE has planned for Death Smiles PAL.

Im worried what we are gonna get. im thinking its gonna be a toss up between a fantastic port of the arcade original (which is one of the perks of PAL in that when we get games 6-18 months later then elsewhere all the creases have been ironed out) Or we will get something that makes mobile gun force seem arcade perfect.

If I think about it its prolly just me been a drama queen as RSG seems to know wtf its doing (the published new zealand story after all). Its Cave who Im worried about, I just hope they dont come up with anymore crack pot ideas and just give us a simple port of the JPN original, preferably in 4:3 fullscreen.

I wonder what new artwork will be used for the PAL case. It seems that Cave is doing a new one. Considering the characters in the PAL version have all suddenly grown up into 18yo adults, my guess would be artwork that reinforces that. If thats the case I do hope they stop at the box artwork and dont start making changes in-game aswell.

[Skyknight]

Heading FAR back to the original precept (yes, I read, or at least skimmed, everything from before), I think a big part of the problem about necrotic gaming segments (not every genre can be waning all at once) is that whole problem about needing to bullseye everything. The big companies seem to be under the impression that to deserve their stature, everything they produce needs to be similarly big-impact. Big-impact in terms of popularity, anyway. And yet, we keep finding disappointments and/or unappealing elements in mainstream works. I wouldn't say the problem is gaming as a whole going mainstream, as companies trying to render each SUBSET of gaming mainstream. Apparently because they can't bear being something less than a household name.

However, look at Atlus. THEY don't seem to have a problem with being primarily niche-work. I actually get the feeling they're not just happy with niche-work; that's what they're happiest with in the first place (they're not expecting to produce things that merit midnight launches; just works that will have something resembling an appreciable audience). Why can't we have more mid-size companies content with niche appeal? Looking on the customer side, one gets the feeling that many of the customers seem unwilling to look beyond mainstream, as though mainstream itself were a genre (...somehow). From a distance, it doesn't look much like the archetypal mainstreamers are looking at themselves with much detail, to see which niche-work they could find enjoyable. Perhaps it's not so much about enjoying themselves per se, as about having the same experiences as everyone else? I'm not sure how you wind up fearful of not experiencing like everyone else, though (and therefore how to disentangle yourself from that malady). But, back to the main point, there must be SOME way to make the very idea of not just companies further appealing to niches, but customers willing to consider and explore niches and arcana, appealing. Never mind that any success you'd care to think of necessarily ultimately started with some past niche-work (how much success was expected for the first Final Fantasy on publication, again? Although, given the first Dragon Quest, I'm not sure how niche-ish we're really talking).

As to the current emphasis on realism, FMV, etc....er, how did this get so important, again? Even among the mainstream, I wonder how many people would really miss FMV, for example, in lieu of game engine-based cutscenes {wishes he knew the proper term for the latter}. I can't fathom what's so wondrous about being wowed, in any case, nor why you'd need FMV for that (or a game). Is just delight and enjoyment insufficient?

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I been listening to an gaming podcast where western folk living in Japan talk about the game industry over there, this episode their topic of discussion is the same as this thread. http://theoutcastpodcast.blogspot.com/2 ... anese.html

They mostly talked about how handhelds have taken over in Japan, but they also mentioned a couple of other intresting reasons one been that adult gamers are very rare due to adults expected to give up their hobbies when they become salarymen. And the average gamer age in Japan is around 14 where as its 35ish in the USA.

If this is the case it makes me wonder about the Japanese Shmup demographic, is it the same as here in the west where most fans are older adults or are most japanese shmuppers in their teen (explains why touhou is so popular) with a few older fans who are young at heart and seen as creepy by society

[neorichieb1971]

I liked Japanese launches of old. The kind that had a Mario game and a jet skiiing game that was actually good. You were forced to buy it since you bought an expensive system. Had Mario 64 been the 250th game on the N64 I don't think it would have been made a big deal of. Waverace and Pilotwings were also very good attempts at demonstrating a machines strengths. The analog stick, camera views etc really set them apart.

These days a new machine just has better graphics and online mode. None of the launch games actually do anything different anymore. I for one would love to play pilotwings in PS3 glorified mode. Games are not made anymore where you feel your on an adventure. Which is a shame because going on an adventure would be 100x better than it was in those days.

Up until Burnout 3 I didn't buy an EA game (3DO exception) but now I find they are my favourite developer with games like Hot Pursuit (Criterion have a lot to do with that) and Dead Space 2.

I still think Microsoft killed the Japanese game as well. It has not been documented but I felt a huge divide in Japan around the time of Segas demise and Microsofts rise. Perhaps a coincidence. Perhaps the games the Japanese devs were making were not the type of games people in the West wanted to play, they just happened to be the best games at the time. Times have changed and the pulling power of yesteryear no longer holds any weight.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Games are not made anymore where you feel your on an adventure. Which is a shame because going on an adventure would be 100x better than it was in those days.

While I'm not sure about the latter (hardware limitations can be just as inspiring as technological prowess; it's not like developers don't want adventuring in their games; rather they don't have what it takes to breath the spirit of adventure into the framework of contemporary mainstream genres and technologies), I'd suggest to look around more carefully in search of adventure. Been playing Sky Odyssey the other day and guess which current game it reminds me of? Burnout Paradise, no less. BP ticks most boxes I like my action adventure games to tick. The world is designed rather than randomly generated (oh, hi, Bethesda), complex and full of stuff to do and discover. Even the lack of plot doesn't bother me as I can make up my own narration. (The world inhabitated by cars, devoid of human beings, is a thing of inspiration.) It looks and sounds good too, and performs twice as good as your average this-gen game. If I wanted a Criterion-style arcade racer, I'd rather stick to earlier Burnouts, but Paradise is more of an action adventure game indeed.
Of course it remains rather violent, which may be not your cup of tea if you're fed up with violence in games... (Sky Odyssey proved that violence-free adventuring can be just as entertaining.)
Perhaps I'm repeating myself, but I don't think Paradise is being praised enough for what it is.

[burgerkingdiamond]

They didn't invent video games, you know. Which shmup had scrolling backgound first? Defender? Aping western stuff isn't exactly the problem. Making shit games is.

Pretty aware of the history, but I think the point is that there's a legacy of fine Japanese gaming that is all but phasing out. Inafune knows it, and we know it.
Japan has always 'aped' western commercial output in most stuff they do, from games to music to anime etc. - but normally they make it their own. You're right about them making shit games, but it's my belief that they're abandoning what they do brilliantly to try to emulate (not ape) western gaming completely, despite the fact the two cultures are completely alien. It'll take them forever to get their heads around how to properly make a game formula appeal totally to a western audience.

Look at fucking Kojima - can you imagine how much better Metal Gear Solid would be if it actually had a comprehensible plot? Unfortunately it makes not a blind bit of sense - it's completely head over heels Japanese, part of the reason why MGS will never be as big as Halo.

Exactly. I loved the original Metal Gear Solid. I played through it several times when I was a kid. But the newest one for PS3 I actually sold after only a few weeks. I NEVER do that. There was no game play and nothing but cut-scene after cut-scene. Which maybe would have been bearable if it at least made sense...
Supposedly that game sold a lot of PS3's, but I'd like to know how many people actually liked that game once they got it home.

[neorichieb1971]

I played MGS4 for 3 hours and sold it. Biggest pile of crap I've ever played. I like MGS1 and 2 though. I didn't like 3. Taking the radar out of 3 was too much for me, I was lost without it.

Kojima is a style nut, someone who likes to make things look COOL! I can only take so much of it before I get really bored. If I were a developer I wouldn't take notes from Hideo Kojima. Well, not recent notes anyway.

I have recently snubbed GT5 as well. I'm not buying it because it goes against everything in gaming I believe in. I hope its a weak seller compared to the rest of them.

That game called JOURNEY looks really new and inviting though, nice art style, new world, new adventure.

[dcharlie]

Up until Burnout 3 I didn't buy an EA game (3DO exception) but now I find they are my favourite developer with games like Hot Pursuit (Criterion have a lot to do with that) and Dead Space 2.

congrats - you started buying Burnout as it started to decline!

I played MGS4 for 3 hours and sold it. Biggest pile of crap I've ever played.

holy crap - it's a watershed moment - we agree on something. Although i finished it... twice. :/ Biggest pile of crap from Act 3. Act 1 and 2 were both good. After that the game just shat itself. The PSP game though is excellent, one of the best games of 2010.

Games are not made anymore where you feel your on an adventure.

once again, i'll say it : you are stuck on Jaded Island and the ships are there to rescue you .... you just don't want to get on board!

[neorichieb1971]

And next months biggest release is recycled garbage.

Next.


It doesn't bother me really. I just buy a game every 12 months instead of every 12 days. Even the game I just bought (hot pursuit) isn't grabbing my attention. Its sitting there like a plum. I like it though.

Burnout 2 is my favourite Burnout. Hot pursuit is its younger sister.

[E. Randy Dupre]

None of the launch games actually do anything different anymore. I for one would love to play pilotwings in PS3 glorified mode.

Are you, in reality, five different people, handing the keyboard between yourselves each time a new sentence is written? It's the only logical explanation for how you keep contradicting yourself like this within the space of two breaths.

[neorichieb1971]

Tackling a 15 year old franchise is different compared to say releasing PS4 with Uncharted 3, releasing Nintendo wii 2 with Zelda and releasing Xbox 360 2 with Halo 5.

Perhaps not iterating myself so clearly, I would like to see older franchises reborn on new hardware.

I could argue that your input to this argument is just to find fault with everyone elses posts instead of constructively adding anything of your own. Why don't you climb down from your perch of wisdom and add something to the argument that people can chew on.

[E. Randy Dupre]

Because others have put the arguments eloquently enough. Currently, all you're doing is repeating the same thing that you've said since the beginning of this thread and all your arguments have been demonstrated be be either wholly inaccurate, nonsense or otherwise based on a complete lack of actual, first-hand exposure to current generation gaming.

In other words, you've got a bit of a cheek to accuse somebody else of adding nothing new to the discussion.

[neorichieb1971]

The reasons for "Japanese gaming is Dead" have been covered and the thread has gone into multiple opinionated sub reasons why its dead. Mine is that in the era when Japan was top, it had great franchises like Resident evil, Pilotwings, MGS, Silent Hill, Ridge Racer, Street Fighter, Tekken and so forth. They led the way technically, hardware wise and put their Japanese stamp on it at the same time.

Now people can't see the technical achievements in many of their games, their story telling is pretty much abysmal in most areas (not all) and they rely on franchises that never needed so many sequels in the first place. I gave an example of one franchise which would really shine on HD hardware, pilotwings.

I will fight my corner for more variety, my idea of variety is putting a game onto the shelves that has been missed for 17 years. 3D was supposed to give creators an unlimited power to create new fantastic worlds and game ideas. Funny then, after 10 years or so of competent 3D that we get the same recycled sequels.

In Japans defense nobody has made a better fighting game than them, nobody has made a better RPG than them. It just seems to me that their older efforts are better than their new ones. Hardware advancement has given them a bigger box to fill, and they filled it with nothing great.

And that sir is why I feel the OP is saying that Japanese gaming is dying.

If all your going to do is vommit and scrutinize over my post then don't bother. Put your own 2 cents on it. I didn't realize looking at things from a different perspective was the same as being wholly inaccurate. I've read a million posts on here that I didn't agree with, but I didn't beat them up over it because its their opinion.

[Kaiser]

Worthwhile wall of text

+1 to everything you said Richie. You put my words out of my mouth on that. You can guys flame me but I find Dragon Age to be far more of a RPG than Final Fantasy XIII is. What the hell happened to old gameplay where stats mattered?

[dunpeal2064]

Worthwhile wall of text

+1 to everything you said Richie. You put my words out of my mouth on that. You can guys flame me but I find Dragon Age to be far more of a RPG than Final Fantasy XIII is. What the hell happened to old gameplay where stats mattered?

I will agree with this, however I could not get into wrpgs, past or present. The only rpg I've enjoyed curent gen so far is Record of Agarest War.... haha just kidding. I thought Boarderlands had a lot of potential, but it was far more linear than I expected.

My gf is playing through Blue Dragon, and it doesn't look too bad. Being a fan of FFIX music, and DBZ, this game sells to me. Very traditional, however, and I'm guessing thats why its $10 now.

[Skykid]

Worthwhile wall of text.

I also agree with this particular standpoint, although I must admit I consider the best of Japanese gaming to lie pre 32bit.

[dunpeal2064]

Worthwhile wall of text.

I also agree with this particular standpoint, although I must admit I consider the best of Japanese gaming to lie pre 32bit.

But... but... What about Segata Sanshiro?

[dcharlie]

What the hell happened to old gameplay where stats mattered?

this is why i've always been more into WRPGs than JRPGs. There's good and crap in each though.

If you are raised on Ultima/Bards Tale/Wasteland it's hard to take movements away from that.

[`Throwdown]

Some may disagree, but for me one of the only modern games (non Nintendo casual style) that had perfect global appeal while retaining it's unique Japanese-ness was Resident Evil 4.
Resi was always western influenced in theme, but quintessentially Japanese in craft and design. Resi 4 really was a trendsetter and a pioneer of a whole new world of adventure gaming, with more cinematic qualities and depth than just about anything in the genre ever since. But it walked the line perfectly, being an exercise in design by Capcom's finest and making few of the concessions made by it's underrated (but certainly more westernised) sequel.

Western companies who turn out quality games in the adventure genre (FPS's really, Halo and GOW) know how to create great, cinematic games, but compared to the intricacy of Resi 4 they're plainly simple affairs.

LOL... did you just hint that RE4 is better than GoW 1 or 2? ...

[dcharlie]

but compared to the intricacy of Resi 4 they're plainly simple affairs.

i love Resi 4 - one of my favourite games of all time but... i think you might have been huffing glue just a little when you got to this part.

Also - Dead Space absolutely ruined RE5 for me. The bar just got pushed up way beyond RE's headspace.