XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Overkill]

99% of xbox 1 titles run in 480p mode in a ntsc xbox with component output. But i don't want the xrgb for that, i want it just for a few emulators to run with scanlines. Xbox 1 have lots of good emulators running in 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i, but without scanlines.

[fAbZ]

yes, because of that im asking to Thomago if in the case of the xrgb mini he will use the xbox 1 with 480i with scart rgb, instead of component cable with 480p.

Could you please rephrase this question? I don't understand.

and a cart-switch ? that's right ? but the "fitting power supply" ?? is for what, the XRGB ?

You will need two of the cables. And since frequently pluggin SCART cables in and out isn't a good idea (and annoying), you will need a SCART switch (+ another, preferably high quality SCART cable from the switch to the XRGB).
As for the power supply: Yes, for the XRGB. The power supply that comes with the XRGB won't work in Europe. Just buy a universal one (switchable power plugs, switchable voltage) that's able to output 5 V / 3 A.

Oh yeah, son great informations, i was scared of buying note the good things ...
Many thanks for tour help. I was thinking of this high end câble after the scart switch :
http://www.gebl.net/en/item/296/scart-p ... line-cable @ amazon
i Will post feedbacks after all in work

[Zombisaurus]

Looking to connect my PS2 to the xrgb mini.

I'm assuming the official Sony D Terminal output would be the best quality I can get, correct? (Same as RGB.. But RGB cables are hard to come by)

I have a US PS2, only own component cables currently.

[Fudoh]

It's certainly the best compromise between ease of use, price and quality. The PS2's component signal is a bit noisy and the Mini isn't good at filtering this out. It's a minor problem with 240p and 480i, but it can get annoying with 480p.

And D-Terminal is the same as component, so you keep your cables and use a component to D-Terminal adapter instead.

[fAbZ]

It's certainly the best compromise between ease of use, price and quality. The PS2's component signal is a bit noisy and the Mini isn't good at filtering this out. It's a minor problem with 240p and 480i, but it can get annoying with 480p.

And D-Terminal is the same as component, so you keep your cables and use a component to D-Terminal adapter instead.

Thomago just say to me that, for the same configuration :

"HOWEVER, if you want perfect picture quality please ditch the Component stuff. I tried it myself with a setup just like yours - the Mini's Component input is just horrible, especially if the Component signal comes from a PS2.
Go for RGB. However to prevent a bunch of annoying picture artifacts from happening you will need specially modded RGB cables just like these (read the thread for further details):

http://www.wolfsoft.de/shop/product_inf ... mized.html

You will need a good SCART switch then as well."

So, D-terminal VS modded RGB ??

[Midnight Milkshake]

First of all, fudoh, thanks for the previous advices!

And reading the latetst posts I understand that:

Wii component 480p ----> Frameister = Good
PS2 componet 480p ----> Frameister = Fail
PS2 RGB 480i ----> Frameister = Good
Xbox ---->Frameister = Don't know, maybe like PS2

Thought that if the Frameister was great with Wii's awful output, the other ones would be the same, but looks like RGB is the way to go with PS2, and don't know with Xbox.
Thomago, if you don't mind, could you post some screens of the PS2 using RGB and component cables? thanks!

[fAbZ]

First of all, fudoh, thanks for the previous advices!

And reading the latetst posts I understand that:

Wii component 480p ----> Frameister = Good
PS2 componet 480p ----> Frameister = Fail
PS2 RGB 480i ----> Frameister = Good
Xbox ---->Frameister = Don't know, maybe like PS2

Thought that if the Frameister was great with Wii's awful output, the other ones would be the same, but looks like RGB is the way to go with PS2, and don't know with Xbox.
Thomago, if you don't mind, could you post some screens of the PS2 using RGB and component cables? thanks!

For the PS2, from retrogaming Hazard city website, he says :

"15khz from a PS2 using a RGB cable instead is noise-free." and Thomago says "HOWEVER, if you want perfect picture quality please ditch the Component stuff. I tried it myself with a setup just like yours - the Mini's Component input is just horrible, especially if the Component signal comes from a PS2." So, you can ditch it with the XRGB-mini

[MMJuno]

While I can't speak to the difference with RGB on a PS2 vs. Component, I will say that the Framemeister does a better job than my TV itself in the PS2 Component image. So, even though people keep saying the Component is garbage, I'd say it's relative to your TV's capabilities.

On another note: Scanlines. No matter the settings between the Framemeister and my TV, I can't seem to get anything that I'm satisfied with. As some previous posters pointed out, the obvious stretching artifacts/moire patterns caused by not having integer scaling just looks bad to me. Put me in the camp with the people who'd rather deal with letterboxing the image to get even scan lines than the uneven stretching.

One thing I did notice (that I'm not sure was mentioned), is that in 1080 mode, the even and odd settings for the scanlines seem to each affect only half of the potential lines displayed. So, seeing this, I tried adjusting both to the same value. The problem is, sometimes this causes horrible flickering, and when it doesn't, trying to get the 2 different sets to look identical in intensity is nearly impossible. One set always seems to be slightly darker or lighter, no matter what setting I try.

So, for now, I'll have to abandon scanlines (outside of maybe SmartX2 mode, which I think was fairly close - but can't recall if I saw any issues there as well, or not...).

[fAbZ]

While I can't speak to the difference with RGB on a PS2 vs. Component, I will say that the Framemeister does a better job than my TV itself in the PS2 Component image. So, even though people keep saying the Component is garbage, I'd say it's relative to your TV's capabilities.

On another note: Scanlines. No matter the settings between the Framemeister and my TV, I can't seem to get anything that I'm satisfied with. As some previous posters pointed out, the obvious stretching artifacts/moire patterns caused by not having integer scaling just looks bad to me. Put me in the camp with the people who'd rather deal with letterboxing the image to get even scan lines than the uneven stretching.

One thing I did notice (that I'm not sure was mentioned), is that in 1080 mode, the A and B settings for the scanlines seem to each affect only half of the potential lines displayed. So, seeing this, I tried adjusting both to the same value. The problem is, sometimes this causes horrible flickering, and when it doesn't, trying to get the 2 different sets to look identical in intensity is nearly impossible. One set always seems to be slightly darker or lighter, no matter what setting I try.

So, for now, I'll have to abandon scanlines (outside of maybe SmartX2 mode, which I think was fairly close - but can't recall if I saw any issues there as well, or not...).

Scanlines are buggy with XRGB-mini, maybe a FW update or a manuall fontion for editing scanlines for each screen resolution ^^ (retrograming harzard city)

[Fudoh]

PS2 componet 480p ----> Frameister = Fail

I use my PS2 with component on the Mini. Don't exagerate the possible quirks.

On another note: Scanlines. No matter the settings between the Framemeister and my TV, I can't seem to get anything that I'm satisfied with.

then you're doing something wrong, because I'm PEREFECTLY happy with the scanlines on the Mini.

One thing I did notice (that I'm not sure was mentioned), is that in 1080 mode,

stop right here. Scanlines and 1080p won't work together - at least not with any satisfying results. If you want scanlines, use 720p output instead and be happy.

[MMJuno]

I *did* try in 720 as well. I was just noting the 1080 thing since I saw people mention before that it only did darken every 4th scanline or something like that (when technically this is true if *only* even or odd is set, setting *both* seems to affect the other half or "missing" lines - with caveats).

Any way, I still saw the uneven patterns in 720 due to the non-integer scaling - which, frankly, looks terrible to me. So far SmartX2 in 1080 mode is the closest I can seem to get to what I would expect.

Plain and simple: I'm just reporting stuff I've witnessed, since I know there's a "wishlist" for improvements/alterations for possible future firmware updates.

[Thomago]

Oh yeah, son great informations, i was scared of buying note the good things ...
Many thanks for tour help. I was thinking of this high end câble after the scart switch :
http://www.gebl.net/en/item/296/scart-p ... line-cable @ amazon
i Will post feedbacks after all in work

I don't see any price there, so just in case: High price doesn't neceassarily equal high quality. I use cheap "Goldkabel"-brand cables (http://www.goldkabel.de/index.php/profi_SCART_plus.html). Sure, you can buy cables that cost 10 or even 50 times that much, but I doubt you will notice any differences in picture quality.

About Component vs. RGB:

I mentioned earlier that I noticed heavy color banding + flickering when processing the PS2's component signal with the framemeister:

PS2 Component: http://i.imgur.com/aUoCL.jpg
PS2 RGB: http://i.imgur.com/E1ejb.jpg

Some people here don't seem to care about this, but I do and therefore cannot recommend processing the PS2's component signal with the Framemeister. Not as long as the vastly superior RGB signal is available.

[ZellSF]

How does RGB and 480p PS2 titles get along? Half the PS2 titles I play are at 480p.

[Thomago]

How does RGB and 480p PS2 titles get along? Half the PS2 titles I play are at 480p.

It doesn't.

[Fudoh]

It sure does (kinda). When your PS2 is set to RGB, 480p titles are output in RGsB format. Similar to Dreamcast titles in 480p RGBHV you can run this through a sync processor to get 480p RGBs, which the XRGB-Mini can understand.

@Thomago: I need to see this banding on my own setup. Can you please name a handful of titles, where I can see this ?

[Konsolkongen]

It sure does (kinda). When your PS2 is set to RGB, 480p titles are output in RGsB format. Similar to Dreamcast titles in 480p RGBHV you can run this through a sync processor to get 480p RGBs, which the XRGB-Mini can understand.

I can confirm this. I simply run the PS2's RGB signal through an Extron RGB 190 and it works with all output resolutions. 240p, 480i and 480p as far as I can tell.

EDIT: It's actually a RGB 192. So it's 2 better I guess.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extron-RGB-192- ... 19d6e1d977

[Fudoh]

But for 240p and 480i on the Extron you need a sync cleaner first. For 480p it works out of the box.

(PS: 190 is without audio, 192 is with audio. Otherwise the same).

[masqdgamer]

Looking to connect my PS2 to the xrgb mini.

I'm assuming the official Sony D Terminal output would be the best quality I can get, correct? (Same as RGB.. But RGB cables are hard to come by)

I have a US PS2, only own component cables currently.

I bought a set of Playstation RGB cables on eBay for around $10, and they work great for PS1 and PS2 with the Mini
this is the one that I have:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6FT-PRO-RGB-CAB ... 519ff2a50a

Only downfall that I have seen is that it wont transmit a 480p signal from the PS2, but I believe that is normal, correct?

[Konsolkongen]

I wasn't aware of that. I have a LM1881 built into my PS2, otherwise it won't work with the Extron Matrix.

[MMJuno]

@Thomago: I need to see this banding on my own setup. Can you please name a handful of titles, where I can see this ?

I can't say that I've noticed this banding either, so far. But then, I've only played through a couple of PS2 games since I got the Framemeister.

On a side note: For clarification, I edited my prior 2 posts since I remembered the setting names wrongly. Should have read even/odd instead of A/B for the scanlines.

[Thomago]

It sure does (kinda). When your PS2 is set to RGB, 480p titles are output in RGsB format. Similar to Dreamcast titles in 480p RGBHV you can run this through a sync processor to get 480p RGBs, which the XRGB-Mini can understand.

Cool, I didn't think of that!

@Thomago: I need to see this banding on my own setup. Can you please name a handful of titles, where I can see this ?

I will try to find some titles. The one where I got the screenshots from is Shadow Hearts 2 btw.

Until then: The PS2's option menu where you switch between Component and RGB output is a good example.

I managed to take some pictures: http://imgur.com/ZcpC2D9,8k4PYFt#0

RGB --> perfectly smooth color gradient
Component --> do you see the "blobs" to the far left and the far right? Color banding. It get's pretty noticable if you look at it for some time.

Actually gray color gradient in the PS2's memory card menu is the better example, however it shows slight banding even in RGB mode (no wonder - 32 bit color has its limits as long as no dithering is applied).

If you don't notice any color banding, maybe this is about the Framemeister's Deep Color option? I use a simple PC monitor that doesn't support it.

[Fudoh]

thanks! Will look into it tonight.

Only downfall that I have seen is that it wont transmit a 480p signal from the PS2, but I believe that is normal, correct?

as said above, the cable does transmit a 480p signal, but it's in RGsB format and the Mini won't recognize it.

[Thomago]

I'd like to add that using the "MOVIE" deinterlacing mode tends to smear color banding because of the added noise.
I mentioned the slight (and natural) color banding that you can see in the PS2's memory card menu in RGB mode, right? When using "MOVIE" mode, it isn't noticable at all.

I actually like the movie mode because of that: Besides being the only acceptable deinterlacing mode in and of itself (natural colors, no LPF, real deinterlacing) it improves picture quality; the added noise one could see as a downside isn't noticable ... well, at least not in 1080p mode, in 720p and 480p mode that it's kina annoying.

[fonf]

Hi call

I'm french and I've just received my xrgb-mini.

With my PAL Jaguar with rgb cable it's perfect. But with my PAL super Nintendo or my Super Famicom I have only sound but no pictures (No_Input). I did the test with the RGB super Nintendo cable and with the RGB GameCube cable. Same issue.

Please save me

[Thomago]

Just a wild guess, but try to change "SYNC_MODE" in the "VISUAL_SET" menu to "OFF" and than adjust the "SYNC_LEVEL" (last option in the aforementioned menu).

[fonf]

Ok, thank you, I will test this evening

It's a big issue for me as I bought XRGB mini to play SNES more than my other systems.

[Thomago]

Found another fine example for heavy color banding: Final Fantasy XII (I used the PAL version btw). Right after fighting the first enemy, go a little bit further ahead and to the left, then turn the camera. You'll be able to get this view:

http://imgur.com/fTXiORi,1pdpMY3,75CGkG1#0

Component: heavy color banding
RGB: no color banding
RGB after switching my LCD's signal source: This one's interesting. I noticed that the RGB signal showed slight color banding after switching the signal source of my monitor (HDMI to DVI and back again). Switching the monitor off and on again brought no improvement, however switching the Mini's signal source (RGB to D-Terminal and back again) brought back the smooth RGB picture I'm used to. Needlessly to say this trick doesn't work with Component input.

And Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne (aka Shin Megami Tensei: Lucifer's Call) shows heavy banding in the name selection screen (look at the character!).

[MMJuno]

I spent a little bit of time playing with the settings while in the PS2 system menus, looking for signs of banding... and, so far, I'm still not seeing it here.

Care to share the settings you're using when you see this? Also, I'm curious as to what model and region your PS2 is, in case this may be a factor (as with some of the differences we've seen here between revisions in other consoles).

[akumajo]

is there a Dreamcast game that you can "easily" switch between 15/31 Khz on the fly ?

[Fudoh]

not software-wise. It's more like a hardware-switch. Nearly every DC game decides between 15 and 31khz output depending on the connected cable.