XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Fudoh]

Have you tapped csync

Is there proper c-sync available somewhere ? I though Luma was the best option.

[RGB32E]

It doesn't happen on any of the NTSC HW I own - several different US Playstations, US PS 2 (fat & slim), or JP PS2 slim. The cables I use are the same stock as the SCPH-1050, but unterminated. So each signal other than +5VDC has it's own mini coax and I use polymer (ultra low ESR) capacitors on the RGB lines. I don't have any PAL Playstation HW or the particular RGB cable in question, so those are unknown variables. So one or both of those could be what is causing the issue, and somehow using Y instead of Cv happens to be a workaround. I'm guessing there's less signal information with Y compared to Cv with the particular cable in use that is causing interference on the RGB lines, or just something particular to PAL HW.

What marqs just said...

Have you tapped csync

Is there proper c-sync available somewhere ? I though Luma was the best option.

Luma seems to be the best option when your cables aren't official, or of the same stock.

Come to think of it, I had a static dither pattern when testing out a generic 360 SCART cable. When opening the cable to change the SCART plug to a DB25 connection for my PVM that the mfg ran composite video on the red coax braid (what should be connect to ground). So interference from composite video on RGB lines can cause a static dither pattern. Hence, I think it's this guys cable that's causing an issue.

[marqs]

Have you tapped csync

Is there proper c-sync available somewhere ? I though Luma was the best option.

This article points a few places where you can tap csync, but it seems the article contains an error with CXA1645M as according to datasheet pin 20 is composite video out (pin 10 is csync in). I'd also buffer the tapped sync signals, though they'll probably work directly with most displays.

[kel]

I've also come across the PSX's excessive dithering/checkerboard pattern. It's done my head in for years, all the time hoping that the next scaling device that I get does a better job but I've still not found a way to upscale some games without the dithering/checkerboard pattern making them almost unplayable.

Take for example Silent Hill. It looks awful on anything upscaled, direct to HD TV or through the Edge or XRGB-3. Even the PS3 recreates the same dithering/checkerboard pattern and that is emulated. The framemeister seems to make it look a bit better on Game_1 or standard like Shining said but you can still notice it.

Earlier today I tried using luma from the s-video signal for sync instead like Fudoh and Thomago suggested and it didn't make any difference for me.

[Thomago]

I've also come across the PSX's excessive dithering/checkerboard pattern. It's done my head in for years, all the time hoping that the next scaling device that I get does a better job but I've still not found a way to upscale some games without the dithering/checkerboard pattern making them almost unplayable.

Take for example Silent Hill. It looks awful on anything upscaled, direct to HD TV or through the Edge or XRGB-3. Even the PS3 recreates the same dithering/checkerboard pattern and that is emulated. The framemeister seems to make it look a bit better on Game_1 or standard like Shining said but you can still notice it.

Earlier today I tried using luma from the s-video signal for sync instead like Fudoh and Thomago suggested and it didn't make any difference for me.

Of course it didn't make any difference - the dithering you describe is SUPPOSED to be there! It doesn't look nice, that's for sure, but well - the PSX couldn't do any better.
Almost every PSX game uses this kind of dithering; that Silent Hill's dithering looks that excessive comes from its muted color palette.
Actually the only 3D PSX title I own that doesn't use dithering is Brave Fencer Musashi.

[RGB32E]

Good point about using a PS3 for PS1 games as a reference when checking for dithering.

[Hamburglar]

Does this apply for s-video as well? That's basically my only option for the PS1.

Don't do that! I tried S-Video from various devices (PS1, PS2 and a settop box) and thanks to the S-Video input's heavy LPF it looked really bad. Use RGB, as Fudoh said.

Wow. Thanks for the info. Why would the s-video input on the XRGB Mini have a different LPF? Why wouldn't it be the same quality/level as the RGB one?

When you say "heavy LPF", is that when I see the weird flickering/cloudy effect on certain solid colors unless I adjust the A/D setting?

[Smashbro29]

Does this whole PS1 issue come into play when you play a PS1 game in a PS2 via component?

[kel]

Of course it didn't make any difference - the dithering you describe is SUPPOSED to be there! It doesn't look nice, that's for sure, but well - the PSX couldn't do any better.
Almost every PSX game uses this kind of dithering; that Silent Hill's dithering looks that excessive comes from its muted color palette.
Actually the only 3D PSX title I own that doesn't use dithering is Brave Fencer Musashi.

It's a pity that's the case. I was always under the impression that it was meant to be there but part of me hoped that it was related to the problem that Shining mentioned in this thread and that using luma from the s-video signal for sync instead like yourself and Fudoh suggested would finally fix it for me but obviously Shining's issue is related to a 2D game and not 3D games like the one that I mentioned.

I haven't owned a CRT for years so I can't remember what it originally looked like but the dithering on 3D games like I mentioned is practically unnoticeable when viewed at their native resolution like on the official PSone LCD. It's just Once they are upscaled that it starts to become so noticeable.

I wonder if it is even possible then to upscale dithering like this without it looking so ugly? The framemeister using standard or GAME_1 mode seems to be the only one even close up to now in my opinion.

[Thomago]

Wow. Thanks for the info. Why would the s-video input on the XRGB Mini have a different LPF? Why wouldn't it be the same quality/level as the RGB one?

When you say "heavy LPF", is that when I see the weird flickering/cloudy effect on certain solid colors unless I adjust the A/D setting?

I don't know why Micomsoft implemented a different LPF für the S-Video input. The Mini's firmware is full of weird (and, imho, wrong) design decisions like that one.
The LPF (= low pass filter - a noise filter) leads to blurring of everything but high contrast edges.

I don't have actual screenshots, but just look at these two pictures; I applied a selective noise filter to the second one.

http://imgur.com/CSil2,ivugd

I wonder if it is even possible then to upscale dithering like this without it looking so ugly? The framemeister using standard or GAME_1 mode seems to be the only one even close up to now in my opinion.

The Standard and the GAME_1 mode apply said LPF to the picture, resulting in "smearing" of the dithering (you can see that in the two pictures above). I for one hate the resulting look.

[kel]

Yeah, I see what you mean. A bit like the smoothing option on the PS3 but not nearly as bad.

[Shining]

In this particular game (CV Chronicles), Game_1 actually makes the checkerboard a little less visible and with minimal loss in detail. For 99% of my games i use Picture and i would NEVER use Game_1 with 480p sources.

[marqs]

I tried my lag tester today with Mini and the results unfortunately indicate that it has a bit more lag than expected. There's a couple of things which could affect to that, so don't take my results for granted yet. My test display was Eizo FS2333, which according to reviews has input lag of <2ms plus pixel response time of ~7ms on digital inputs. Without Mini, the lag tester reported 7.5ms of lag on VGA input with native resolution (I generate analog test signals from PC).

With Mini, the chain is following: PC (VGA) > Sync combiner > Mini (RGB_in) > Display (HDMI IN). The lag tester probes Blue-component of VGA output, and measures the time diff between a transition in the signal and a luminance change on display (by a photoresitor in top-left corner of the monitor).

I started with 240p output, which gave me 22.8ms of lag with all picture modes I tested (standard, game1, meister, natural, picture). Setting output mode to DVI made no difference.

On 480i, the lag was 39.4ms. Interestingly, the result was identical with all tested picture modes - I had expected some variance here. Turning sync_mode off made the results jitter between 39-51ms.

Lastly, I tried 480p, which had 22.5ms of lag, making it on par with 240p.

Assuming that FS2333 has the same lag on digital and analog inputs (this is a big if), Mini seems to have around 15ms (1-frame) lag on non-interlace modes and 32ms (2-frame) lag on interlace modes. This isn't as bad as it could be, but a long way from the value reported by Mini and advertized by Micomsoft. I hope we'll get some comparision results from Leo's lag tester soon.

[ZellSF]

More lag than expected? I think most of us expected more lag than the results you posted.

[Konsolkongen]

Yeah that's not so bad

Anyone tried this lagtester with the DVDO Edge and compared it to the reported lag in the audio delay menu?

[Fudoh]

I started with 240p output, which gave me 22.8ms of lag

that's pretty consistent with our earlier measurements (with a Sega Nomad and Artemio's 240p suite).

The rest I'll compare to tests with Leo's gadget anytime soon.

[NWrain]

Marqs, have you tried 480i straight into the FS2333 HDMI input without upscaling or de-interlacing? The Eizo manual states that the HDMI input accepts 480i signals.

[jdubs]

I'm curious how the lag measurements for the Framemeister compare to other upsamplers like the iScans / DVDOs.

-Jim

[Smashbro29]

It would be odd to think that my XRGB 1 is adding 2 frames of lag (connected to a PC VGA CRT monitor) - I expected some lag but 2 frames seems rather high (considering what the system has to do).

XRGB1,2,2+,3 in B1 mode are really basically lag-free (certainly less than 4ms). Frameister's faster than most TV's analogue SD inputs and faster than the XRGB-3 in B0.

What happened to this claim? Unless I'm messing something up with numbers (quite possible) and the facts back up this claim?

[Shining]

Anyone with a US 1CHIP SNES, do you get glitching and artifacts on screen when playing Pocky & Rocky? The title screen looks fine but when the game starts it gets all glitched up. It might just be a connector issue but all of my other games work fine and i have never had any trouble with this cart before.

[Fudoh]

What happened to this claim? Unless I'm messing something up with numbers (quite possible) and the facts back up this claim?

still true and the ~22ms for the Framemeister fit in exactly.

[BuckoA51]

On 480i, the lag was 39.4ms. Interestingly, the result was identical with all tested picture modes

That is interesting, no need to use the flickery modes then if they don't cut input lag times. It is a shame that the lag times aren't as good as claimed by Micomsoft, I am sure better is possible though its not like things are unplayable as long as you use a nice low-lag TV.

[Smashbro29]

What happened to this claim? Unless I'm messing something up with numbers (quite possible) and the facts back up this claim?

still true and the ~22ms for the Framemeister fit in exactly.

So no matter what I throw at it the FM will lag under a frame (not taking into account my TV of course).

[Fudoh]

No, as mentioned above. You get slightly under one frame of delay for PROGRESSIVE sources (240p, 480p, likely 720p as well).

[Smashbro29]

No, as mentioned above. You get slightly under one frame of delay for PROGRESSIVE sources (240p, 480p, likely 720p as well).

Ah, ok. Good.

Interlaced sources more then? The only thing I can think of that would be interlaced is NES via composite.

Now that I have your attention: I've got just about everything figure out except 2 things:

How do I plug in a Dreamcast? It has No VGA port.

Where do I get this SCART converter to make ti work with American systems?

Is this: http://global.rakuten.com/en/category/e ... ent_cable/ good for the component to D terminal conversion?

Ok so I don't have much figured out but still, I want to buy everything I'd need before making the plunge on the actual device.

[Fudoh]

Interlaced sources more then? The only thing I can think of that would be interlaced is NES via composite.

NES is progressive in 240p, also via composite. Many PS2 titles are 480i, some Gamecube and Wii ones.

How do I plug in a Dreamcast? It has No VGA port.

but it accepts VGA through the front RGB port using a special cable. Or you can add a VGA-HDMI converter.

Where do I get this SCART converter to make ti work with American systems?

Retro Gaming Cables or Retro Accessoires.

Is this: ... good for the component to D terminal conversion?

I would highly recommend to a D-Terminal with female RCA connectors instead.

[Smashbro29]

NES is progressive in 240p, also via composite. Many PS2 titles are 480i, some Gamecube and Wii ones.

No kidding? Sweet! I'm no PS2 expert but a staggering majority of Gamecube games have 480p mode in the US.

but it accepts VGA through the front RGB port using a special cable. Or you can add a VGA-HDMI converter.

Wouldn't I already be using that port for a switch that had older consoles (SNES, GEN etc)? If I'm right about that and decide to go the HDMI route, it's just a cable? There's no signal loss or lag? How do I get the audio into it?

Retro Gaming Cables or Retro Accessoires.

I'm not 100% what I'm looking for really...

I would highly recommend to a D-Terminal with female RCA connectors instead.

Why?

How much worse is the latency on interlaced sources?

You're the man, man!

[Fudoh]

I'm not 100% what I'm looking for really...

http://www.retrogamingcables.com/europe ... -sale.html

Wouldn't I already be using that port for a switch that had older consoles (SNES, GEN etc)?

yes, but if you're a using a switch, you can simply connect the DC to that switch as well.

I'm right about that and decide to go the HDMI route, it's just a cable? There's no signal loss or lag? How do I get the audio into it?

no, VGA to HDMI is not just a cable, but a A/D conversion. Little box, takes VGA + audio and outputs HDMI. Costs about $40.

Why?

because if you have a component cable for a console, e.g. PS2 or GameCube or Wii, the cable ends in male connectors. Using a D-Terminal to RCA adapter cable with male end would require additional couplers.

How much worse is the latency on interlaced sources?

why not read a few posts above this one ?

[marqs]

No, as mentioned above. You get slightly under one frame of delay for PROGRESSIVE sources (240p, 480p, likely 720p as well).

Perhaps the exact delay is 1 frame plus the 1-2ms reported in the status screen. I was hoping that Mini would only buffer a couple scanlines instead of a full frame...

Marqs, have you tried 480i straight into the FS2333 HDMI input without upscaling or de-interlacing? The Eizo manual states that the HDMI input accepts 480i signals.

I'll try setting Mini output to 480p & 1080i next (I forgot to mention earlier that it was set to 1080p). There's no 480i output mode in Mini - if you meant measuring just FS2333's lag on 480i, I can't do that since my lag tester works only with analog sources.

On 480i, the lag was 39.4ms. Interestingly, the result was identical with all tested picture modes

That is interesting, no need to use the flickery modes then if they don't cut input lag times. It is a shame that the lag times aren't as good as claimed by Micomsoft, I am sure better is possible though its not like things are unplayable as long as you use a nice low-lag TV.

Yeah, in line doubler / bob mode (Game1) the lag shouldn't be any more than on 240p since it's basically doing the same thing. If you could trick Mini into 240p mode with 480i sources (this actually happens with my PSX after 240p->480i mode change until I change the input back and forth), you'd save 16ms with the output being the same.

[Smashbro29]

yes, but if you're a using a switch, you can simply connect the DC to that switch as well.

Does the HDMI option add lag? Also, is this the Dreamcast cable? http://www.ebay.com/itm/RGB-Scart-Cable ... 564a2e4bdb I don't think so but I've been wrong before.

no, VGA to HDMI is not just a cable, but a A/D conversion. Little box, takes VGA + audio and outputs HDMI. Costs about $40.

Well now it's just a matter of which one lags and price.

because if you have a component cable for a console, e.g. PS2 or GameCube or Wii, the cable ends in male connectors. Using a D-Terminal to RCA adapter cable with male end would require additional couplers.

That's what I thought, I'll go to Google! The one recommended wasn't cheap.

Where could I get good passive switches these days? I got ridiculously lucky with a Madcatz SCART switch for a pound but I need more inputs, figure I'll just daisy chain them.

Thanks for answering all my questions man, I appreciate it.