LiveWire ports SaiDaiOuJou to the Switch (all regions)

[CerealPT]

fully agree, specially a niche release like this one, literally half his review ranting about input lag and how we should emulate the xbox version instead (which ironically ends up having the same 5f amout of input lag?!)
i would say its on the weaker side of livewire cave ports due to having way less options compared to its older brother DDP DFK, being pricey and not having translations on the ingame menus (specially the ship selection menu) but i will take what i can get and hope for more future cave releases, between the ps4 and the switch there is a healthy selection of cave games that one would had not dreamed of 7/8 years ago.

Personally ive been enjoying this game in handheld mode, i really like the high resolution sprites. i will put some more hours into it this weekend.

[mirkvid]

Agree as well, we seem obsessed with input lag. I should go register shmups.inputlag.com

[DietSoap]

and how we should emulate the xbox version instead (which ironically ends up having the same 5f amout of input lag?!)

He wasn't saying you should emulate the 360 version, he was pointing out how silly it is that you aren't any worse off if you do since playing natively on this Switch port has just as much lag and no online leaderboards. Iirc he recommended emulating the arcade version or playing on an actual 360.

Regardless, I think obsessing over input lag is both fair and a good thing when we're only dealing with a port of an old game rather than something new.

[Starfighter]

Agree as well, we seem obsessed with input lag. I should go register shmups.inputlag.com

I'd bookmark it! I care a lot about input latency. But only whether it's under 6, 6 or over 6 - because that's my personal limit where I can't adapt to the delay anymore. (And I want to know if I can play a game before buying it.) So when I heard SaiDaiOuJou was 5 I bought it right away.

literally half his review ranting about input lag and how we should emulate the xbox version instead (which ironically ends up having the same 5f amout of input lag?!)

Well, I wouldn't call roughly a fifth "literally half". (The talk about input latecy starts at 28:45 and ends around 37:30, which is 8:45 out of 44:15.)

[Marc.bret.87]

Regarding Mark @ Electric Underground, I appreciate his passion for the genre and his clear investment in shmup history and mechanics knowledge sharing.

What does frustrate me, though, is his unwillingness to move on from what are some really quite ridiculous views about the role of the media. He remains hugely frustrated that IGN or whoever don't pore over input lag data in their shmup reviews, oblivious to the fact that 99.99% of their audience could not give fewer fucks about such things. That's what specialist shmup media - like his channel, for instance - is here for.

He doesn't even acknowledge the good work that's done to keep the genre relevant in the press. We have people like our very own OTA_spadgy providing fantastic reviews of new shmup releases on sites such as Eurogamer, several sites recognise the cultural value of shmups enough to spare indie shmup titles digital column space, and I can tell you for a fact that big shmup enthusiasts are alive and well in the mainstream games media. The EIC of one of the big Nintendo sites, for instance, is a huge shmupper (as can clearly be seen by their enthusiastic and normally knowledgeable coverage of the genre), yet Mark has a bee in his bonnet about them in particular because they stopped offering him review gigs when he was unwilling/unable to adapt his writing to the site's audience.

In fact, the whole thing rubs me up thee wrong way to such a degree that I've even spoke with Mark directly about it. But his mind's made up.

Incidentally, I'm not arguing that input lag is never an issue, but I do find the idea that the moment you move from 4 to 5 frames of lag a game is instantly rendered unplayable. I also find the fixation on the topic to be quite tiring. In my opinion, input lag need only ever be mentioned in the rare instances when it is excessive enough to be a problem. In all other instances, there loads and loads of much, much cooler and more interesting stuff we could be talking about.

I don't want to sound like The Electric Underground Defense Task Force, but some of the criticism levied here is not quite fair.

First of all, his complaint of the mainstream media is not so much for input lag, but rather their lack of analysis of a game's mechanics (not only shmups specifically). Some examples that come to mind is the comment on the RE4 Remake review that OG RE4 has bad pacing, the disastrous review of God Hand or the comment that it'd be nice if Ikaruga had five more levels. I don't remember him taking potshots specifically at Nintendo Life. I recently read his written review of the ESP Ra De M2 Shottriggers port and I thought it was quite good. If his style did not fit the website's style then well, he's a freelancer, so I don't see the big deal. I've seen reviews by Tom Massey in that website which are pretty excellent anyway.

Regarding input lag: the time spent on that according to the thumbnails is 10 min out of a 44 min long video. He discusses at length the game's mechanics and the modes in a way not many reviewers have done. Besides, I think discussing input lag, which was an issue in the previous port, is justified. Especially in a channel that is quite specialized. It'd be like complaining that a Digital Foundry video spends too much time on framerate drops or shadow maps that most people don't care/notice. I don't particularly care for it, because I am as far as can be from a high-level player, but I understand why it's there.

On the issue of the port itself being equal to using Xenia: I think that's, in a way, pretty damning. Without online leaderboards and an even worse input lag, why is the port needed over straight emulation? I think it's worth it for the sake of having the game available in modern platforms, but I can see his point about then not having any improvement on those issues in the near future, as the game will likely not receive any other port.

[Marc.bret.87]

Seems like in the time it took to write the entire message a couple other people came and made similar points, good stuff

[mirkvid]

Agree as well, we seem obsessed with input lag. I should go register shmups.inputlag.com

I'd bookmark it! I care a lot about input latency. But only whether it's under 6, 6 or over 6 - because that's my personal limit where I can't adapt to the delay anymore. (And I want to know if I can play a game before buying it.) So when I heard SaiDaiOuJou was 5 I bought it right away.

Haha, we should have a sticky!

[hamfighterx]

Regarding input lag: the time spent on that according to the thumbnails is 10 min out of a 44 min long video.

This isn't the great defense you seem to think it is. Even if mentioning input lag is relevant, is there really a good justification for talking about it for TEN MINUTES? There is nothing that needs to be said that requires that much time. It's tedious and nitpicky to the extreme.

[Tim James]

Mark is a critic who's also a hyper-enthusiast, so his standards and focus areas will be different. And like a lot of "gamer" reviewers, he expects top performance out of organizations that are likely just scraping by.

Whether this is a good or bad thing for any particular niche is always up for debate. I personally think it's okay to be hardcore. People can take it or leave it. Input lag also requires a bit of explanation compared to, say, poor framerate, which everyone understands. It takes a little more work to set a high standard for something like input lag.

[hamfighterx]

I watched the video though, and he's not using 10 minutes to get into valuable technical details or anything. His position basically boiled down to: "I really would have liked it if Live Wire had managed to reduce the input delay more than the source material. They didn't, and actually the performance is not bad (5 frames), but I wish it was better. Especially because SDOJ starts off more reasonable but gets intense so you really need low lag! I'd rather play it emulated." And then he goes on to repeat himself multiple times. There was no reason that needed to be 10 minutes of discussion.

[Steven]

It is most disappointing that at this point in history everything needs to be explained in the form of an unnecessarily long Youtube video that nobody wants to watch when reading text is significantly faster and more efficient. If there isn't something that explicitly and truly requires video footage to be explained, just give people the information that they seek in the form of text! It's faster and easier for everyone involved. Google is also an evil company and Youtube is best avoided so as to minimize use of and giving money to Google as much as possible, so there is also that.

Anyway 44 minutes WTF? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy???????????????????? Way too long! That's longer than the game itself! Seriously Electric Underground dude, if you read this, just make a script, like I said earlier. It will help you to cease rambling in circles, which apparently was done here once again, provided your script is properly written and edited. If the input lag section is indeed 10 minutes, that's also way too long.

Well, I don't know what's in the video and I'm not going to watch it to find out, but it's worth noting that 5 frames from the game itself isn't going to make the game terribly unplayable. It's those 5 frames plus the lag of the controller, and of course the extra frame from the USB port in the case of the people who haven't yet gotten the notice that wired on Switch adds lag, plus whatever your display adds. See? That didn't take 10 fucking minutes, did it? Yeah, I didn't think so.

[SavagePencil]

we like his voice, Steven

[Steven]

He likes his voice too, apparently.

[Starfighter]

Well, I don't agree with most that have been said about Mark's work but I do agree we should try to avoid Google as much as possible. This is, however, also another discussion. Let's get back to the topic at hand, shall we? I've found out (I asked about it the other day) that the version I tried first was "Saya", or arrange as it were. It was very different from the other modes I must say. Cool!

[DenimDemon]

This port is far from a missed opportunity.
Beside no leaderboards wich is a crime on any arcade release.

Anyway there isn't a way to play without wallpaper? On the previous live wire copy paste releases one could take all brightness down till it went black...
Btw this port has the same issue as the 360 release if I remember correctly, wich is the sound balance is a bit bad. Voices and sound fx are way too loud and music way too low.
So my settings are Music 100, SFX 60 voices 40...
Even if this game hates me from stage 3 onward... I prefer it to DFK of any flavour BL, BL Arrange and so on...

[Johnpv]

I stopped watching Mark's stuff a long while ago. It just got too, hmmmm my farts don't smell like if that makes sense. It's a shame Shmup Junkie, and Studio Mudprints stopped doing shmup reviews, I always preferred their stuff. Ed always did a really good job on breaking down mechanics and talking about that aspect.

[ThundergunExpress]

Did you 1cc Saya mode first try Starfighter? If so that's impressive. I could only get to stage 4 my first try. First three stages are fairly easy, but things really ramp up stage 4. I quickly was able to get to stage 5 consistently but I just haven't had the time to play this much since I got it.

[Steven]

Did anyone get Type-D yet? Still want to know about the slowdown.

[Starfighter]

Did you 1cc Saya mode first try Starfighter? If so that's impressive. I could only get to stage 4 my first try. First three stages are fairly easy, but things really ramp up stage 4. I quickly was able to get to stage 5 consistently but I just haven't had the time to play this much since I got it.

No, sorry for wording it like that - I just meant it was surprisingly easy for a Cave affair. I think I got into trouble on stage 5 and used a credit there and another one on the last boss (or next to last? I can't remember). So all in all three credits (or two "continues" as it were)! But when trying 1.5 for the first time I needed my first continue at stage two.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

This port is far from a missed opportunity.
Beside no leaderboards wich is a crime on any arcade release.

Anyway there isn't a way to play without wallpaper? On the previous live wire copy paste releases one could take all brightness down till it went black...
Btw this port has the same issue as the 360 release if I remember correctly, wich is the sound balance is a bit bad. Voices and sound fx are way too loud and music way too low.
So my settings are Music 100, SFX 60 voices 40...
Even if this game hates me from stage 3 onward... I prefer it to DFK of any flavour BL, BL Arrange and so on...

For DenimDemon,

If you play the Switch port of DDP-SDOJ in tate with a Flipgrip or Pintendo Flip setup, there isn't an option to dim the default wallpaper background whatsoever (just like on the original Xbox 360 port of DDP-SDOJ with the very same "wallpaper background issue" if played in tate as well as it isn't dimmable to black either).

However, if you set the Switch's HDMI output to 640 x 480p (in docked mode, of course) and use a down-convertor device to play on an SD TV or gaming monitor setup, you can adjust the screen so that the wallpaper is "out of sight" but yet still play in "full screen tate" as originally intended. This is the only "work-around" solution to the pesky wallpaper problem at hand for the time being.

Sure, Live Wire could've addressed the well-known "non-dimmable wallpaper issue" on the 360 port of DDP-SDOJ when played in tate for all game modes "by going the extra mile to actually fix it" with the Switch port of DDP-SDOJ but chose not to do so. It's pure laziness on their part as it is. A patch to address this problem sure would've been great but it, for sure, ain't gonna happen. We'll just have to be happy and content with the Switch port of DDP-SDOJ with it's "warts 'n' all." So be it.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[DenimDemon]

This port is far from a missed opportunity.
Beside no leaderboards wich is a crime on any arcade release.

Anyway there isn't a way to play without wallpaper? On the previous live wire copy paste releases one could take all brightness down till it went black...
Btw this port has the same issue as the 360 release if I remember correctly, wich is the sound balance is a bit bad. Voices and sound fx are way too loud and music way too low.
So my settings are Music 100, SFX 60 voices 40...
Even if this game hates me from stage 3 onward... I prefer it to DFK of any flavour BL, BL Arrange and so on...

For DenimDemon,

If you play the Switch port of DDP-SDOJ in tate with a Flipgrip or Pintendo Flip setup, there isn't an option to dim the default wallpaper background whatsoever (just like on the original Xbox 360 port of DDP-SDOJ with the very same "wallpaper background issue" if played in tate as well as it isn't dimmable to black either).

However, if you set the Switch's HDMI output to 640 x 480p (in docked mode, of course) and use a down-convertor device to play on an SD TV or gaming monitor setup, you can adjust the screen so that the wallpaper is "out of sight" but yet still play in "full screen tate" as originally intended. This is the only "work-around" solution to the pesky wallpaper problem at hand for the time being.

Sure, Live Wire could've addressed the well-known "non-dimmable wallpaper issue" on the 360 port of DDP-SDOJ when played in tate for all game modes "by going the extra mile to actually fix it" with the Switch port of DDP-SDOJ but chose not to do so. It's pure laziness on their part as it is. A patch to address this problem sure would've been great but it, for sure, ain't gonna happen. We'll just have to be happy and content with the Switch port of DDP-SDOJ with it's "warts 'n' all." So be it.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

I see. Well I can live with it
In the case of SDOJ, I've only played docked Tate so far...
Thanks!

[slateman]

This is a lazy port, I think we'll all agree. And, in three years' time, it'll probably expire just like Mushi, Galuda 2 and DFK. It's flawed and maybe it's a quick buck for LiveWire. It's no M2 sadly.

Then again, it's SDOJ on a modern platform and maybe I'm a sucker, but I plunked down that cash without an iota of hesitation. Warts and all, I'm happy, though all the gripes are certainly valid. AND I can play it (probably) on the Switch 2!!!

Now...M2...PLEASE beat LiveWire to a Futari port. DDP is my favorite shmup series, but I genuinely hope we get the full kick-ass treatment to my second-favorite shmup ever! (DOJ is #1, clearly! )

[CerealPT]

This is a lazy port, I think we'll all agree. And, in three years' time, it'll probably expire just like Mushi, Galuda 2 and DFK. It's flawed and maybe it's a quick buck for LiveWire. It's no M2 sadly.

fortunely one can still get their physical versions (and Radiant Silvergun)
I can imagine their prices going up in a not so distant future.
Will double dip on SDOJ as well if/when it gets physical version, could see LRG doing it sometime this year.
I believe M2 mentioned having some surprises to be released this year so fingers crossed for Futari, i personally would like Ibara but will take any cave release i can.

[Starfighter]

i personally would like Ibara

You know, Ibara would be really fun to see, I agree! I haven't spent much time on my PS2-version of the game but I remember I liked it more than Garegga.

[Marc.bret.87]

This is a lazy port, I think we'll all agree. And, in three years' time, it'll probably expire just like Mushi, Galuda 2 and DFK. It's flawed and maybe it's a quick buck for LiveWire. It's no M2 sadly.

Then again, it's SDOJ on a modern platform and maybe I'm a sucker, but I plunked down that cash without an iota of hesitation. Warts and all, I'm happy, though all the gripes are certainly valid. AND I can play it (probably) on the Switch 2!!!

Now...M2...PLEASE beat LiveWire to a Futari port. DDP is my favorite shmup series, but I genuinely hope we get the full kick-ass treatment to my second-favorite shmup ever! (DOJ is #1, clearly! )

If livewire ports Futari, I guess it'll just be the 360 port, which is done by M2 themselves, so it wouldn't be too bad.

[DenimDemon]

Been finally consistently getting 1cc on Novice. Feels good. Is just Novice but still... that never ending Stage 5 makes it much harder than any of the M2 Super Easy so far.

Talking about ports, got my Mushi Super Deluxe from Amazon.jp. Had it digitally but had to double dip

[davyK]

Been finally consistently getting 1cc on Novice. Feels good. Is just Novice but still... that never ending Stage 5 makes it much harder than any of the M2 Super Easy so far.

Talking about ports, got my Mushi Super Deluxe from Amazon.jp. Had it digitally but had to double dip

Unlike the other Cave ports, Novice SDOJ is no walkover so I'd be content with that as a stepping stone to normal level.

[BloodHawk]

Been finally consistently getting 1cc on Novice. Feels good. Is just Novice but still... that never ending Stage 5 makes it much harder than any of the M2 Super Easy so far.

Talking about ports, got my Mushi Super Deluxe from Amazon.jp. Had it digitally but had to double dip

I actually find myself enjoying Novice a lot. With it not being such a cake walk like in other Cave ports, it hits that spot for me where it's hard enough that I need to try but it doesn't take dozens of hours to learn.

I double dipped for the SDX physical of Mushi as well. My one complaint about it is that the Chip-tune arrangement soundtrack isn't selectable as the in-game BGM, when SDX's other Cave games and Radiant Silvergun had that option (maybe I am overlooking it?).

[DenimDemon]

Yeah Novice has been my go to mode. The Switch clocks 20 hours of SDOJ...
Played quite a bit since release but my progress on vanilla Arcade hasn't make it past stage 4 and I'm sure it will never will... well by pure luck maybe can't even imagine holding a few minute straight on Stage 5.
Cool thing on Novice is that you still have harder modes/dolls within this mode in case you want to spice things up quite a bit.
Besides feeing like hitting a wall in this game again since the 360 days, dont have the discipline or skill to make much further...still finding a lot to enjoy here on the other modes. Want to fire up the 360 in the coming days to see how it fares.

[mirkvid]

I'm playing novice as well. For some reason, I've never been able to read this game visually. Everything in the background kinda blends together and novice seems to help with that. Had the same issue with the 360 version.