Japanese gaming is dead

[dcharlie]

Gave Braid a go on the basis of this thread.

Ugly, fudgy controls, built in cheating, nothing special...

erm, built in cheating? How far did you get?

[neorichieb1971]

What the hell is wrong with you? The God of War series is notorious for having zero new ideas and cribbing everything it could from popular third person action games at the time. It was always all about presentation (and the presentation is embarrassing to anyone over the age of 14 - Todd McFarlane meets Mortal Kombat meets Greek Mythology). Demon's Souls has original gameplay and a weird, macabre atmosphere and is basically the latest entry in the long-running King's Field series.

Calm down young man. I'm not knocking Demon Souls, I'm just saying it looks a bit pedestrian. It looked ok. I like God of War because it was one of the few games that fueled my imagination playing it. I didn't care about the play mechanics, I wanted to see the story unfold whilst solving puzzles and killing shit. It also helped that more than one enemy was on screen and had a full orchestral score. I'm also a fan of Greek Mythology, are you going to hate me for that?

I will give Demon souls a good run through though. I'd never heard of it before this thread.

[cools]

Gave Braid a go on the basis of this thread.

Ugly, fudgy controls, built in cheating, nothing special...

erm, built in cheating? How far did you get?

The demo.

Time control in POP was worth it due to the level structure and limited use. In Braid... pointless.

If the demo isn't reflective of the full thing then they need to do something better with it

[Skykid]

Er... God of War is good. Not because everyone loves it or because it became a mainstream darling of the press, just because it's simple to play, involving and fun, and a very tight production. Everything is influenced by everything else, but GOW 1 on PS1 is still pretty mind boggling to play (considering the hardware.)

[Obiwanshinobi]

The God of War series is notorious for having zero new ideas and cribbing everything it could from popular third person action games at the time. It was always all about presentation (and the presentation is embarrassing to anyone over the age of 14 - Todd McFarlane meets Mortal Kombat meets Greek Mythology).

Er, not quite. The presentation is Frazetta meets Vallejo meets Segrelles etc. It's clearly based upon the Heavy Metal (SF & fantasy comics magazine) style of illustrations. Everybody who has grown on heroic fantasy books by Robert E. Howard, Karl Edward Wagner and the likes should recognise it. The creepy mugs are just a bonus.
One of the very few games of its time kind of looking like oil paintings in motion (other ones would be those powered by Jade engine: PoP, BG&E, King Kong). This has to count for something. Shame about the creepy mugs, but still...

[Elixir]

Gave Braid a go on the basis of this thread.

Ugly, fudgy controls, built in cheating, nothing special...

erm, built in cheating? How far did you get?

The demo.

Time control in POP was worth it due to the level structure and limited use. In Braid... pointless.

If the demo isn't reflective of the full thing then they need to do something better with it

the demo of braid is literally half the game

edit: oh and the latter stages are copy/paste jobs of the former ones with more time manipulation gimmicks, lol.

[dcharlie]

The demo.

oh right, not played the demo.

Time control in POP was worth it due to the level structure and limited use. In Braid... pointless.
If the demo isn't reflective of the full thing then they need to do something better with it

Pointless? um - again, no idea what impression the demo leaves but the various time/level control elements are integral to the game and solving the puzzles - it's pretty much the crux of the game so the demo has to be pretty awful to leave people with the opinion that the time control is pointless! It's the entire thing that the game is built upon.

edit: oh and the latter stages are copy/paste jobs of the former ones with more time manipulation gimmicks, lol.

*shrug* tough crowd, don't recall anything too cut and paste-y myself but hey.

involving and fun, and a very tight production. Everything is influenced by everything else, but GOW 1 on PS1 is still pretty mind boggling to play (considering the hardware.)

1) the rotating pillars in Hades in GOW1 can go suck a dick
2) PS2 surely ... though GOW2 arrived as "next gen" started and it was still so jaw dropping gorgeous looking.

[Drum]

The God of War series is notorious for having zero new ideas and cribbing everything it could from popular third person action games at the time. It was always all about presentation (and the presentation is embarrassing to anyone over the age of 14 - Todd McFarlane meets Mortal Kombat meets Greek Mythology).

Er, not quite. The presentation is Frazetta meets Vallejo meets Segrelles etc. It's clearly based upon the Heavy Metal (SF & fantasy comics magazine) style of illustrations. Everybody who has grown on heroic fantasy books by Robert E. Howard, Karl Edward Wagner and the likes should recognise it. The creepy mugs are just a bonus.
One of the very few games of its time kind of looking like oil paintings in motion (other ones would be those powered by Jade engine: PoP, BG&E, King Kong). This has to count for something. Shame about the creepy mugs, but still...

Fucking please. God of War wishes it was like Frazetta (it probably attains Vallejo levels at times - that is not a compliment). It is dripping with retarded trying-way-too-goddamn-hard-to-be-edgy, macho IM SO ANGRY angst that is more Disturbed video than Conan the Barbarian. It is designed for people who think Twizted and Slipknot are cool. It doesn't have an ounce of Howard's imagination or moral complexity (and he was a pulp writer through and through). It actually has a gameplay feature called a RAGE METER and it is not even being slightly ironic. Kratos is the worst character ever, from his obnoxious personality to his crappy pro wrestler/Mortal Kombat design. How much of a hack would David Jaffe have to be to turn the Hydra - the mythological monster best-suited for an awesome videogame boss battle - into Time Gal? It actually has a crate escort mission! It is a shitty game, though it controls and animates smoothly and occasionally attains majesty in the background environments (the level design is generally shitty though). I was laughing hysterically at it all the way through. Worst game ever - I'd even rather play Kingdom Hearts or Metal Gear than that crap.

Re: Braid: I thought it was pretty annoying. Absolutely hated Jonathan Blow's painful attempts at writing, though I guess that's pretty skippable. It doesn't have built in cheating - it's just a puzzle game (in fact, it's really just a puzzle - there is no game component at all).

[Skykid]

Fucking please. God of War wishes it was like Frazetta (it probably attains Vallejo levels at times - that is not a compliment). It is dripping with retarded trying-way-too-goddamn-hard-to-be-edgy, macho IM SO ANGRY angst that is more Disturbed video than Conan the Barbarian. It is designed for people who think Twizted and Slipknot are cool. It doesn't have an ounce of Howard's imagination or moral complexity (and he was a pulp writer through and through). It actually has a gameplay feature called a RAGE METER and it is not even being slightly ironic. Kratos is the worst character ever, from his obnoxious personality to his crappy pro wrestler/Mortal Kombat design. How much of a hack would David Jaffe have to be to turn the Hydra - the mythological monster best-suited for an awesome videogame boss battle - into Time Gal? It actually has a crate escort mission! It is a shitty game, though it controls and animates smoothly and occasionally attains majesty in the background environments (the level design is generally shitty though). I was laughing hysterically at it all the way through. Worst game ever - I'd even rather play Kingdom Hearts or Metal Gear than that crap.

Um... I thought it was just a videogame, y'know.

I thought the entire angry Kratos thing was meant to be tongue in cheek, and I really liked the use of mythology in it, had a lot of atmosphere.
The one thing GOW did was set a trend. What it did on the PS2 in terms of scale and dynamic camera movement has largely been the foundation for a truckload of stuff that arrived in the current gen. I don't thank it for that by any stretch, but at least it remains better than most at what it does.

Shitty game though? Nah.

[Drum]

Fucking please. God of War wishes it was like Frazetta (it probably attains Vallejo levels at times - that is not a compliment). It is dripping with retarded trying-way-too-goddamn-hard-to-be-edgy, macho IM SO ANGRY angst that is more Disturbed video than Conan the Barbarian. It is designed for people who think Twizted and Slipknot are cool. It doesn't have an ounce of Howard's imagination or moral complexity (and he was a pulp writer through and through). It actually has a gameplay feature called a RAGE METER and it is not even being slightly ironic. Kratos is the worst character ever, from his obnoxious personality to his crappy pro wrestler/Mortal Kombat design. How much of a hack would David Jaffe have to be to turn the Hydra - the mythological monster best-suited for an awesome videogame boss battle - into Time Gal? It actually has a crate escort mission! It is a shitty game, though it controls and animates smoothly and occasionally attains majesty in the background environments (the level design is generally shitty though). I was laughing hysterically at it all the way through. Worst game ever - I'd even rather play Kingdom Hearts or Metal Gear than that crap.

Um... I thought it was just a videogame, y'know.

Right - videogames are stupid and aren't worth taking seriously. I keep forgetting.

I thought the entire angry Kratos thing was meant to be tongue in cheek

Come on, you can't possibly believe that. In certain sequences it's obviously self-consciously over-the-top (wedging a half-naked girl in a mechanism to hold a door open etc.), but so much of it is so painfully self-serious. Don't make me post story sequences from youtube.

The one thing GOW did was set a trend. What it did on the PS2 in terms of scale and dynamic camera movement has largely been the foundation for a truckload of stuff that arrived in the current gen. I don't thank it for that by any stretch, but at least it remains better than most at what it does.

Dynamic camera? Sounds like some nerdy videogame shit.

[Skykid]

Um... I thought it was just a videogame, y'know.

Right - videogames are stupid and aren't worth taking seriously. I keep forgetting.

Well, no, not to that degree. At least not for me. I grew up playing videogames where blue hedgehogs ran through tunnels and freed animals from robot shells. I didn't read any freudian shit into Robotnik's state of mind, and there are very few games now that I'd consider anything except superficial. Not taking them deadly seriously doesn't make them stupid though - just fun.

I thought the entire angry Kratos thing was meant to be tongue in cheek

Come on, you can't possibly believe that.

Sincerely! I thought it was completely tongue in cheek! Totally OTT and amusingly violent. It made me laugh.
It's a game where you get to butcher the Gods of Olympus - that's awesome!

Dynamic camera? Sounds like some nerdy videogame shit. I'm not talking about that.

Dewd, something's eating you about this game eh? Being on a shmups forum is nerdy videogame shit, creating groundbreaking and innovative camera movement that sets the pace for games that follow is something entirely different.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Fucking please. God of War wishes it was like Frazetta (it probably attains Vallejo levels at times - that is not a compliment). It is dripping with retarded trying-way-too-goddamn-hard-to-be-edgy, macho IM SO ANGRY angst that is more Disturbed video than Conan the Barbarian. It is designed for people who think Twizted and Slipknot are cool. It doesn't have an ounce of Howard's imagination or moral complexity (and he was a pulp writer through and through). It actually has a gameplay feature called a RAGE METER and it is not even being slightly ironic. Kratos is the worst character ever, from his obnoxious personality to his crappy pro wrestler/Mortal Kombat design. How much of a hack would David Jaffe have to be to turn the Hydra - the mythological monster best-suited for an awesome videogame boss battle - into Time Gal? It actually has a crate escort mission! It is a shitty game, though it controls and animates smoothly and occasionally attains majesty in the background environments (the level design is generally shitty though). I was laughing hysterically at it all the way through. Worst game ever - I'd even rather play Kingdom Hearts or Metal Gear than that crap.

You seem so angry that I'm going to assume God of War rubs you the wrong way because it reminds you of yourself too much.
For the record, I have never implied that GoW is anywhere near Howard books in terms of depicted world, the protagonist or the storytelling. The visual style, however, derives heavily from the aforementioned Frazetta, his followers and predecessors (such as Hal Foster). While it does not look quite as good, it's a videogame rendered in real time by the PS2 for goodness sake, and with this in mind, how it does look in places kind of like those paintings is quite an achievement. I haven't seen it done better by any 3D game before (PoP:TSoT is up there, but sports just as creepy mugs as God of War). The curse of bad character design is so prelevant in western games that singling out GoW on that basis strikes me as petty-minded, moreover, Kratos being a silly twat is just a benefit of inventory any videogame about a professional soldier brings along. So you play through the game as a moron, big deal. God of War isn't any more stupid than, say, Call of Duty.
P.S. PoP:TSoT does have better animations, more sophisticated game design and is a better game alright. Its protagonist, however, is just as unlikeable a character as Kratos if you ask me.

[Drum]

Dewd, something's eating you about this game eh? Being on a shmups forum is nerdy videogame shit, creating groundbreaking and innovative camera movement that sets the pace for games that follow is something entirely different.

That was sarcasm.

@OwS: I don't like PoP or Call of Duty either (though they don't bother me nearly as much as GoW). I don't agree that PoP has more sophisticated game design than GoW. I have no idea why you are bringing those games up. I think Kratos stands out as being particularly focus-tested and awful, and I don't think criticising him is redundant or petty. I actually can't think of any recent western designs as bad as Kratos - you have to go all the way to Japan to find worse stuff (they seem to be the kings of both good and hideous character design). There are certainly blander western designs, but I can't think of any that were designed so carefully to appeal to Juggalos. I have no idea what you are talking about with the limitations of the PS2 - I don't mean the game has bad graphics on a technical level (in fact I said some aspects of presentation were good). Mystifying comment.

[Taylor]

Demon Souls looks ok, a bit by the numbers though. After God of War Demon Souls looks a bit pedestrian, perhaps its a different style of game. I only watched youtubes.

After apples, those oranges look pretty pedestrian.

Yeah, and wasn't particularly successful in killing the thread either, since he hasn't posted in the last five pages.

I thought threads outliving their welcome was a requirement? "Is Japanese gaming dead?" is a question with an instant two letter answer that requires zero pages of discussion. And Keiji, as Elixir eloquently pointed out (I thought), is only speaking from the POV of Capcom's latest dubious practices. Keiji also isn't really talking directly about game design at all, but monetisation and franchise exploitation.

[Skykid]

Yeah, and wasn't particularly successful in killing the thread either, since he hasn't posted in the last five pages.

I thought threads outliving their welcome was a requirement? "Is Japanese gaming dead?" is a question with an instant two letter answer that requires zero pages of discussion. And Keiji, as Elixir eloquently pointed out (I thought), is only speaking from the POV of Capcom's latest dubious practices. Keiji also isn't really talking directly about game design at all, but monetisation and franchise exploitation.

It's been a good discussion and I've enjoyed it. There was never really a question to be answered here, just a topic to get our teeth into, and it went far beyond the original post and Inafune's negativity into some genuinely pertinent points and telling opinions that were definitely worth hearing.

It's been good folks, thanks for the chat.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I actually can't think of any recent western designs as bad as Kratos - you have to go all the way to Japan to find worse stuff (they seem to be the kings of both good and hideous character design).

You've got to be kidding me. The only semi-recent "professional" Japanese designs (and animations) I find cringe-inducing on a level comparable to that... thing would be those from Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song and that's it. (Suikoden Tierkreis has similar character design, but I've yet to see it in motion and am in no hurry to do so.) GoW is aesthetically way more sufferable in my book. It helps that its animations are mediocre at worst and in some aspects quite decent. When it comes to the off-putting animations in TPP games, west takes the cake alright (example 1, example 2), but GoW certainly isn't the worst offender.
(The reason why I'm talking about animations now is because I find GoW somewhat lacking in the animations and character design departments alike, but not to the point of getting my rage metter fulled.)

There are certainly blander western designs, but I can't think of any that were designed so carefully to appeal to Juggalos.

For real? That's PlayStation for ya.



Sony games rendered me pretty much immune to this kind of shit. There's more to, for example, Twisted Metal: Black than just the ugliness and bad character designs (and that is one ugly game in most respects). You just fail to back up your grand statements ("worst game ever" etc.) with any substantial criticism of GoW. I agree that it's a wee touch stinking on the cosmetical front, but "worst game ever" would be something, you know, a little less playable.

I don't agree that PoP has more sophisticated game design than GoW.

From what I know, The Sands of Time is the most seamless cinematic platformer to ever grace 3D. To make excellent animations is one thing, but to design the explortaion and puzzle solving around them in a way that never looks dodgy, without resorting to so called quick time events, is a thing of sophistication. In this (sub)genre the aesthetics must be merged with the gameplay as seamlessly as possible and The Sands of Time does it with flying colours (the combat is dodgy, but only the vultures really spoil the main course of the game). GoW is not quite as elegant and slick in this regard.

[cools]

The demo.

oh right, not played the demo.

Time control in POP was worth it due to the level structure and limited use. In Braid... pointless.
If the demo isn't reflective of the full thing then they need to do something better with it

Pointless? um - again, no idea what impression the demo leaves but the various time/level control elements are integral to the game and solving the puzzles - it's pretty much the crux of the game so the demo has to be pretty awful to leave people with the opinion that the time control is pointless! It's the entire thing that the game is built upon.

Then I retract the cheating statement.

Heres how it went:
Start demo. Read texts that appear on screen when character is in a precise position. Understand he is a lost cause obsessed with one woman. Move to next bit. Spot button presses embedded in the level structure. Try all the other buttons too to work out what they do. Find out the time control button. Move through a few levels grabbing some jigsaw pieces. Assemble some. Realise that if the whole game is going to be a non-linear platform puzzler like this I'm not going to enjoy it at all. Stop demo.

Not a fan of the genre in general, and never have been. Stuff like TNZS, SMB3, Bill & Ted, and the Donkey Kong game on the GB (the name escapes me) I enjoy. Stuff like Dizzy, Metroid, Castlevania I do not

Thankfully Braid has a demo!

[Taylor]

I wish he was just obsessed over a woman.
SO DEEP.

[Elixir]

Yeah, Braid was about the atomic bomb. The girl was the bomb, and the guy's a placeholder for mankind's influence by the real atomic bomb. Or some shit.

Spoilers, but don't worry, none of this is explained in the end. Like everyone else, I only found out thanks to the internet.

So deep.

[dcharlie]

Thankfully Braid has a demo!

as Drum mentioned somewhat, the game is a puzzle game that's presented as a platformer - it's not actually a platformer... it just looks like one.

[xris]

Bethesda announced today that they bought Tango studios, wich currently employs Shinji Mikami as the project head for their next game. On the plus side, he might get to use the Rage engine.

[Elixir]

Inafune quit.

I'll take this as good news.

[Kaiser]

Inafune quit.

I'll take this as good news.

I gotta say that after last two months. I had enough of that idiot... he may be a megaman head but his idiocy ruined Lost Planet 2 and it's sales. However the worst offending thing he said is that the games need to be more western *facepalm*, after that I hated him with passion.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Many people seem to be willingly bailing out of Capcom, though. Such as former Studio Clover dudes. You just wait for the masterpieces Capcom is about to develop without them. A company that used to develop friggin' Zelda for Nintendo, no less, now is outsourcing friggin' Devil May Cry to another company, not even particulary famous for their TPP slashers. How promising.

[neorichieb1971]

Well the problem is Capcom wanted to bully their artists and programmers around, shoe horn them into franchises till the cows came home.

Ultimately suppressing the artistic qualities of the person. I am very much in favour of talent making what they want. Surely being a dev team is like building a legacy. You will be remembered for what you do, not how much money you made.

At the moment Capcom is a bunch a bigwigs who knew better, but now have nobody left to command. You know when its bad, Sony doesn't even buy them lol.

[Drum]

Many people seem to be willingly bailing out of Capcom, though. Such as former Studio Clover dudes. You just wait for the masterpieces Capcom is about to develop without them.

Yeah, but they left in what could reasonably be described as a tantrum, or else they were pushed out (unlikely). Clover produced a string of bombs/disappointments that were basically expensive vanity projects and Capcom footed the bill. Maybe they felt Capcom owed them some creative freedom after the huge hits they gave them - presumably Capcom felt the same, or they wouldn't have given them their own special studio and a ton of money.
Kamiya then went on to show the world that he'd failed to learn his lesson, or is a master at getting what he wants, by making Bayonetta. We'll see what happens, but I don't see Platinum continuing to put out stuff like Bayonetta/Mad World and remain doing what they're doing.

Well the problem is Capcom wanted to bully their artists and programmers around, shoe horn them into franchises till the cows came home.

Ultimately suppressing the artistic qualities of the person. I am very much in favour of talent making what they want. Surely being a dev team is like building a legacy. You will be remembered for what you do, not how much money you made.

Then maybe they shouldn't have been using Capcom's money?

At the moment Capcom is a bunch a bigwigs who knew better, but now have nobody left to command. You know when its bad, Sony doesn't even buy them lol.

uh

[neorichieb1971]

This is a double edged sword. By Capcom giving money for creativity perhaps will spawn more successful franchises. You can't just make product A until the end of time because that is also counter productive eventually. Look at Sonic.

I think what this comes down to is shareholders. People who have no interest in games, just attracted to the industry by bonanza profits when they read stuff like "The videogame industry is bigger than the movie industry".

It seems you have to hit bullseye everytime. It also seems like creativity has to be subsidized by the big boys that make money on hits such as Halo and GTA. Its probably this movement which has happened in the past 4 years or so that has brought us to waggle mania, wii fit and such.

[dcharlie]

read the 4gamer article (or a translated version) - Inafune is right. 6000% right.

[Skykid]

Inafune quit.

He's obviously been following the thread.

[dcharlie]

Kamiya then went on to show the world that he'd failed to learn his lesson, or is a master at getting what he wants, by making Bayonetta. We'll see what happens, but I don't see Platinum continuing to put out stuff like Bayonetta/Mad World and remain doing what they're doing.

*headtilt* Bayonetta is a least a critical success and i don't think it was that big of a disaster at retail?

Madworld was pretty naff though - interesting for one level then... ugh.