XRGB-mini Framemeister

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BuckoA51
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by BuckoA51 »

If you modify your SEGA consoles you'll be able to play most of your PAL games perfectly in 60Hz.
That's not the case with the Megadrive in my experience, the refresh you get when you force a PAL Megadrive to 60hz is far enough out of spec to trip up lots of TV's and then you get stuttery scrolling.

Like the rest of you I avoid PAL wherever possible but sometimes (e.g with Amiga games) it's not possible to avoid. I did a bunch of tests on PAL material on the Framemeister, my findings are here:- http://www.videogameperfection.com/av-g ... ture-test/
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Aatos
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Aatos »

Thank you both for replies!

Bucko, oh, that was yours? I think I read that couple of times too, very informative.

When it comes to avoiding PAL, we all do our best of course ;). Not sure if people here actually prefer Everdrive/Powerpak -type devices or collect games as well, but for some systems I felt it was impractical for me (in other words too darn expensive) to import huge amounts of games and consoles when they could be found easier inside Europe. N64 for me was such console, and additionally NES has some PAL exclusives that don't work properly on NTSC so I have to keep both for optimum gameplay. Additionally I have my old (PAL) DC that hasn't seen much action or collection building YET, but I was thinking of staying in PAL region with that too for the time being. Based on what I've read, despite the problems, Framemeister should provide adequate PAL support for my needs for these consoles, especially if DC can be easily converted into 60Hz (hasn't looked much into that yet). Megadrive I don't actually yet have, but when the time comes for me to acquire one it seems NTSC is the only way to go (as it was with SFC for me).
Konsolkongen wrote:I use the same settings for all 240p games and 480i/p games though. I rarely have to change a lot (if anything) between consoles.
This was good to hear - the impression I got was that everyone pretty much spends like 30 minutes with the settings before starting any new game :D. I'm sure I'll be fine with same settings as well.
Konsolkongen wrote: Only one system per input. But there are several switchers that does a good job so you can connect more systems to the unit at the same time. Bucko knows all about that.
Oh yeah, I was going to inquire about reliable switches too but I think I already saw Bucko's list/reviews somewhere. Generally, I was under the impression that switches always take away from quality but I guess proper switches can be found/built (if one has the nack for it, I currently don't..).

Overall, as a n00b, it would be very interesting & educating to hear more about the "complete" setups people have - the sources, the switches, the cables and even the tv, as well as what kind of caveats these setups might have (if one needs to constantly fiddle with settings, zoom when it comes to PAL/PSP, etc.).
But I think I came to the conclusion that NTSC PS1 games won't work on a modded PAL PS2 with component. It does seem to work fine with RGB though. RGB will be less noisy than component anyway, and if you add an Extron RGB interface (Fudoh will know the ones) before the XRGB you can even play PS2's 480p games in VGA, which is very cool :)
By not working do you mean you got no picture, bad quality, or..? I realize you might not have any more experience on this, but I was wondering if someone would know better how the whole PS2 PAL/NTSC -thing works; the output is decided by the software (unlike in e.g. NES), but whatabout the interluding loading screens, is their signal native to the system (in other words, is that a potential source of confusion/slow mode switch)? Also, I thought PAL must be manually switched so even if the settings could be otherwise left alone, one must go switch that (before or after?) booting up a PAL game?

Infering from the previous discussion it does indeed seem that even though this cable is sold as US/Japanese cable, it's actually what is otherwise known as euro-scart (whereas the "Japanese scart" should be properly called JP21 to avoid confusion, right?). Hoping someone could confirm this to a n00b sometime before I fry my new mini with it ;).
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Konsolkongen
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Konsolkongen »

Aatos wrote: Overall, as a n00b, it would be very interesting & educating to hear more about the "complete" setups people have - the sources, the switches, the cables and even the tv, as well as what kind of caveats these setups might have (if one needs to constantly fiddle with settings, zoom when it comes to PAL/PSP, etc.).
I posted my setup on a Danish site, where I mention all the stuff you can see in the pictures. You can always try google translate or PM me if some of it seems confusing:
http://www.playright.dk/forum/emne/3979 ... l-setup-ud
(halfway down the page)
By not working do you mean you got no picture, bad quality, or..?
Pretty sure it was no picture. Component works fine for PS2 games in 50 and 60Hz though...
I realize you might not have any more experience on this, but I was wondering if someone would know better how the whole PS2 PAL/NTSC -thing works; the output is decided by the software (unlike in e.g. NES), but whatabout the interluding loading screens, is their signal native to the system (in other words, is that a potential source of confusion/slow mode switch)? Also, I thought PAL must be manually switched so even if the settings could be otherwise left alone, one must go switch that (before or after?) booting up a PAL game?
Once you set the EU game to display in 60Hz it works just as well as a US/JAP one. All 50/60Hz select screens are shown in 50Hz, so when you switch to 60 there will be a delay until you get a picture again. But you only have to worry about this when starting your games. At least now you can see the select screen, with the older firmwares (before 50Hz) you had to blindly choose 60Hz to proceed :D
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Shining
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Shining »

For those who might have the same problem as me, here's a tip:

If you get a wobbly, slighty tilted line at the top of your screen when using an AV Famicom with your Mini - set the Mini's output to DVI/480p. This solved my problem and it's such a relief. It's probalby only an issue with my TV though.
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Fudoh »

happened to me as well (Sony LED).
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Konsolkongen
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Konsolkongen »

Only with composhit, or?
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Fudoh »

yepp
empire00
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by empire00 »

Can anyone confirm for me that the output of this device is HDCP free for component and composite connections? I am wanting to use to upscale my classic games for streaming/youtube and my caputure device wont record HDCP content. Thanks in advance. :D
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BuckoA51
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by BuckoA51 »

Yes, of course it is.
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akumajo
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by akumajo »

hey everyone, xrgb wiki need you :mrgreen:
please help us to reach the next level :oops:
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BuckoA51
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by BuckoA51 »

Ok, I will spend some time editing/writing soon. I guess it being a Wiki all changes are backed up so if I hack away / move large parts and people disagree it can just be restored?
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Artemio
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Artemio »

BuckoA51 wrote:Ok, I will spend some time editing/writing soon. I guess it being a Wiki all changes are backed up so if I hack away / move large parts and people disagree it can just be restored?
Yes that is the case, and I backup monthly aside from the wiki history.

I already added a few place holders, when I am free from the heap of work I am atm, I'll contribute further. If anyone has any issue with their accounts of the wiki, please let me know asap via pm.
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Shining
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Shining »

Konsolkongen wrote:Only with composhit, or?
Yep

Any word on a 1CHIP-01/02/03 comparison?
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Konsolkongen
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Konsolkongen »

My EU 1CHIP SNES has noticeable shadows on most sprites. Fudoh's 1CHIP system apparently doesn't :)

Not sure what model his is :)
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Fudoh »

It's a japanese 1CHIP-01 system. It's on the list:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html
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darthcloud
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by darthcloud »

Shining wrote:
Konsolkongen wrote:Only with composhit, or?
Yep

Any word on a 1CHIP-01/02/03 comparison?
I have 1CHIP-01 and 1CHIP-03 it's the same quality wise.

But my 03 don't output composite sync, so I had to use the sync from CV for this one.
I saw that some resistor are missing around the multiout port but didn't bother look futher since the quality was the same like my other one.
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chronic1
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by chronic1 »

Here's a link to a video of my supergun running through the xrgb-mini!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALj_Lsl9ev0

I'll try to describe my settings the best I can. Please let me know if there are any tweaks I should consider:
  • Output 720p
  • Game1 w/ scanlines enabled through C button
  • Standard (next to the aspect ratio buttons)
  • Auto (for the aspect ratio)
  • V_WIDTH set to 33 from 32 (as suggested by junkerHQ's wiki to eliminate some gnarly black lines)
-=<chronic1>=-
HydrogLox
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by HydrogLox »

I wondered if someone could please could give me a hint on what I'm overlooking.

I picked up a Dell U2312HM during the Cyber-Monday sale, hoping to use it with the XRGB-mini.

Problem: When the XRGB-mini is hooked up to the U2312HM the blue color is missing entirely. Having 'blue background' on for no-input there is simply darkness with a reddish haze. Any RGB input is displayed without blue.
  • XRGB-mini is at firmware version 1.07, PCB version 1.2
  • XRGB-mini works fine with ye olde Sharp Aquos LC-26D43U (720p)
  • Using a Startech HDMI to DVI-D Video Cable Adapter
  • Both XBox 360 and PS3 work fine with the above cable on the Dell U2312HM
  • Tried HDMI (1080p and 720p) and DVI mode on the XRGB-mini - blue color remains absent on the Dell U2312HM.
I would be grateful for any pointers. Thanks in advance!
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Fudoh »

Game1 w/ scanlines enabled through C button
use picture instead of game1 for decreased low pass filter setting and therefore slightly more details. You can also adjust the scaling settings and set horizontal scaling to 5 for increased sharpness (while leaving sharpness at zero).
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Fudoh »

@HydrogLox

did you try switching the mini from YCbCr to RGB output (or vice versa) ? This should happen automatically when you switch to DVI mode, but who knows. Also disable deep color by hand.
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by HydrogLox »

Thank You for your help Fudoh!
Fudoh wrote:Also disable deep color by hand.
It was disabled.
Fudoh wrote:did you try switching the mini from YCbCr to RGB output (or vice versa)?
I have no clue how to accomplish that. While looking for a menu option that might do just that I noticed that the wiki mentioned that the current firmware is 1.07A (rather than 1.07).
In desperation I updated the XRGB-mini - and the problem was fixed. May have not been the firmware itself but maybe the flashing reset something important. I previously did a full reset but that didn't help.

SPECIAL>FULL_STATUS seems to always show PAGE 2 OUTPUT COLOR:RGB.

So the problem seems to have gone away - but I still don't know how to switch the output from RGB to YCbCr and vice versa.

Thank You.
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Fudoh »

So the problem seems to have gone away - but I still don't know how to switch the output from RGB to YCbCr and vice versa.
there's a color space option somewhere which can be switched between RGB and AUTO. Auto choses YCbCr for HDMI modes, when the TV supports it (read the EDID data), otherwise it defaults to RGB. My TV has a slight chroma delay with YCbCr signals, so I force the output to RGB.
HydrogLox
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by HydrogLox »

Fudoh wrote:there's a color space option somewhere which can be switched between RGB and AUTO. Auto choses YCbCr for HDMI modes, when the TV supports it (read the EDID data), otherwise it defaults to RGB. My TV has a slight chroma delay with YCbCr signals, so I force the output to RGB.
Found it under OPTIONS > OUTPUT_COLOR > RGB/AUTO
(Seems by default to be set to AUTO)
Good to know!

Thank You again Fudoh!
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marqs
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by marqs »

Fudoh wrote:there's a color space option somewhere which can be switched between RGB and AUTO. Auto choses YCbCr for HDMI modes, when the TV supports it (read the EDID data), otherwise it defaults to RGB. My TV has a slight chroma delay with YCbCr signals, so I force the output to RGB.
I think AUTO chooses the output format according to the input, so RGB for RGBin and YCbCr for component (and probably for cvbs/s-video too). I'll have to re-check in the evening.

Read this topic through during the last few weeks, quite a lot of info which would be nice too see in the wiki too. I've been mostly satisfied with the Mini, and the compatibility with my older consoles has been good enough so far:

RGB-Famicom (NJM amp): Works fine, no dropouts
US-SNES (launch rev.): Didn't sync when using composite video as sync - fixed after changing to csync
PSX (SCPH-5502): Regular dropouts and elevated black level - I'll try LM1881 or tap csync from mobo next
RGB-N64 (US CPU-04 model): works fine with both 50Hz and 60Hz games (using csync).

My only complaints so far are the delay when changing video modes (e.g. 240p<->480i) and the lack of automatic refresh rate set according to the input.
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RGB32E
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by RGB32E »

Tried out the GameCube with the XRGB-mini and was satisfied with the results. I don't have the D-Terminal cable or a component to D-Terminal adapter (one from XRGB-3 is buried somewhere) so I converted the component to RGBS via an Extron CVC 300 and fed the output to the RGB input on the mini. Using picture mode "Picture" 480i games looked really nice. I also checked the Zelda collectors disc and found that the GameCube can output 240p in a similar fashion as the Wii. NES titles will output 240p when system is set to 480i, but not when set to 480p (given). I'm thinking that using one of my RGB modded component cables would be better, but would need to add a sync combiner circuit or find out if the DAC actually outputs CSYNC. I could always feed the mini SYNC via composite video or luma (Y) from the SNES connector, but that wouldn't work when switched to progressive scan (480p).

Have any of you converted the Wii's component output to RGBS and tried that with the XRGB-mini?
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Fudoh »

Using picture mode "Picture" 480i games looked really nice.
that can't be. Picture mode switches deinterlacing to a 2:2 weave mode which gives perfect details on static images, but you'll always get combing with movement. Picture mode can be used with some 480i titles if you up the V_SCALER setting to 8, but it's not perfect either. I'm sure you used another deinterlacing mode. Or you meant 480p output ...
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RGB32E
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by RGB32E »

Fudoh wrote:that can't be. Picture mode switches deinterlacing to a 2:2 weave mode which gives perfect details on static images, but you'll always get combing with movement. Picture mode can be used with some 480i titles if you up the V_SCALER setting to 8, but it's not perfect either. I'm sure you used another deinterlacing mode. Or you meant 480p output ...
No, I used both Natural and Picture mode. Yes, there was field combing with Picture mode, but how is that unlike playing 480i on a SDTV? I was mostly playing Killer 7 and didn't find it to be that objectionable. Do you have a preferred picture mode for 480i content? I think I left V_SCALER set to 6 or 7. I seem to recall that a setting of 8 will blur the picture.

Also, looks like CSYNC isn't available from the CMPV-DOL IC, so I'll have to add a combiner circuit:
http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendodigitalav
:|
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Fudoh »

No, I used both Natural and Picture mode. Yes, there was field combing with Picture mode, but how is that unlike playing 480i on a SDTV?
the difference is that you get both fields (along with combing) at the same time on a LCD, while you only get one field at a time on a CRT. I can see how some 3D titles remain playable, but there are others in which it's just wild, especially when you run 240p titles in 480i (Sengoku Blade PS2 for example).
Do you have a preferred picture mode for 480i content?
nothing in general, really fiddling from game to game... I usually don't use the Mini for 480i.
I think I left V_SCALER set to 6 or 7. I seem to recall that a setting of 8 will blur the picture.
that's right, 8 blurs the vertical, so the combing's gone.
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BuckoA51
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by BuckoA51 »

nothing in general, really fiddling from game to game... I usually don't use the Mini for 480i.
With the exception of 240p games that run in 480i, right?
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister (now available !)

Post by Fudoh »

no more, those I run on the Pioneer PDP with it's magic deinterlacer. If Micomsoft gives me a single-field gamemode without the interpolation, I'll get back on the Mini.
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