XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Hamburglar]

Perhaps the interference is caused by the long wires you are using? Nevertheless I find this very interesting as I too am bothered by the vertical bars

The picture there from me is not of the Sony encoder wired up; it's of the stock encoder just moved to a different location to see if it got rid of the vertical bar (it did not).

[Konsolkongen]

Oh then it makes sense

[Seraphic]

Very sorry to hear about your problems with the Mini. it must be extremely frustrating

I haven't experienced anything like this myself, but have your tried pressing and holding the safety button on the remote when the unit is powered on?

http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/frame ... mote02.jpg

Got it working! Left it unplugged for the night and was able to switch it to DVI mode output and then held reset display button and it was outputting an image again.
Wonder how long it will work this time?

[Konsolkongen]

Nice! Let's keep our fingers crossed

[Hamburglar]

Sorry if things are getting a bit off topic but the flickering with the XRGB Mini was driving me insane, so I completely removed the stock SNES encoder and the Sony encoder I built, and tapped directly to RGB; nothing in between. The picture was dark and kind of smudged/streaky. Here is a pic I took:



I RGB modded my N64 with that Texas Instruments amp. Should I do the same thing here? Same resistor values? Only reason I am worrying it won't work is because a lack of an amp shouldn't be causing that horrible color streaking, should it? Look at all that red smeared all over the place!

Also, why does the XRGB Mini have this flickering issue? I understand adjusting A/D helps it, but my DVDO Edge never had that issue.

[Fudoh]

Also, why does the XRGB Mini have this flickering issue? I understand adjusting A/D helps it, but my DVDO Edge never had that issue.

because the Mini has a horribly designed low pass filter on the inputs.

[Ed Oscuro]

Quick update - anybody tried X68000 via this? I'm thinking that would be a non-issue for me but it would be nice to get that documented.

[Hamburglar]

Also, why does the XRGB Mini have this flickering issue? I understand adjusting A/D helps it, but my DVDO Edge never had that issue.

because the Mini has a horribly designed low pass filter on the inputs.

Not exactly sure what that means but is there something else I can buy to add in this chain to make that better?

[Konsolkongen]

I RGB modded my N64 with that Texas Instruments amp. Should I do the same thing here? Same resistor values? Only reason I am worrying it won't work is because a lack of an amp shouldn't be causing that horrible color streaking, should it? Look at all that red smeared all over the place!

Tapping the RGB lines directly from a MegaDrive 1 will also give some strange side effects a side from a much darker picture. Adding an amp to the lines solved it but it took a long time finding the right values.

Try the THS-amp if you feel like it. I'm sure you can make it work, but you may need to change the resistors many times before you find the right values

[Konsolkongen]

It looks like the pin marked "Burstflag" in this picture is the clock-input. On the MegaDrive 1 the Jailbar problem was solved by disconnecting this pin, although in some cases you would need to disconnect the pin on the VPD-end for it to work. Perhaps disconnecting it will solve the ghosting we are having on the consoles?
If this is clock then disabling it will remove all color from composite and S-video, but we don't care, do we?

[Hamburglar]

Is there any way to remove the low-pass filtering on the XRGB Mini? I don't see anything obvious in the menu.

[Fudoh]

Is there any way to remove the low-pass filtering on the XRGB Mini? I don't see anything obvious in the menu.

not there is not. The firmware versions up to 1.06 have a way better LPF setting for high-frequency noise. The LPF for lower frequencies differs with the picture settings. "Standard" filters pretty heavily. I'll request a manual LPF setting.

[Konsolkongen]

Was this problem introduced when they added the sync adjustment slider? In that case I would like to be able to turn that off too, since I have no use for it. Just using composite sync on all consoles seem to be a rocksolid solution so far.

[Fudoh]

Just using composite sync on all consoles seem to be a rocksolid solution so far.

then you haven't got a PC Engine

[Konsolkongen]

Not yet no. But I RGB modified a Core Grafx I think (the dark gray one) a few months ago. I used the NJM amp to amplify all color lines and the c.sync line as well. It worked perfectly, but I only had Final Soldier to test.

[Fudoh]

PCE on it's own is kinda fine, especially the Core or Core II, but the whole impedance gets messed up when you add a CD drive. Also the Core you modded will exhibit HF-noise with 1.07a.

[Konsolkongen]

[Thomago]

Hello!

First post here - I bought the Mini and just felt the urge to - well - vent my anger.

Info: I'm using firmware 1.07A. I tried 1.06 as well, but it didn't help with my problems.

Inputs:

1. This has no practical relevance for me, but it's worth telling: The S-Video input is complete garbage. The Mini generally applies some heavy LPF which makes all non-as-high-contrast parts of the picture look like something from an old VHS tape. Useless.

2. The Component input is garbage.
2.a) The Mini doen't seem to be able to process the input signal's complete color bandwith which results in heavy colour banding (that's especially noticable with the PS2*) as whell es heavy flickering.
2.b) With certain materials (for example this THX test pattern http://imgur.com/MbZDA) the Mini seems compelled to switch its LPF on and off again and again in darker areas. Very annoying.

3. The RGB input is pretty problematic.
3.a) It's sharp but not as pixel perfect as the Component input.
3.b) I noticed the same thing as Riholay with my PS2's 288p/240p RGB output, however it's only noticable in saturated areas of the picture. Using the same RGB cable (IXOS XPP151 - I think it doesn't get any better than that) with my PSone results in a perfect 288p/240p picture, however the 576i/488i picture is pretty noisy.
3.c) Depending on what the PS2 / the PSone are showing there are diffuse "traces" in the overscan area of the picture. Probably this isn't the Mini's fault, but it's certainly annoying.

All in all the quality of the Mini's anlaog inputs is just plain bad. Every standard Flatscreen-TV does much better.

*I beg to defer with Fudoh: The PS2 isn't at fault here, it's component signal is as good as it gets. It's just that the Mini's Component input sucks.

General problems:

1. The deinterlacing presets are a joke. Let's take a look:
STANDARD - neutral colours, heavy LPF
GAME_1 - neutral colours, heavy LPF, only suitable for 288p/240p
GAME_2 - non-neutral colours, no LPF, only suitable for 288p/240p
FRAMEMEISTER - neutral colours, no LPF, only suitable for 288p/240p, forced scanlines
MOVIE- neutral colours, no LPF, artificial noise
ANIME - non-neutral colours, no LPF
NATURAL - non-neutral colours, no LPF
PICTURE - neutral colours, no LPF, no deinterlacing
Great. Really great.
2. Switching modes/inputs/outputs takes an eternity.
3. No automatic 50/60 Hz output switching.
4. Automatic aspect ratio recognition doesn't work.
5. Many settings/functions don't work as they should.
6. Handling of the Mini is a nightmare. I never saw a menu system that messed up.
7. A huge load of other tidbits.

I really really hope that Micomsoft will adress these problems. In it's current state the Mini isn't recommendable imho.

[Konsolkongen]

It's been a while since the last firmware was released. I hope that means they are devoting their time to fix a lot of the problems for the next update

[Fudoh]

*I beg to defer with Fudoh: The PS2 isn't at fault here, it's component signal is as good as it gets. It's just that the Mini's Component input sucks.

I would agree on the general quality on the PS2's component signal. It's pretty perfect, but unfortunately it's a bit noisy and while some processors have no problem whatsoever with this, others like the Mini pick this up and visibly pronounce it more than neccessary.

Do you have some examples where one might see what you mean for 2a and 3a ? Especially 3a would be interesting, since I really don't see the difference.

I would suggest that you get another processor for 480i/576i material.

[Thomago]

2a)

Let's see ...
PS2 Component: http://imgur.com/aUoCL
PS2 RGB: http://imgur.com/E1ejb

Instead of smooth color gradients Component just gives you an "approximation" by means of flickering. I could take a video of it, but well - it's obvious.

3a)
Unfortunately I wasn't able to take a photograph of this, but just go to your PS2's memory card menu and look for yourself:
In RGB mode with [H-SCALER = 5] (--> maximum sharpness) you will notice that the rightmost column of grey pixels is darker than the column of pixels to its left - there's a gradient between the bright part of the picture and the black overscan area.
However in Component mode [H-SCALER = 5] (maximum sharpness - btw WHY isn't that the default setting?) there's no gradient at all; the picture is pixel perfect.

Needlessly to say this applies to other areas of the picture as well. Just pay attention - you will definitely see that the RGB picture is a tad blurrier.

Also i managed too take a photograph of what I mentioned in 3.c): http://imgur.com/7NPha
Really annying, makes RGB mode borderline unusable in my regards.

"I would suggest that you get another processor for 480i/576i material."
Erm ... 240p/288p materials suffer from exactly the same problems.

[Fudoh]

2a: Thanks for the pictures. The banding is obvious, you're right. Can you tell me which title this is ?

3a: you might try to adjust the skew setting to get rid of this or minimize the effect. I've complained about this A LOT with component sources. In my eyes, it's a bug with the scaling engine when used with 480i/p sources. Makes me wonder though if you can actually see the same effect with 240p sources. With 240p sources you might turn up the the sharpness to 1 to counter such effects. Not with 480i though.

3c: I've seen this on the top of the screen for several sources, but usually only when the brightness is set too high.

"I would suggest that you get another processor for 480i/576i material."
Erm ... 240p/288p materials suffer from exactly the same problems.

yes, but you'll learn to live with it, since the the quality with 240p is otherwise a hundred times better than with any other processor. There are other processors which are excellent with 480i though.

[Thomago]

2a: Thanks for the pictures. The banding is obvious, you're right. Can you tell me which title this is ?

It's Shadow Hearts 2: Covenant. The banding is more obvious with darker graphics - this title has them However you can also see the banding fairly clear in the PS2's memory card menu; the grey gradiant there suffers from banding as well, although to a lesser extend.

3a: you might try to adjust the skew setting to get rid of this or minimize the effect.

Thank you, that helped!

3c: I've seen this on the top of the screen for several sources, but usually only when the brightness is set too high.

The problem is: The brightness isn't set to high. I set the brightness so that the overscan area of the PS2 is as black as it gets. However if there's a very bright or saturated picture, the overscan area suddenly brightens up. Of course I could further decrease the brightness, but that would lead to a picture that's too dark in general.
Very annoying. Reminds me of my PDI Sweetspot's RGB input. Didn't use it because of that.

yes, but you'll learn to live with it, since the the quality with 240p is otherwise a hundred times better than with any other processor. There are other processors which are excellent with 480i though.

Unfortunately I'm not willing to buy another processor for the time being. I don't have that much money.

[Fudoh]

The problem is: The brightness isn't set to high. I set the brightness so that the overscan area of the PS2 is as black as it gets. However if there's a very bright or saturated picture, the overscan area suddenly brightens up. Of course I could further decrease the brightness, but that would lead to a picture that's too dark in general.

interesting. Never seen it or anything like it with PS2. Brightness on my setup is set to just borderline. A click below black turns dark grey. I'll pay attention to it next time. Wondering if different PS2 revisions show the effect differently ?

However you can also see the banding fairly clear in the PS2's memory card menu; the grey gradiant there suffers from banding as well, although to a lesser extend.

I'll check it out.

[BuckoA51]

1. This has no practical relevance for me, but it's worth telling: The S-Video input is complete garbage.

I've used the C64 with the Mini's S-Video input and found it to be excellent and very sharp, not seen any of the problems you described with S-Video, I've not updated to the latest firmware though.

I thought the Mini's 480i handling was supposed to be really good, or is that just for pseudo 240p titles?

[Fudoh]

It is - especially from a deinterlacing point of view, but as you know yourself, the Mini requires fine tuning for each signal. I haven't looked into the banding issues yet, since I haven't noticed them yet on my setup.

[BuckoA51]

I've not played with it much for 480i things myself, be nice if we can get some settings down in the wiki for PS2 480i games and the like.

[Thomago]

I've used the C64 with the Mini's S-Video input and found it to be excellent and very sharp, not seen any of the problems you described with S-Video, I've not updated to the latest firmware though.

Mhhhmm ... the C64's colour palette is fairly limited - perhaps the mini recognizes every edge as "high contrast" due to that, so that the LPF doesn't affect the picture negatively? Or it's the firmware ...

It is - especially from a deinterlacing point of view, but as you know yourself, the Mini requires fine tuning for each signal.

Unfortunately some really important settings aren't available, for example the LPF filter. I'd really like to deactivate this bugger in general. Every source I use would profit from that.

Another thing:

I noticed that 240p and 480i respectively 288p and 576i can be configured separately when using the Component input. The RGB input however doesn't allow that (well at least i seemed that way - can't try it right now). Big problem for me, since I'd like to have [V-SCALE = 6] in 240p/280p titles and [V-SCALE = 1-5] in 480i/576i titles.

[Fudoh]

Both manual LPF control as well as seperate settings for all RGB resolutions are on the wishlist already.

[Thomago]

Both manual LPF control as well as seperate settings for all RGB resolutions are on the wishlist already.

Huh? Are you talking about some kind official whishlist? Didn't know something like that existed.

([I hope something that prevents said colour banding from happening makes it to the whishlist someday!)