XRGB-mini Framemeister

[BuckoA51]

That's great they finally worked that out then, though still lots harder than for a NTSC model, but yeah, failing an RGB mod S-video is a big improvement on composite.

[Konsolkongen]

Does this new RGB mod also work for ALL newer versions of the JAP and US consoles?

[speedlolita]

I don't see why not. Don't quote me on that though.

[Riholay]

Hey guys, sorry to bother you again with my learning of the mini there is one last issue I have with my super nintendo (euro 50Hz RGB): I got kind of black waves everywhere in the background and the mini emphasis this a lot unfortunately. I need to manually set the H scaler to 14 (max limit before it gets to blurry) to have it reduced.



What could cause this? Did someone had the same issue and manage to solve ideally with particular mini settings?

Thank you very much again!

[BuckoA51]

Looks similar to the pattern I used to get on my PAL SNES, the only solution I found was to switch to a raw sync cable on a Super Famicom. However, you could also try a different power supply too as I've found the SNES to be particularly prone to power line interference.

[Frerix]

Hello everyone, a long time lurker here! I'm about to bite the bullet and I'm just about to buy a Framemeister!
I've been eyeballing it for the last few months and I've actually read this whole topic over the last few days :O

My current setup:

• NES Front loader PAL - RCA
  SNES PAL 50/60hz/SNES CHIP01 PAL non-mod - RGB (Super Everdrive)
  N64 PAL - S-video
  NGC PAL - RGB
  Wii - Component
  
  SMS1 - RGB
  Genesis 1 and PAL Megadrive 1/2 - RGB (Everdrive MD)
  Saturn Model 2 PAL 50/60hz / Model 1 PAL unmodded- RGB (Racketboy modchip soon)
  Dreamcast PAL - Composite (Internal VGA mod soon)
  
  PC Engine (White) +Interface unit/CD rom2 - Composite (Turbo Everdrive soon)
  
  PS1 PAL "audiophile version" with unknown modchip - RGB
  PS2 PAL slim/fat - Component
  PS3 Slim - HDMI
  
  Xbox 360 Elite - HDMI

Eventually all my system from NES/SMS to Saturn will be either NTSC or 50/60hz modded PAL. (PS1/ Dreamcast and higher won't need a 50/60hz mod to display 60hz as this is dictated by the sofware)
I have some experience with soldering as I've been modding various consoles myself. For example, I can solder SCART RGB cables myself.

Anyhow, I still have some small questions left (even after reading through 73 pages )
1. Are the experiences with 50/60hz modded PAL SNES/Saturn and Framemeister acceptable? Or is there simply no way to get the a level of performance similar to a real NTSC system?
2. What if I'd get sync issues with a console? Would a Sync Strike/Sync Cleaner be needed or could I solve this by adjusting the existing RGB cables?

Thanks in advance! (Sorry if I'm annoying everyone with my questions!)

[Fudoh]

1. Are the experiences with 50/60hz modded PAL SNES/Saturn and Framemeister acceptable?

If you a few posts above, you'll see that some people have problems with PAL SNES units, even when running on 60Hz.

Or is there simply no way to get the a level of performance similar to a real NTSC system?

I think it really depends on the particular system in question. In general modded PAL systems are not a no-go, they just simply tend to cause more problems with NTSC ones - see the wavy interference on the SNES above. You can still get lucky though and have a flawlessly performing setup.

2. What if I'd get sync issues with a console? Would a Sync Strike/Sync Cleaner be needed or could I solve this by adjusting the existing RGB cables?

A sync cleaner is good step to bring PAL systems up to a "NTSC-level". Not all systems offer raw sync out of the box, so you might eventually need a LM1881 for some.

Get back to me once you get around RGB modding your PCE. As pointed out earlier, the white PCE/CD combo is a real bitch, Dropouts on earlier Framemeister FWs and heavy noise on the newest one....

[Riholay]

Looks similar to the pattern I used to get on my PAL SNES, the only solution I found was to switch to a raw sync cable on a Super Famicom.

I did not understood that part very well is a raw sync cable something I can buy or do I need to do it myself? It´s not clear to me if you actually fix the issue on the pal system or stopped using it for the SFC instead.

@frerix for various reasons, my n64, pal snes and saturn (modded as yours) are the one giving me desappointing results with the mini in hdmi output. See my posts above as Fudoh suggested.

[BuckoA51]

I think it really depends on the particular system in question. In general modded PAL systems are not a no-go, they just simply tend to cause more problems with NTSC ones - see the wavy interference on the SNES above. You can still get lucky though and have a flawlessly performing setup.

There's also the stutter issue due to out of spec vertical refresh. 60hz modded Megadrive is particularly prone to this, only way to get smooth scrolling is with a true NTSC machine or by modding your system to have both NTSC and PAL timing crystals. I believe I've seen Saturn affected by it too. Your mileage may vary of course depending on what display you are using.

I did not understood that part very well is a raw sync cable something I can buy or do I need to do it myself? It´s not clear to me if you actually fix the issue on the pal system or stopped using it for the SFC instead.

I ditched the PAL SNES and switched to a SFC, you can't get raw sync cables for the PAL SNES because it doesn't output raw sync (probably could with a mod, but my soldering skills are non-existent).

[Riholay]

That's a bad news indeed . Thanks for all the info Bucko. I'll try to find alternative solutions for this issue, sorry for having be a little bit out of topic here. it's just I never noticed this before using the mini.

[BuckoA51]

Definitely try another PSU and try the SNES directly to the wall before you spend money replacing consoles or anything like that.

[Frerix]

1. Are the experiences with 50/60hz modded PAL SNES/Saturn and Framemeister acceptable?

If you a few posts above, you'll see that some people have problems with PAL SNES units, even when running on 60Hz.

Or is there simply no way to get the a level of performance similar to a real NTSC system?

I think it really depends on the particular system in question. In general modded PAL systems are not a no-go, they just simply tend to cause more problems with NTSC ones - see the wavy interference on the SNES above. You can still get lucky though and have a flawlessly performing setup.

2. What if I'd get sync issues with a console? Would a Sync Strike/Sync Cleaner be needed or could I solve this by adjusting the existing RGB cables?

A sync cleaner is good step to bring PAL systems up to a "NTSC-level". Not all systems offer raw sync out of the box, so you might eventually need a LM1881 for some.

Get back to me once you get around RGB modding your PCE. As pointed out earlier, the white PCE/CD combo is a real bitch, Dropouts on earlier Framemeister FWs and heavy noise on the newest one....

Thanks for clearing that up!
I found a PAL NGC RGB cable that has almost the same pinout as an NTSC SNES RGB cable.
My NGC cable has the following layout

(it does not have the 75 ohm resistor on mine)

This is the layout of an NTSC SNES RGB cable


If I'd change the pinout to be the same as the NTSC SNES RGB cable, this would work. Am I correct?
(Which pin on the SCART is composite sync?)

And another question;
If I'd want to use a Sync Strike in combination with my Framemeister, could I use the screw terminals to run cables from the Sync Strike to a Male SCART connector?
So for example; SFC - RGB w c.sync > Sync Strike (with SCART output)> EURO Scart to 8pin mini din > Framemeister
Or is there an alternative way to connect a Sync Strike to a Framemeister?

Many thanks in advance! I really want to contribute something when I get my Framemeister.
I'm trying to replace PAL consoles with NTSC consoles, but if I get my Framemeister it would be likely that my setup still consist of mainly PAL consoles. (It takes some time to find all those consoles )
So when I get my Framemeister I will do a test run with my PAL consoles and show you guys the results.

[Konsolkongen]

The EU SNES does NOT have the same AV pinout as the US/JAP. That means the EU SNES doesn't have C.sync on the AV-out, but uses that pin for 12V instead. That means if you were to get a C.sync cable you would run 12V through the sync line and straight into the Mini, which could harm the RGB input.
http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

To get c.sync from your SNES you should cut the composite video trace (pin 9 on the GameSX page) and solder a wire from the RGB encoder's C.sync output to pin 9. That way you can use the same cable as you do now, but with C.sync instead. I have done this myself.

C.sync in the Scart plug uses the same pin as composite video = pin 20. So you can't have both at the same time

[BuckoA51]

Also, rather than obsessing over the Sync Strike there are sync cleaners designed specially for the Mini, retro_console_accessories on e-bay makes them for instance.

[Frerix]

@ Konsolkongen

The modified NGC cable would be used with a SFC. Sorry for not being clear :p

@BuckoA51

the adapter that retro_console_accessories sells are only meant to be used with NTSC systems. So if I wanted to use a PAL system (say PAL SNES for example) with this adapter, would a PAL RGB cable with a cut 12V line be accepted? I really don't want to harm my XRGB :p

[BuckoA51]

the adapter that retro_console_accessories sells are only meant to be used with NTSC systems. So if I wanted to use a PAL system (say PAL SNES for example) with this adapter, would a PAL RGB cable with a cut 12V line be accepted? I really don't want to harm my XRGB :p

Won't make any difference, no need to cut the 12V either (in fact doing so might stop it working with the sync booster). She normally sells an adaptor that gets power from the Mini rather than the SCART which is better as badly wired SCART cables don't always give enough voltage on their signal pins.

[Frerix]

the adapter that retro_console_accessories sells are only meant to be used with NTSC systems. So if I wanted to use a PAL system (say PAL SNES for example) with this adapter, would a PAL RGB cable with a cut 12V line be accepted? I really don't want to harm my XRGB :p

Won't make any difference, no need to cut the 12V either (in fact doing so might stop it working with the sync booster). She normally sells an adaptor that gets power from the Mini rather than the SCART which is better as badly wired SCART cables don't always give enough voltage on their signal pins.

Oh. As a PAL SNES runs 12v over the line that an NTSC system uses for c.sync I thought it would harm the system.
Anyhow, thanks for the answer

[BuckoA51]

Oh. As a PAL SNES runs 12v over the line that an NTSC system uses for c.sync I thought it would harm the system.

Yes, but c.sync (where available) isn't connected used for sync in a standard SCART cable. Composite video is used for sync. In the diagram you can see the +12v goes to pin 8, which is Status & Aspect Ratio up. The mini doesn't use this pin but the sync cleaner may use the voltage from here to power itself.

[Frerix]

Oh. As a PAL SNES runs 12v over the line that an NTSC system uses for c.sync I thought it would harm the system.

Yes, but c.sync (where available) isn't connected used for sync in a standard SCART cable. Composite video is used for sync. In the diagram you can see the +12v goes to pin 8, which is Status & Aspect Ratio up. The mini doesn't use this pin but the sync cleaner may use the voltage from here to power itself.

You're right. I mixed things up :p

[guldberget]

Hi guys

I've been playing around with the mini w/ fw 1.07a and my jp saturn hst-0014 with an rgb cable. I initially had alot of problems getting any picture at all through the mini and rgb directly to my tv caused the sync to drop out alot. It wasn't until I turned off auto sync and manually upped the sync level in the mini to 11 or 12 (default was 9) that I got a stable picture (I'm using 720p output). I really think that there should be ways to get a better picture than I am getting though (I'm playing Soukyogurentai but that might not be a good reference game). So, what modes and tweaked settings are you saturn owners using on the mini? I figured I'd ask so I could start from other peoples good settings and then maybe adjust some things to compensate for my shitty tv

Thanks!

[Fudoh]

Turning up the sync level is ok, but it should not be neccessary on the Saturn. Don't switch off the auto sync. You'll get studder and the input lag gets higher. Which model is the HST-0014 ? Is that the early "white" one (well actually light grey compared to the pure white models later on). I only recently purchased one of those and I can give it a try a sometime.

[guldberget]

Turning up the sync level is ok, but it should not be neccessary on the Saturn. Don't switch off the auto sync. You'll get studder and the input lag gets higher. Which model is the HST-0014 ? Is that the early "white" one (well actually light grey compared to the pure white models later on). I only recently purchased one of those and I can give it a try a sometime.

Yep, that's probably the one. I would be interesting to hear your experiences with that one (according to segaretro there were two further revisions of the purely jp white console, hst-0017 and hst-0019). Thanks for the tip on auto sync. I'll give that a try together with some try and error to see what helps. I'm not ruling out that my rgb cables are of low quality either.

[Seraphic]

I seem to always have problems with my Mini!
It works fine for a few days then it stops working then goes back to working after awhile.

On 1.7a firmware and the unit will power on, find the output link, but will not seem to output anything to my T.V (can't access menu and input button on unit does nothing).
The unit will also not lock onto input source. Tried PS2 with component->d-terminal cables (PS2 YPbPr mode) and PS2 RGB cables (PS2 RGB mode).

Any thoughts?

[pyrotek85]

I seem to always have problems with my Mini!
It works fine for a few days then it stops working then goes back to working after awhile.

On 1.7a firmware and the unit will power on, find the output link, but will not seem to output anything to my T.V (can't access menu and input button on unit does nothing).
The unit will also not lock onto input source. Tried PS2 with component->d-terminal cables (PS2 YPbPr mode) and PS2 RGB cables (PS2 RGB mode).

Any thoughts?

Did you have those problems prior to using 1.7a? If you didn't, I'd try to downgrade first.

[Seraphic]

I seem to always have problems with my Mini!
It works fine for a few days then it stops working then goes back to working after awhile.

On 1.7a firmware and the unit will power on, find the output link, but will not seem to output anything to my T.V (can't access menu and input button on unit does nothing).
The unit will also not lock onto input source. Tried PS2 with component->d-terminal cables (PS2 YPbPr mode) and PS2 RGB cables (PS2 RGB mode).

Any thoughts?

Did you have those problems prior to using 1.7a? If you didn't, I'd try to downgrade first.

I was on 1.5 before and it was still not getting video input or outputting video.
It still had power light on with output link light on.

[Konsolkongen]

Very sorry to hear about your problems with the Mini. it must be extremely frustrating

I haven't experienced anything like this myself, but have your tried pressing and holding the safety button on the remote when the unit is powered on?

http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/frame ... mote02.jpg

[Hamburglar]

Hey guys, sorry to bother you again with my learning of the mini there is one last issue I have with my super nintendo (euro 50Hz RGB): I got kind of black waves everywhere in the background and the mini emphasis this a lot unfortunately. I need to manually set the H scaler to 14 (max limit before it gets to blurry) to have it reduced.



What could cause this? Did someone had the same issue and manage to solve ideally with particular mini settings?

Thank you very much again!

I had this exact problem when using a cheap SCART switch and/or a cheap SNES SCART cable. As soon as I bought an official Nintendo SFC RGB scart cable it went away!

Anyway, now I have a bit of a problem. A while back I had commented that I noticed a lot of flickering (or as I called it "cloudy" or "smokey" effect) on flat colors on the XRGB Mini. Some of you correctly guessed that I needed to adjust the A/D adjustment in the "Special" menu. That worked, but as some of you guessed, the effect would just show up on different colors instead. It wasn't a big deal though; I was able to live with it.

Now to get rid of the vertical translucent bar in the SNES, I did the encoder replacement, and put a Sony encoder into my SNES. The picture is super sharp, nice colors, and guess what? The ugly vertical bar is gone. However, the above problem with the XRGB Mini is now there x100.



I took a picture of the most obvious place you see it, but I see it in the white clouds and blue background of Super Mario Bros 2 in All-Stars no matter how much I try to adjust it. Don't get me wrong; adjusting A/D levels in the special menu helps/makes it worse, but even on the best setting it's super noticeable. What is causing this? Why would the Sony encoder improve everything else, but make this worse?

I am trying to figure out how to get the best SNES picture ever (especially since I learned some 1CHIP-02 and 1CHIP-03 systems still have the bar) and this problem is putting a huge damper on things! Thanks!

[Fudoh]

Have you tried a different processing mode ? My SFC shows some noise on most modes, except for "natural". And if you decrese the brightness to a proper level, it might help cover what's left in terms of noise.

I just got a japanese 1Chip which has a very slightly visible bar left. Can you give me some details on the encoder exchange ? Is there a thread on this somewhere ? Which decoded did you use ?

[Hamburglar]

Have you tried a different processing mode ? My SFC shows some noise on most modes, except for "natural". And if you decrese the brightness to a proper level, it might help cover what's left in terms of noise.

I just got a japanese 1Chip which has a very slightly visible bar left. Can you give me some details on the encoder exchange ? Is there a thread on this somewhere ? Which decoded did you use ?

Hey Fudoh. The encoder exchange is a bit of a process. I can mail you an encoder if you need one since you have been so helpful to me in the past. Here is the guide I used:

http://16bitgamer.forumotion.ca/t31-sne ... a2075#1498
(I am the user "OnyxDomain" in that thread).

I did mess with brightness/contrast to no avail. Like I said, this issue exists on my RGB NES and my stock SNES, but something about this encoder makes the problem pretty much impossible to get rid of. It's bad enough I'd actually prefer the vertical bar (which is saying a lot since it drives me nuts).

Perhaps there's something about this Sony encoder that makes whatever this A/D conversion problem is more extreme?

[Konsolkongen]

Perhaps the interference is caused by the long wires you are using? Nevertheless I find this very interesting as I too am bothered by the vertical bars