DoDonPachi Resurrection - Steam Edition

[neorocker]

Do they live in a place without broadband internet? Is this resistance to digital distribution? Help me understand.

Combination of the two for some, i think. People like physical, too.

also because if steam vanishes, whenever that may be, they won't be possible to redownload the product unless every game got a patch before then. essentially creates software that must be cracked to be archived. DRM-free would just allow backups to be made and transferred more easily.

[soprano1]

Do they live in a place without broadband internet? Is this resistance to digital distribution? Help me understand.

Combination of the two for some, i think. People like physical, too.

also because if steam vanishes, whenever that may be, they won't be possible to redownload the product unless every game got a patch before then. essentially creates software that must be cracked to be archived. DRM-free would just allow backups to be made and transferred more easily.

Ah yes, forgot about that one. One of the reasons i like GOG.

[shoryusatsu999]

Do they live in a place without broadband internet? Is this resistance to digital distribution? Help me understand.

Combination of the two for some, i think. People like physical, too.

also because if steam vanishes, whenever that may be, they won't be possible to redownload the product unless every game got a patch before then. essentially creates software that must be cracked to be archived. DRM-free would just allow backups to be made and transferred more easily.

Pretty sure that's standard operating procedure with digital distribution, though. Even with GOG selling only DRM-free games, it's not going to be possible to redownload games from them if they end up shutting down, and I have a feeling that most people would rather simply not play the game than go the piracy, backup or abandonware routes.

[Durandal]

I have a feeling that most people would rather simply not play the game than go the piracy, backup or abandonware routes.

That doesn't stop anyone from playing games via emulation. Games for many consoles are no longer sold (legally), so those routes end up being the only option.

[qmish]

Why do you all talk this again... about digital etc.


Eh, i'll better say that silghouettes of fallen bosses in DFK are beautiful disappearing in the skies

[Elixir]

Thanks Cagar and others who have given me a bit of backup here. Much appreciated. I think we represent everyone who has ever spent time on this forum and then left in disgust, only diff is that we are prepared to speak up about it.

Just because someone agrees with you doesn't mean you're right. Cagar was also one of the only people who actually liked how they randomly removed a scoring mechanic from Mushihimesama's Steam release. People complained on the Steam forums. And it was reimplemented. You know your argument is complete trash when Cagar is agreeing with it.

I think it's funny being called arrogant for saying how I think things should be, by a bunch of dudes who spend their life criticising developers' games for not being as difficult as they think they should be ^_^

Nobody is doing this. A port of a port of a poorly received game is not going to repopulate the genre. In fact, the "we want Cave's games on Steam!" crowd aren't the people that are going to help the release of the game. The people who have played the PCB and 360 ports and have experience with them are far more likely to contribute because experience is greater than knowledge.

The FGC is instructive again here. 3rd Strike was made in the exact same arcade era as Garou MOW, Battle Garrega, Dodonpachi, DOJ and Ketsui.

1996-2003 was not an "era" by any sense of the definition of the word. Garegga and DOJ are on the opposite ends of this timeframe and they're both pretty complex for scoring, while the two games you've listed are from 1999. Also, the FGC is not instructive. They're entirely different genres with completely different players.

Fighting games:

- have a loose vs. cpu game
- strong vs. netplay game
- very strong vs. player game
- require periodical updates
- require players
- require domestic scenes for players
- have short lifespans
- rely on player feedback in order to improve the games
- are competitive oriented

Shmups:

- have a strong vs. cpu game
- have no netplay
- have no vs. player game
- almost never receive updates
- do not require players
- do not require scenes
- have indefinite lifespans
- rely on player feedback in order to improve the games
- are not competitive oriented

Shmup releases are single entities while fighting games are player dependent ongoing entities. Just like any other game which has an online multiplayer mode that creates an online experience different every time, fighting games are accessible to everyone because you're only as strong as your opponent. Losing is a form of improving, but the diversity in matches means the longevity of them lasts longer than shmups do because they're unique. The trade-off, however, is that if these players don't exist, you literally cannot play the game. No scene, no games. Shmups are only as unique as the player can make them.

The FGC have long ago come to terms with the fact that 3rd Strike and Garou MOW are classic games with amazing mechanics but they are too hard to be accessible. Capcom and (to a lesser extent) SNK have since made their games easier to play without sacrificing depth, and have reaped the reward with a thriving FG community who fully support each new release.

This is nonsense. This is like saying that Garegga cannot be played by newbies because they don't understand how to control rank. They don't have to. You could 2-ALL Ketsui without ever having looked at a single piece of information about the game online, much less talked about it. If I wanted to play 3s or Garou, I would have to a) find someone in New Zealand or Australia to play with, b) only improve to a relative skill ceiling between both of us and c) be completely shit out of luck when I don't find anyone. These games are inaccessible while in contrast, anyone in the world can get a WR at any shmup regardless of their location. Oh no, I might have to buy a JP PS2 (which cost, like, $20 now) or a JP 360 (which costs, again, $20 now). If a person is interested they'll come.

Cave have also tried to make the games more accessible to newcomers. In fact, DFK is a good example of it. It alienated the existing fanbase because nobody was expecting bullet eating, hyper canceling, and autobombing. People were expecting difficulty to the likes of DOJ - is SDOJ not telling enough of this? So you either piss off existing players in an attempt to entice new players in, or you piss off new players by making the games too hard. Which is it? And the reason players support (for example) Blazblue updates every 7 months is because players move on so they have to. Nobody wants to play against broken Arakunes/Valkenhayns/Kokonoes forever.

I get that you don't need human opponents for shmups, but is that really an excuse for refusing to move with the times and get behind more modern games with broader appeal, not to mention people who want to play them?

What you're looking for is some sort of official release formality which doesn't exist here. Maybe check the shmups twitter archive for release info (and don't forget to follow!).

Your form of "constructive feedback" is also wrong, constructive feedback isn't overly positive or overly negative. In first year of business they'll teach you that any feedback is good feedback, but you'll typically find people giving advice can be taken seriously depending on what they're saying.

One last thing, the "math" you gave does not apply - MOSS didn't care about playerbase or potential sales figures when they decided to release Raiden V exclusively on the Xbox One. Doujin devs don't create shmups and release them at Comiket for the sake of profit. If you think people make shmups for a sake of profit you're definitely in the wrong genre. If you think you're ever going to be rich or famous out of this genre you should look elsewhere.

Anyway, you need to give up this whole fighting vs. shooting game thing. It's silly. It doesn't work, they're different genres and have different players. They work differently, and their results are different. That's why you're not being taken seriously. Nobody bothered to take the time to tell you why so here it is.

[Bananamatic]

how they randomly removed a scoring mechanic from Mushihimesama's Steam release

I've said this a million times but powershot isn't a scoring mechanic and they didn't remove it, they merely disabled a button
you could still work around it externally and have it work like before

[Cagar]

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[Glick]

Do they live in a place without broadband internet? Is this resistance to digital distribution? Help me understand.

Combination of the two for some, i think. People like physical, too.

also because if steam vanishes, whenever that may be, they won't be possible to redownload the product unless every game got a patch before then. essentially creates software that must be cracked to be archived. DRM-free would just allow backups to be made and transferred more easily.

Steam actually includes a failsafe for this that actually does patch everything to essentially be DRM-free in this case.

That's not to say there aren't scenarios where the company evaporates and doesn't bother to do this, but it's not something most people need to worry about, as it's not particularly likely.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Steam is unnecessary shite.

Ugh, I'm probably going to regret sparking this, but why does a small minority of people hate Steam? I don't get it. You use it to buy and play games, it's the software version of a console. You can't play console games without turning on the console, so how is this any different? We have ridiculous parallel-architecture BIPS CPUs and multiple gigs of RAM so computer resources are a non-issue. Do they live in a place without broadband internet? Is this resistance to digital distribution? Help me understand.

Well that's the problem. The platform is PC and not Steam. Steam is an extra bit of software you need to authenticate and/or purchase the game. Steam games are equivalent only to xbox live/PSN downloaded software.

It isn't against digital distribution it's against DRM. A DRM free installer or disc of a PC game is equal to (or better here, as it has extra content) my 360 copy of DFK. If my 360 dies after xbox live gets turned off for it, I can still play my disc on another 360. If my PC dies after Steam gets turned off/becomes something else/stops supporting older games, the game is gone. I then have to search out a cracked copy or hope a newer platform re-releases it.

While I will concede to Steam purchases where there is no reasonable alternative (Mushihimesama for example), it is unnecessary and I refuse to champion something that gives me extra hoops and restrictions for owning games.

System + disc/cart/installer = play game. It is that simple so why mess with it? It's backwards to put up more barriers and the cult of Steam is one of the most bizarre things about modern gaming.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Steam is unnecessary shite.

Ugh, I'm probably going to regret sparking this, but why does a small minority of people hate Steam?

snip

Yes, all of this. That, and Steam is burdened down with all that social bullshit functionality, which exists to track your gameplay habits and thus further market to you and so forth. Having data on your customers is a Big Deal when you're selling products.

GoG is so much cleaner. You buy the game, you get the executable, it works, it doesn't need to phone home like a lost puppy, and you don't need to have a game launcher running in the background purely to play the game.

Steam actually includes a failsafe for this that actually does patch everything to essentially be DRM-free in this case.

They can promise that all they like, but the moment Steam gets bought by another company or goes bankrupt (however unlikely those scenarios are) there's nothing that will hold them to that promise.

[Cagar]

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[Firehawke]

Guys, the point is moot. The basic Steam protection is broken and tools to run basically any Steam game already exist. The point of the DRM is to help keep honest men honest-- same as a lock on a store's front door. It may not keep the dedicated criminal out, but it keeps casual piracy down to a minimum while being as unobtrusive as possible.

If Steam were to shut down tomorrow, the tools are ALREADY THERE to continue to use your content on your PC.

[Shepardus]

It's also extremely good for multiplayer games; you don't need to create an account to every single game and add/invite your friends there, your steam account works universally between games and (usually) stores your progress and friends.

This is the most convenient part of Steam for me. For shmups it also means you can sync scores more easily and have a single leaderboard entry even when moving between machines. The downside is that it's a pain if you want to close your account for a particular game and start a new one, which I'm guessing is a pretty niche use case (unless you're doing it because you got banned from a game, in which case you shouldn't be able to do that anyway).

I don't think Steam DRM is akin to a lock on a store, because the lock doesn't apply after you've already bought the item from the store. They're not going to recall everything bought from the store in the event that it shuts down. While the likelihood of Steam shutting down in the near future is exceedingly slim and to be honest I don't think I would even lose much of value if it did, others are concerned about that possibility.

I myself prefer DRM-free releases because I don't like launching Steam or keeping it running (my computer can handle it, I just don't like keeping gaming-related stuff running if I'm not playing games). Also, until some time ago Steam didn't support installing games to directories other than its own directory which didn't mesh well with my organizational scheme. Anyway, many DRM-free releases nowadays, such as the upcoming Blue Revolver, come with Steam keys so you're not losing anything.

There are other ways to get in newcomers. And this is my personal opinion (!!!!), but making the games easier is probably one of the last things I'd do, because shoot em' up gameplay is incredibly boring when it's easy. It's too static for casuals.

I'm just going to quote this before it gets lost in the Steam argument (it'll probably get lost anyway), but I agree that shmup developers have generally struggled to make their games fun outside of their difficulty, and that's a big problem. Oftentimes I see fun games that only stand up because they're difficult, and if you make them easy (e.g. through a "novice" mode) they become boring because the only thing that was fun about them was the challenge. I hesitate to say that this is inherent to the genre, because I've seen fun and not fun games on both sides of the difficulty spectrum, but I do think difficulty has a real tendency to be used as a crutch in this genre and it's something that doesn't get enough attention (by which I mean it deserves a separate thread).

[Bananamatic]

I like how this thread is complaining about steam while the garegga thread is complaining about digital releases

[Shepardus]

I like how this thread is complaining about steam while the garegga thread is complaining about digital releases

All we need now is a thread complaining about physical releases. Maybe that can go in the DBCS thread now that they've announced a physical PS4 release.

[Emuser]

I like how the farm is now a place to complain about the platforms games get released on instead of the actual game itself. If the emulation on the steam release is poor though then that would make sense. The game isn't even out yet and I have to admit it's been pretty entertaining so far seeing people react to some facts that shouldn't come as any surprise in the year 2016.

[trap15]

CAVE ports aren't emulation aside from XBLA Guwange and Instant Brain DoDonPachi (and coming soon: PSN Dangun Feveron). Which is why they're not going to ever be 100% perfect to the PCB.

[AxelMill]

There are other ways to get in newcomers. And this is my personal opinion (!!!!), but making the games easier is probably one of the last things I'd do, because shoot em' up gameplay is incredibly boring when it's easy. It's too static for casuals.

I'm just going to quote this before it gets lost in the Steam argument (it'll probably get lost anyway), but I agree that shmup developers have generally struggled to make their games fun outside of their difficulty, and that's a big problem. Oftentimes I see fun games that only stand up because they're difficult, and if you make them easy (e.g. through a "novice" mode) they become boring because the only thing that was fun about them was the challenge. I hesitate to say that this is inherent to the genre, because I've seen fun and not fun games on both sides of the difficulty spectrum, but I do think difficulty has a real tendency to be used as a crutch in this genre and it's something that doesn't get enough attention (by which I mean it deserves a separate thread).

Eschatos on Normal is not at all a hard game.
Eschatos is also the most fun shmup this casual and his even casual-er sister ever played. Why? Because it's 25 minutes of pure hype. This is [current year], I've personally had enough of static ships flying over static backgrounds shooting at static enemies and static bosses.
The always changing camera angles (which are never ever intrusive, except maybe the beginning of stage 3, but you'll get used to it in two runs), the way enemies appear and move and shoot, even how the ship pirouettes sometimes, all contribute to make a player "wow" all the way through, even on Easy.
The shoot'em up genre has potential to become the most spectacular genre in gaming, given its linear nature, but it's still stuck in the past, presentation-wise.

[clippa]

seeing people react to some facts that shouldn't come as any surprise in the year 2016.

Yeah, the whole clinging on to physical media stuff is weird too.

[Shepardus]

The shoot'em up genre has potential to become the most spectacular genre in gaming, given its linear nature, but it's still stuck in the past, presentation-wise.

I think "spectacle fighters" such as those from Platinum Games have filled much of that niche nowadays, but we're sort of coming full circle with Nier: Automata featuring machine-gun fire and flashy bullet patterns reminiscent of shmups. I've also been seeing a number of games in other genres take on bullet hell influences, such as Enter the Gungeon, Undertale, Furi, and Assault Android Cactus (though the latter's already a twin-stick shooter so that's not saying a whole lot). (Edited in Furi because I forgot about that one)

seeing people react to some facts that shouldn't come as any surprise in the year 2016.

Yeah, the whole clinging on to physical media stuff is weird too.

I can understand wanting DRM-free releases, but personally I don't want a disc and would choose a DRM-free digital copy over a disc with the same contents. To me a disc is just clutter, it's the same data as an ISO or installer on my PC with the added inconvenience of having to find a place to put it and the potential of losing or scratching the disc. Besides, I don't even have a CD/DVD reader on my laptop.

I'm not sure how it works on modern consoles though, and whether games can be distributed digitally on those consoles without the trappings of DRM. I'm also unfamiliar with what DRM policies are enforced on those platforms.

[Squire Grooktook]

- have short lifespans

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, that fighters and shmups can't directly be compared due to the difference between their experiences (which I've said several times here already), but I disagree with this.

A fighting game can be immortal so long as you have a single friend who's willing to continue playing with you. There are many "dead" games that me and a friend have been paying and continue to play for years. I don't think any game can be said to have a "life span", just the "scene".

The shoot'em up genre has potential to become the most spectacular genre in gaming, given its linear nature, but it's still stuck in the past, presentation-wise.

I think "spectacle fighters" such as those from Platinum Games have filled much of that niche nowadays, but we're sort of coming full circle with Nier: Automata featuring machine-gun fire and flashy bullet patterns reminiscent of shmups. I've also been seeing a number of games in other genres take on bullet hell influences, such as Enter the Gungeon, Undertale, and Assault Android Cactus (though the latter's already unquestionably a twin-stick shooter so that's not saying too much).

I want more character action shmups.

Also add Furi to that list up there.

[qmish]

>A fighting game can be immortal so long as you have a single friend who's willing to continue playing with you.

or if u are shitty casual who just singleplayer them

[phase3]

a JP PS2 (which cost, like, $20 now)

If this is true, I'd genuinely like to know where I can get one that inexpensively.

[AxelMill]

The shoot'em up genre has potential to become the most spectacular genre in gaming, given its linear nature, but it's still stuck in the past, presentation-wise.

I think "spectacle fighters" such as those from Platinum Games have filled much of that niche nowadays, but we're sort of coming full circle with Nier: Automata featuring machine-gun fire and flashy bullet patterns reminiscent of shmups. I've also been seeing a number of games in other genres take on bullet hell influences, such as Enter the Gungeon, Undertale, Furi, and Assault Android Cactus (though the latter's already a twin-stick shooter so that's not saying a whole lot). (Edited in Furi because I forgot about that one)

As much as Undertale and Furi are amazing (didn't play the other save for a demo of AAC), I don't want shmups to become nothing more than asterisks on game boxes with includes shoot'em up elements! written under them (I wanted to make a Featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry series joke, be thankful that I suck at making jokes).

I just want shmups to be more than Thousands Of Dangerous Colored Circles Slowly Moving Above A Scrolling Jpeg©, you know? Their name should rather be Set Pieces: The Game Series, yet we marvel when a single cow walks on the grass, because that's all we get to see down below. Make it so that we are not the only battleship and/or man/woman/loli the good faction could afford, show some fight scene around or below you like R-Type II's final boss, for example.
Let's say there's dozens of ship fighting alongside you. You meet them throughout the game, but their number decreases the further you play. At the end there's only a single ship left (which could have been color-coded the entire time, to make it more important to the player), and it slowly dies by the hand of the final boss, or maybe during your (or their, considering their job most of the time is to wait in line for you to begin yours, which is kinda stupid) final assault.
Another example, they can nuke your city in real time and you see people trying to crawl out of the remains of their houses and dying, during the first (or, again, last) stage.

The possibilities are infinite. Just give us more of a reason to care about finishing your game other than "muh 1cc list".
Will they get old once you play it ten times? Probably, but that applies to pretty much anything. Add a few hidden "secrets" to the background to create some kind of lore to talk about and there you go, they'll get old only once you play it fifteen times.

Sorry for rambling inconsequentially.

[Van_Artic]

As much as Undertale and Furi are amazing (didn't play the other save for a demo of AAC), I don't want shmups to become nothing more than asterisks on game boxes with includes shoot'em up elements! written under them (I wanted to make a Featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry series joke, be thankful that I suck at making jokes).

FEATURING THE VIC VIPER FROM THE GRADIUS SERIES!!!11!

[ZacharyB]

Let's say there's dozens of ship fighting alongside you. You meet them throughout the game, but their number decreases the further you play.

This reminds me of a stage in an obscure shmup called Metamor Jupiter. If you want to see a drama shmup, check that out on YouTube.

[Some-Mist]

I think "spectacle fighters" such as those from Platinum Games have filled much of that niche nowadays, but we're sort of coming full circle with Nier: Automata featuring machine-gun fire and flashy bullet patterns reminiscent of shmups.

the original nier also had bosses with that style of fight.

[qmish]

Eh, werent Ys series and Dicing Knight were earlier examples of "shmup style" patterns of bosses in RPGs?

[Firehawke]

Ys has had very shmupppy bosses, but they've really gotten a bit crazy in the more recent games. Anything from Ys 6 onward tends to have at least one bulletspam boss and Ys Origin has a playable character that is essentially run'n'gun.