GD: DOJ system and strat

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:08 pm

any particular bit which you're finding frustrating?
maybe the problem is you have a route which has little flexibility?

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:39 pm

No it's just the whole thing, loops with too easy first levels, 1 mistake = score is screwed and exponential scoring. Also the fact that the game just isn't enjoyable as long as you haven't strictly memorized the chains, because the only thing that's fun for me in the first loop is trying to get the chains done.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:54 pm

this is one reason why i play full runs in DOJ, i now have a very good sense of multiple routes, or how to cope somehwat with a mistake. first five stages are maybe 13-15 minutes total, so it's not a great waste of time if you are like me, and only play a few runs a week.

only thing i can say is each time you make a mistake, make a mental note of it, and work to correct it.

is it you making a mistake, or the game forcing you into a mistake? (ie deceptive bullet pattern, bad luck, etc)

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:57 pm

Well as usual i'm not playing full runs much or at all, just practicing with savestates. It's just very tedious and annoying for me because I have to learn more plans for each stage because of the hyper meter.

When I do play full runs, well, just a little chain break in stage 3 brings up a different hyper meter for stage 4 and that prevents me from getting a chain up to the big canon if I haven't learned a plan that deals with this different hyper meter in stage 4.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:01 pm

suiciding on bosses (providing you have enough spare lives) is a good strategy sometimes. lowers the rank and adds 20% or so to your hyper meter.

so ... does that mean you've learned the stage 4 section with the diagonal platforms...!?

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:06 pm

Yeah I do suicide on the stage 2 boss, but then I try not getting used to suiciding later on because I think it could be good to keep the MAXIMUM bonus, if I ever play enough to reach 2nd loop without bombing or something.

Yes I've learned the diagonal platforms section in stage 4. Practicing with savestates makes learning everything much easier. But this part needs good hyper meter management so I have more work to do to figure out how to cope with different meters after stage 3. Then I'll try learning the 1-4 boss plan and the 1-5 chain.

LtC · Post by **LtC** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:33 pm

Suiciding on purpose for rank control is retarded, stupid and retarded. I rather play on higher rank and fail 2 times more.

Well at least this isn't battle bakraid where on 70M run the player dies on purpose every 20 seconds while rain of extends falls on him non-stop. And then the ridiculously hard final boss fight is worth amazing 30K, HAHAHAHAA.

I thought I'd start playing this again soon but now I'm not so sure anymore. By the way how much is the MAX bonus in this game? How much you get per #MAX every second/30secs/minute? At least in DDP you could score amazingly well just by holding the maxium and ignoring most chaining.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:37 pm

much less for DOJ. maybe 30 mill total for first loop.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:18 am

I guess it's about as much as in DDP (30M in first loop, then 250 in second loop or something like that), but since scores go up to 1,8B it's about half as important.

It's a good thing that it's less important because it's the most important reason why the game can be said not to allow any mistake from the player. Which is terrible in my opinion.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:57 pm

ISO's BL replay on super-play is a 2.5 bill if i remember correct, and he only has max bomb bonus up til 2-2 or 2-3 i think. obviously his chains aren't as good as HFD, but max bomb is only for people shooting for WR i think

i'm also looking forward to your relationship with DOJ becoming very love and hate, like with DDP. criticising it all the while, but never able to stop playing like some danmaku junkie

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:12 pm

jpj wrote:i'm also looking forward to your relationship with DOJ becoming very love and hate, like with DDP. criticising it all the while, but never able to stop playing like some danmaku junkie 8)

lol yeah it's very much like that already, I hate a lot of things about it, the sounds, the graphics, the scoring system, the rank system... but I can't stop playing it because it's the best danmaku I can play with what I like to play (savestates and keyboard). However I'm pretty sure I'll never try to reach such high goals as in DDP.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:40 pm

no pressure!

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:16 pm

"White label" world record is 1,8B no? Anyway, I don't know how much I will try to get. Maybe I'll get too tired of the game and just stop playing at any point, maybe I'll try to just get the occidental record, maybe I'll try for 1B...

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:23 pm

no, i think the world record is 2.1 or 2.2 bill, if i remember rightly

croikle · Post by **croikle** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:06 am

The word of PLASMO decrees that it is 2.13 for A, 2.03 for B.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:45 pm

Did anyone ever rip the white label superplay DVD (A-E) ? I had it before but had to give it back and for some reason making an ISO image from it failed every time, now I kind of need to check some stuff from it. Or if anyone has a white label B-E or whatever superplay video I'd like to see it too.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:57 pm

Also, is there anything that helps make more points out of second loop other than the MAXIMUM bonus and the higher bee values? Like a slight multiplier for points made out of chaining or more hypers given to the player... ?

TLB · Post by **TLB** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:27 am

The B-E superplays are in the game under "Arcade Simulation".

And jpj, whozat in your avatar?

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:17 pm

The run in the game replays is B-L and doesn't score high at all in second loop.

TLB · Post by **TLB** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:33 pm

PROMETHEUS wrote:The run in the game replays is B-L and doesn't score high at all in second loop.

Ohyeahhh xD

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:54 pm

m3tall1ca wrote: And jpj, whozat in your avatar?

he goes by the handle USA

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:15 pm

I'm trying to chain through the huge cannon-midboss thing in stage 4, this is way too hard in first loop, I guess Cave intended this part to be doable only in second loop where it becomes easy to chain with the different system ? That would explain why most superplay videos show this part failing as well.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:18 pm

extremely difficult, sorry

you need to do a few tap A's here (ie hold a laser, let go and tap again, hoping not to drop your GPM)

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:45 am

uuh i played this game way too much today, I have learned half of 1-5. 1-5 is hard! And I thought it was "straightforward" before T_T

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:45 am

okay, so i have a few questions...

if you die, and your bomb stock increases, will entering max bomb bonus with more bombs than you start with affect your points accrued for max bombs...? ie, if A-E starts with 1 bomb, and the earliest you can enter max bomb bonus is the end of 1-2, if you suicide three times on the stage 1 boss, when you pick up the bomb at the end of stage 2, will your points go up quicker...? [/crazy jpj]

i'm playing black label tonight, and did something interesting in 1-3.. this probably wont work on white chocolate version, but after the large turret near the end of the 2nd half of the stage, you have a few sparse enemies, then a big wave, then two large cannons, and two bees, then the boss. well, i managed to generate an extra hyper whilst hypering the large turret, so after it died, i quickly nabbed it, activated, and managed to chain all the way up to the two bees without much trouble, and profited maybe 15 mill, but had no hypers ready for the boss. as hypering the boss is only worth about 6 mill, i guess this is the way to go..? (sorry, i just feel like i'm wimping out if i don't hyper the bosses. anyways, i normally find that bit after the turret very tough (if EVER) to chain all the way to the end. am i missing something, or is extra hyper the best way??

and i am still having problems with the 1-5 first midboss. i tend to hyper him after his first attack pattern is about to end, and just before he starts strafing. but sometimes i activate it before he dies, and use the invincibility to move almost point-blank, and hold my laser down on him, in the upper left of the screen. either method, results are a bit mixed. the enemies that come down after seem slightly random (??) based on how long you took to kill him. is quicker better? and also, i did a weird thing, where i started stage 5 with three hypers, and almost enough meter for the fourth. instead of waiting, i activated, so when on the midboss, i had two hypers ready. now, is it me, or is the length of invincibility slightly longer with two hypers?? this might make things easier for me here, but tough to manage my hyper meter so accutely on the 1-4 boss maybe =/

any advice?

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:40 am

I'm trying to get back into this but its a massive chore- how do you stomach the constant need to start and restart start and restart the first level again and again and again?

Its amazing that you guys are talking about learning 1-4 and 1-5 etc., after 30 minutes of redoing stage 1 I was ready to throw the thing out of the window.

tommyb · Post by **tommyb** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:54 am

henry dark wrote:I'm trying to get back into this but its a massive chore- how do you stomach the constant need to start and restart start and restart the first level again and again and again?

Its amazing that you guys are talking about learning 1-4 and 1-5 etc., after 30 minutes of redoing stage 1 I was ready to throw the thing out of the window.

Thank something above me, I thought I was the only one.

Been playing DDP DOJ today for a few hours, and still can't even come close to chaining the level, not anywhere close. I used to play a lot of DOJ, too, so its not like I'm a COMPLETE and utter noob.

Cave games constantly rape me, but I still buy them, play them, and love them. I guess I just look at it as "hey if I do ever laern this game, I'll fucking rule"

Any pointers on how to chain the 2nd bee in stage 1, and how to chain the mid-boss and those big stupid ships that fly in after him?

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:08 am

henry dark wrote:I'm trying to get back into this but its a massive chore- how do you stomach the constant need to start and restart start and restart the first level again and again and again?

Its amazing that you guys are talking about learning 1-4 and 1-5 etc., after 30 minutes of redoing stage 1 I was ready to throw the thing out of the window.

i've often heard people call me artistic.

turns out they were saying autistic

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:53 am

jpj wrote:if you die, and your bomb stock increases, will entering max bomb bonus with more bombs than you start with affect your points accrued for max bombs...? ie, if A-E starts with 1 bomb, and the earliest you can enter max bomb bonus is the end of 1-2, if you suicide three times on the stage 1 boss, when you pick up the bomb at the end of stage 2, will your points go up quicker...? [/crazy jpj]

I absolutely haven't tested but if this works like in DDP, and it probably does, it makes no difference at all how many bombs you have in stock. If it did, I'm pretty damn sure that all superplayers would play shot type and suicide to get max bomb stock before the first bomb bonus.

jpj wrote:about chaining 1-3

Uhh I can chain all of 1-3 consistently even in white label (with a break at the midboss), I use one hyper right after the midboss, and one hyper while destroying the rocket-turret thing that cancels bullets when you kill it that comes before the turret you were talking about. It's not too hard to chain like that. Without an hyper I had way too much trouble chaining there.

jpj wrote:chaining after 1-5 first midboss

For 1-5 midboss, I copied the B-E BL superplay and it works everytime. Slower is better, apparently (dunno why), don't stay all the way down the screen, move forward a little until the midboss starts firing its huge lasers, then move down so as not to be point blanking him anymore. You should also do this so that it starts its laser attack about 1/3 of the way from the left. This way it will die at the top of the screen and in the middle. If you have a hyper activated at this moment, you will connect. The timings I'm giving you may have to be done a little differently for you though because unlike you I'm using a hyper a little before the midboss, and it lasts during all the fight with it, so I'm killing it faster than you. Maybe you could do the same but pointblank him during the laser attack.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:00 pm

henry dark wrote:I'm trying to get back into this but its a massive chore- how do you stomach the constant need to start and restart start and restart the first level again and again and again?

Its amazing that you guys are talking about learning 1-4 and 1-5 etc., after 30 minutes of redoing stage 1 I was ready to throw the thing out of the window.

I think doing the chains in those games requires some skills that you need to develop before being able to do them consistently. You can develop those skills while trying to chain, but then you're going to spend weeks on just the first stage indeed. Just a question of endurance. I spent about 50 hours just learning the stage 2 chain in DoDonPachi. A couple of years later I learned the 2-5 chain in less than 10 hours.

Also depending on whether you're using savestates or not it's a lot more painful. Level select is not nearly as good as savestates, many times I find myself redoing 50 times in a row a 30-seconds section of a level. If I couldn't do that, it would take a HELL of a lot more time to learn. A pure waste of time.

P.S. : come to think about it, I think of this as a massive chore as well but I guess I'm a little addicted to it and can't stop playing until I reach a certain goal, then I will be FREE >.<