Japanese gaming is dead

[dcharlie]

hehe, i was going to put that up and Demons Souls - but Demons Souls does have a realistic look so might not be up Neo's alley.

The Balls Hardness of it is completely refreshing (as well as being responsible for a few flying controllers)

[neorichieb1971]

i'm curious - why did you buy PoP? It's the very definition of everything you've said you dislike this gen.

Anyways :
PS3
----
1. Orange Box - mainly for Portal, but hey look at that - you get Half Life 2 as well, which is also brilliant (not sure it classes as realistic or not ? it looks mildly realish due to the environments but... huge alien tripods?) . and ep 1 (let down). and ep 2 (very good, great ending struggle). and Team Fortress 2 (filthy online gaming)
2. Braid (download) - 2d puzzler with mild platform and time control elements. Lots of brain teasing. Gets a lot of hate, genuinely good idea imo.
3. Wipeout HD / Fury (download/retail in UK i think too) - absolutely incredible. Back to form.
4. 3D Dot Game Heroes - has it's issues , but has a great asthetic and harks back to zelda style games whilst giving a HD look. Some good humour in there too.
5. Flower (download) - i will make it clear i HATED flower. But as it's something pretty left field it might appeal.
6. The Last Guy (download) - again, didn't blow me away, but it's got quite the following. Round up the people from a map and avoid the zombies.
7. Pixel Junk Eden (download) - abstract, beautiful, different.


There's more - but that's at least a start.

Orange box is shit on the PS3 so pass.

Braid - Will get it
Wipeout HD got
Dot - pass
Flower - got
The last guy - Doesn't really blow me away either
Pixel Junk Eden - Think I tried the demo and couldn't figure out what I was supposed to do in 5 minutes.

I got Prince of Persia because 3D platforming games are one my favourite genres. Its not realistic and its abstract. Its got monsters, time warping, puzzles, sword fighting. I don't think that mix is considered realistic.

So based on your recommendation. I will buy Braid and take a look at Trash panic or whatever it was.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I havnt played em myself but what about Vanquish, Enslaved and that new Afterburner game?

[dcharlie]

Orange box isn't -that- bad on the PS3 - it's just not as good as it is on the X360, and way below the PC - but that's par for the course with almost all the earlier multi platform games (perhaps a little worse for Orange Box, but i thought it had at least been patched up a bit?)

Portal still stands up - one of the best games this gen - or ever IMO.

[cools]

Kinda off topic but in line with where the thread has headed.

I picked up one of the 360 Slims a month back. Bought it solely because I miss multiplayer gaming, and despite my best efforts I know no-one locally interested in playing arcade stuff with me. Online with randoms doesn't interest me, but the majority of my friends are on Xbox Live so I get to play stuff with them. Which is nice. The noise level of the slim has also won me over - it's really, really quiet when running games from the HDD.

Despite my previous disillusionment with modern games, there have been a few titles that have peaked my interest over the past few years. A few sequels I wouldn't mind playing too. So I've been picking up whatever I can find that's cheap - if it's under a fiver and sounds even remotely like something I'm interested in it gets purchased. The preowned market is a goldmine for this.

And what I'm finding is when I've only paid 3-4 pound for a game I can forgive a whole bunch of its flaws. Crank the difficulty to max and most modern stuff is entertaining. Examples - I'd be royally annoyed if I'd paid full price for Mafia II, but on hardest difficulty and borrowed from a friend and it's great fun. Jericho cost me 3.99 - it has no multiplayer whatsoever, the AI is terrible and you spend most of the second half of the game running around healing your teammates while cursing them for being so rubbish, but it's Clive Barker fun! Kane & Lynch looks like a PS2 game and has some oddball glitchy controls - it cost me 3.50 and I had a riot playing it.

There are duffers though. Too Human was a cheapo which I was really looking forward to, and after about 6 hours of play I realised it was actually totally boring

It kinda feels like I'm back in the 80s buying C16 tapes with my pocket money. I know I'm going to end up with masses of them, and a lot will be rubbish but there's so much I can gloss over at this price point.

It's also different to pirating games. For some reason, when games cost nothing I'm as judgemental of them as when they are full price.

I realise most of them have demos I could download via XBL to try with but if I hail back to the 80s C16 point again... Having a demo isn't the same thing as just looking through a shop at what's cheap and interesting.

There's a heck of a lot on XBLA too. The trials are nice to evaluate with but the price points are a little too high for impulse buying, particularly when I've not got a physical product I can lend to a friend, trade, sell or give away when I'm fed up of it. There's easily £100 worth of XBLA games I'd like to own - if they cost under a fiver a pop instead of £8 (= £10 in my head) or £12 ( = £15) I'd have stacks of them simply because that's the price level that works for me

Arcade games and home games way past their sell by date - these are my niche.

[Skykid]

But look at where neorichie is setting the bar - Rayman, Robocod, Banjo Racing, Tekken forest stage music etc. It isn't hard at all to satisfy his modest demands - but the issue, of course, is that neorichie is not a reasonable person.

Point taken (although the list was conceived prior to Richie divulging his dirty secret Rayman fantasies, so we had no idea where the bar was)

I'm not really sure when this thread turned into a discussion to try to find something Richie could relate to in the modern market. My opening post was about Capcom's Keiji Inafune blowing his lid again over the uselessness of the current Japanese development scene.

I took his whistle blowing as some kind of sign that Japan should be, as Trev suggested, working toward building up their core domestic markets and find success in its own borders the way the PC Engine did for instance. If the Japanese core market is now handheld oriented because they're being alienated by trashy, western style games, then that's a market worth re-building. At the moment they're stretched, fighting battles on two fronts and winning neither.

But anyway, that was the subject. As for Richie, I saw something I could relate to in his points, even though it was clear he was very disenchanted and fickle regarding current gen gaming. What I didn't know was that the games he was basing his creative arguments on were games I wouldn't look twice at, and at a stab I'd say his most beloved era would be 32-bit? Amirite Richie?

[MadScientist]

In your first post in the thread you said "nearly all of them shit because they're trying to ape western formats and failing hard." It seems to me that Inafune is part of that problem more than anything else - in the link (also in the first post) he says "I want to study how Westerners live, and make games that appeal to them." If you look at this Devil May Cry 5 article;

Inafune said that Devil May Cry 5 would be “custom-tailored to what the fans want”.

http://scrawlfx.com/2010/09/inafune-dev ... tern-touch

This is nonsense. It's been handed over to Ninja Theory who make dumbed down cinematic action games with awful input lag and simplistic combat. Is this really what the fans want? Inafune is the one that is out of touch and doesn't get it.

[neorichieb1971]

Point taken (although the list was conceived prior to Richie divulging his dirty secret Rayman fantasies, so we had no idea where the bar was)

Dirty Rayman secrets lol. I must admit I enjoy the art style and sonics of the game more than I do its frustrating design. I did finish Rayman 2 on the DC though. With a lot less hair.

I felt that I had something to add to this topic because this thread hit a sore spot with me. I never noticed it before this thread but my tastes have swung 180 degrees from East to West in the past 6 years or so. My money isn't going East anymore and people are starting to feel the same way they might be evading JP wares for the same reasons I am.

It does seem to be a simple thing to resolve though. Less Eastern investment in console games that I like, more investment in handhelds that I don't like. The West have technically gifted coders with zero ambition to make abstract on a big budget leaving me gameless. Although I am starting to feel a surge of pressure to start playing things I'd not considered before.

Its obvious I am one of very few people who would like to see a movie type presentation of something abstract. But 10 years ago thats where I thought PS3 and 360 would be going. Not in the direction it has. I feel the industry is copping out inventing quick sale techniques. Honestly sometimes I feel part 38 of something is just part 36 or 37 with a few parameter tweaks in the code or a new controller patch has been added. Welcome to 2010.

[E. Randy Dupre]

This is going to sound a lot more confrontational than I'm meaning it to, but the problem isn't the games, richie. The problem is you. Increasingly, it's sounding like you're suffering from a combination of gaming ennui - which we all get from time to time, but for some people it takes hold and never lets go, meaning that they're convinced that new games aren't ever as good as the ones from their youth - and the fact that you've simply not exposed yourself to this generation properly. Certainly not enough to be making the kind of blanket statements that you are.

For example... CoD = "realistic"? Dude, have you even played it? It's one of the single least realistic FPS titles created - even, in some ways, less realistic than Doom. Does it go for realism in its visuals? Yes. In its gameplay? Not even slightly.

I'm certainly not saying that they're bad games, but SMT3 is, as far as I'm concerned, the complete package. DDS sails a little too close to traditional JRPGing in comparison.

That's weird, because Nocturne has got more elements of a traditional jRPG (such as towns and explorable overworld map full of... stuff). DDS has got more cutscenes and that's about it.

Yeah, I'm not really wording this properly. By traditional, I meant it has more in common with things like the PS1 FF games, what with a similar battle mechanic, structure, character progression and whatnot. Obviously, SMT3 is more traditional in the sense that it's more old-fashioned - it's basically a grid-based dungeon crawler, but that's one of the things that made it stand out from the crowd at the time of its release (before dungeon crawlers came back in a big way on the DS).

[neorichieb1971]

Well I'm open minded enough to learn. I'm also 38, my youth would have been Last Ninja and Head over Heels, not Mario 64.

Sometimes I play a game and I think to myself why bother. The reason I feel that way is because the game isn't special enough for me to bide my time dying and retrying or getting frustrated. I also played games to get away from reality all my life, which is why I have a anti realism attitude. So really I am looking for a game that is a passport to a wonder world that takes my mind of the daily routines of work and anxiety. I'm not usually playing because I want to be the best at it. I think I'm learning that I'm playing games for the wrong reasons. Its like the drug worked before, but it isn't working now. I'm sure this is just a phase i'm going through. But I will say that Mr driller, ESP ra.de, Galaga, Strikers 1945 2 have never lost their appeal. So at least that can never be taken away from me.

[cools]

Japan has always 'aped' western commercial output in most stuff they do, from games to music

Just noticed this. Entirely subjective. I'd place British, European and American music a million points higher on the aping scale.

I also played games to get away from reality all my life, which is why I have a anti realism attitude. So really I am looking for a game that is a passport to a wonder world that takes my mind of the daily routines of work and anxiety. I'm not usually playing because I want to be the best at it. I think I'm learning that I'm playing games for the wrong reasons. Its like the drug worked before, but it isn't working now. I'm sure this is just a phase i'm going through. But I will say that Mr driller, ESP ra.de, Galaga, Strikers 1945 2 have never lost their appeal. So at least that can never be taken away from me.

You work in the military? Or as a crash test dummy?

It does sound like you're playing for the wrong reason though, I agree. A game should be an end in itself, not a means.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Anything that simulates something real. Gt5, Call of Duty, Medal of Honor I put under sims because everything in the game is as close to reality as possible. Which is what I don't really want to see that much of.

Call of Duty is supposed to look photorealistic, but has never been anywhere near hardcore simulation FPP war games (old Raibow Six on the PC, Operation Flashpoint and the likes, where 1-2 bullets take you down etc.). I'm not even sure if anything along those lines got released on consoles since Sniper Elite (which was all that hardcore only if you chose so in options). I don't play such games an awful lot anyway because I never wanted to be a soldier.
Besides, you seem to be misusing the word "abstract". When something looks abstract, you can't tell what are you looking at exactly. I'd say Radiant Silvergun and Zanac have pretty abstract graphics. I can tell these are shmups because I know what a shmup is, and yet they look like nothing I can put my hands on. Parodius, on the contrary, is surreal rather than abstract.
I'm being pedantic, though. Not pulling your leg or anything.

[Drum]

Anything that simulates something real. Gt5, Call of Duty, Medal of Honor I put under sims because everything in the game is as close to reality as possible. Which is what I don't really want to see that much of.

Call of Duty is supposed to look photorealistic, but has never been anywhere near hardcore simulation FPP war games (old Raibow Six on the PC, Operation Flashpoint and the likes, where 1-2 bullets take you down etc.). I'm not even sure if anything along those lines got released on consoles since Sniper Elite (which was all that hardcore only if you chose so in options). I don't play such games an awful lot anyway because I never wanted to be a soldier.
Besides, you seem to be misusing the word "abstract". When something looks abstract, you can't tell what are you looking at exactly. I'd say Radiant Silvergun and Zanac have pretty abstract graphics. I can tell these are shmups because I know what a shmup is, and yet they look like nothing I can put my hands on. Parodius, on the contrary, is surreal rather than abstract.
I'm being pedantic, though. Not pulling your leg or anything.

We maybe are using 'abstract' overbroadly (I think I started using it, so you should blame me), but it's a bit broader than what you're saying here - quite a few different styles would fall under the 'abstract' umbrella, and it's kind of a continuum/scale. Parodius is both surreal and abstract, because it uses a cartoony style - and cartoony is definitely on the abstract continuum. I am probably using continuum incorrectly too.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

@ Cools the only area in music Japan is really good at is video game music which they take allot more seriously then the west does as they have had groups like Zuntata who are as big as an rock group. The west has been catching up latly though, with the retro blip tune craze thing.

Oh there is some good Japanese trance / house music with the likes of Hiroshi Watanabe who is a very talented producer. Which almost makes up for the bloody awfull JPop.

[Skykid]

Japan has always 'aped' western commercial output in most stuff they do, from games to music

Just noticed this. Entirely subjective. I'd place British, European and American music a million points higher on the aping scale.

I know, the point was incorrectly worded. I re-addressed and better defined what I was getting at a few posts on with Gaijinpunch.

[cools]

Derailed thread is derailed.

[dcharlie]

Cools the only area in music Japan is really good at is video game music

and, as you mentioned, hard trance
and techno
and Reggae
and hip hop
and... etc etc.

i think the thing is that they have the talent but in smaller pockets. Boom Boom Sats, Shinichi Osawa, Oceanlane (prior sellout), 80Kidz, Ken Ishii, Yoda, etc etc... are all up there with western talent, it's just that 99% will neer leave these shores.

Though i will attest that NOTHING will make up for the music crimes that is J-Pop.

[Skykid]

Though i will attest that NOTHING will make up for the music crimes that is J-Pop.

OFT, I'd throw commercial J-Rock into the music crime category too.

I once heard some really good D&B out of Japan, but I've no idea of any names or who to look for in this scene.

[Taylor]

Derailed thread is derailed.

It's okay. Elixir killed this whole stupid "Japanese gaming is dead" thing on page one.

Reading comments to Keiji's rambles on sites like Kotaku and Gamasutra gives me five times my daily dose of rage. :(

[Drum]

Derailed thread is derailed.

It's okay. Elixir killed this whole stupid "Japanese gaming is dead" thing on page one.

Reading comments to Keiji's rambles on sites like Kotaku and Gamasutra gives me five times my daily dose of rage.

Elixir's post was pretty terrible though.

[cools]

Cools the only area in music Japan is really good at is video game music

and, as you mentioned, hard trance
and techno
and Reggae
and hip hop
and... etc etc.

i think the thing is that they have the talent but in smaller pockets. Boom Boom Sats, Shinichi Osawa, Oceanlane (prior sellout), 80Kidz, Ken Ishii, Yoda, etc etc... are all up there with western talent, it's just that 99% will neer leave these shores.

I'm going to disagree. It's again on a subjective basis. Production and musical quality (objective) they're both on a par, but I've not heard anything that does the same to me that the Western stuff does. In a similar vein - Australian music has a different feel to it and does little for me (inside of the genres that make my hair stand on end and vision disappear).

In a vain attempt to get back on topic: * is dead is an overly dramatic statement applied far too liberally, "dead" being a word with no uncertain terms. "Japanese gaming" has always emulated and applied its own twists to western gaming, and vice versa. No genres are dead and everyone needs to get out more and enjoy the precious gift that is their life.

[Skykid]

Derailed thread is derailed.

It's okay. Elixir killed this whole stupid "Japanese gaming is dead" thing on page one.

Reading comments to Keiji's rambles on sites like Kotaku and Gamasutra gives me five times my daily dose of rage.

Elixir's post was pretty terrible though.

Yeah, and wasn't particularly successful in killing the thread either, since he hasn't posted in the last five pages.

Srsly though, back on topic. Is Japanese gaming dead? Of course not.

Is Japanese gaming changing? Mosdef.

I still don't think Richie's talking total horseshit, but it's clear he needs a little more of an open mind and some willpower to give the the good stuff a chance.

The real question is whether or not you like modern Japanese games and they're 'westernised' angles. If the answer is no, dark days are ahead. Go live in solitude, get all doujin and pray Cave don't evolve down the Deathsmiles 2 path.

[dcharlie]

I'm going to disagree. It's again on a subjective basis. Production and musical quality (objective) they're both on a par, but I've not heard anything that does the same to me that the Western stuff does. In a similar vein - Australian music has a different feel to it and does little for me (inside of the genres that make my hair stand on end and vision disappear).

well, music is a highly personal thing - so agreed. It's one of my first loves , my first job was in the music industry, prior to that i was involved in creating a pretty well circulated fanzine, i play guitar (pretty badly) and piano (even worse) - but good enough that i can knock out my own songs

Western stuff i'd absolutely kill for - Underworld evoke something in me that few bands can. But by the same token, whilst on recorded medium they tend to fall down massively, Japan's Boom Boom Satellites are one of the best live acts i've ever seen. Fuji Rock concert in the rain was absolutely insane. Then again... one of my favourite bands happen to be Australian and i'm pretty sure 99% of people will think they are shite (Art of Fighting - for the record ) so perhaps i'm not so sure. I would recommend Shinichi Osawa to anyone in an heartbeat - though the "English" version of his album "The One" is inferior to his Japanese album

Back on track - no sign of Richie.... too busy with Braid?

[Demetori]

It's probably been said already but what the fuck at the vague thread title? There shouldn't even have been an opening post, the thread title was enough to get the point across.

No, I don't think Japanese gaming is dead.
I don't have any other input on this topic, because we keep buying games despite it.

@Skykid

Kudos for unintentionally? mentioning Mosdef! Great man, but his music is not in my taste.

[dcharlie]

I'm also 38, my youth would have been Last Ninja and Head over Heels, not Mario 64.

heh same here, we have more in common with gaming that you'd think!

[neorichieb1971]

Japanese gaming isn't dead, its derailed like this thread. Japanese can make the greatest graphics, they can make the greatest sounds, they can make the greatest story come to life. But at the moment there just isn't anything more than skin deep. Its not like the old days where you would find obscure imports. The only thing thats out there is what you can see on your Western game shop shelf under the Namco, Capcom, Sony and Square Enix brands. Konami are perhaps a mix of Western and Eastern gaming design.

I'm inclined to believe its the Japanese audience that has shifted somewhere else. Perhaps the internet has somehow killed the JP star.

[Skykid]

It's probably been said already but what the fuck at the vague thread title? There shouldn't even have been an opening post, the thread title was enough to get the point across.

Eh, I don't get it?

You need the opening post to clarify it wasn't me making the statement exactly, it was on the back of Inafune's pessimism. I like arresting headlines tho, forgive me.

Kudos for unintentionally mentioning Mosdef! Great man, but his music is not in my taste.

Well, it was intentional as far as mixing up words n' stuff go, most definitely.

[cools]

Gave Braid a go on the basis of this thread.

Ugly, fudgy controls, built in cheating, nothing special...

Music is quite nice though.

[neorichieb1971]

Demon Souls looks ok, a bit by the numbers though. After God of War Demon Souls looks a bit pedestrian, perhaps its a different style of game. I only watched youtubes.

[Drum]

What the hell is wrong with you? The God of War series is notorious for having zero new ideas and cribbing everything it could from popular third person action games at the time. It was always all about presentation (and the presentation is embarrassing to anyone over the age of 14 - Todd McFarlane meets Mortal Kombat meets Greek Mythology). Demon's Souls has original gameplay and a weird, macabre atmosphere and is basically the latest entry in the long-running King's Field series.