Too close for comfort? the revival?

[cools]

True, judging quality based on reviews is one thing, but not knowing about the games mere existence?

[Ed Oscuro]

Too many of them are nothing but re-worded press releases with screenshots supplied by the manufacturer

Maybe in the 1990s EGM and Video Game Player or whatever, but not any more. Even then, aside from shakycam pics and supplied screenshots from initial releases, game reviewers insist on having playable games...this isn't a controversial statement I'm making. They're in the business of reviewing games, not pictures. I could imagine that some people are in it just for money but still that is a pretty serious (and unjustified) charge you're leveling at the press, with no proof to back it up as a general criticism of an entire industry.

...based on builds which aren't final, so they're not allowed to mention critical bugs which end up in the final release anyway.

What are they going to base them off of? And you're further muddying the picture by not recalling these are mostly called previews, not reviews. Generally speaking the previews are of products worse than the finals. When an unfinished (i.e. unpatched) game gets on a reviewer's desk, it's pretty typical for them to review it as is and mention the possibility of a patch in passing, but they'll definitely review according to what's there, not with what's promised for the blurry future.

I'd agree that maybe corporate reviewers don't have the standards of mainstream journalism (lol) but they are still trying to do justice to the promise of a game, especially in previews. Being easy on previews isn't unique to the gaming press, either.

If all the game reviewers had just slagged off Half-Life before it underwent its revamp, the media could arguably have driven it into the ground. Some misguided souls might enter the profession thinking they are going to crusade for Truth and Justice but probably many more are there because they want to cheerlead the state of the art. They probably feel (and it's debatable, but I think it's reasonable) that they ought to err on the side of giving games a chance, even when there are deadlines approaching and the current build is obviously not good to go. Maybe miracles don't happen, but that doesn't mean you preemptively review a game based on unfinished stuff which is given to you with the understanding it's unfinished. Personally, if I was a game reviewer, I would be very aware that I'm just getting a look into what's being intended, and roll with that. I like unfinished stuff (Lameduke et al.); it's a rolling history lesson.

There definitely needs to be more stuff based on total services. There should be rolling reviews of the state of services, not games as fixed points in time that get a release and maybe you can hold out the hope of a patch. I expect the game review sites will have to delve into the backend aspects of stuff more systematically and deeply than just covering ongoing crises and news about PSN and the like.

[IseeThings]

True, judging quality based on reviews is one thing, but not knowing about the games mere existence?

I don't know, there are a lot of games out there, and outside of what is a small community I doubt many people had heard of it at all.

IMHO there is a 'pyramid' of system users / people to consider

Code: Select all

      /\   - Users who consider your game worth buying (customers)
     ---
  | /    \ | - Users who consider your game worth buying 2nd hand
   -------
  /   o    \  - Users who consider your game worth pirating
  ----------
/            \ -  Users who don't consider your game to be worthwhile at all
--------------
\/\/\/  \/\/\/   - Users who haven't even heard of your game

The industry seems hell-bent on considering everyone below the first level to be lost sales, which simply isn't the case.

You can potentially encourage users below that to be customers by offering better deals, making better games, or tricking them into buying something they don't want but by default they're not customers, so you can't have lost them.

People are promoted from the bottom most level based on what they see in your game, if they don't see your game they're never promoted, it's as simple as that IMHO. When it comes to shooters a large number will probably just end up being people who don't consider your game worthwhile at all, shooters have limited appeal. If they're uncertain about something they might consider it worth pirating (and if they enjoy it, might consider a further release actually worth buying) 2nd hand fills a similar role, a lot of people might not want to pay full RRP for something they're uncertain about.

By cutting off all the levels between 'haven't heard of' and 'customers' you're not going to increase sales, you're simply cutting out part of the pyramid and people will sink *down* not *up*

If you're going into business you have to factor in these things, if you do then you're prepared and have a realistic outlook, if you don't, you're probably going to go bankrupt.

Obviously in reality there are a few more levels of complexity, such as people who want to buy your game but *can't* (region restrictions and the like) but overall it's a lot easier for the industry to drive people *down* the chain rather than up it, the classic example being making a pirated version have more value than a retail one, which Ubisoft with their 'always online' protections, limited number of installs + single machine locking and companies jumping on the DLC bandwagon are doing a good job of showing.

[IseeThings]

Too many of them are nothing but re-worded press releases with screenshots supplied by the manufacturer

Maybe in the 1990s EGM and Video Game Player or whatever, but not any more. Even then, aside from shakycam pics and supplied screenshots from initial releases, game reviewers insist on having playable games...this isn't a controversial statement I'm making. They're in the business of reviewing games, not pictures. I could imagine that some people are in it just for money but still that is a pretty serious (and unjustified) charge you're leveling at the press, with no proof to back it up as a general criticism of an entire industry.

I've seen it first hand with people doing iphone apps, giving pre-written reviews to friends to people and promising smaller review sites exclusives in order to boost their traffic and such. If my experiences are anything to go by it's a lot more common than you'd think. People say don't trust anything you read on Wikipedia, but review sites are IMHO 10x worse than that.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think you're dealing with the wild west gray area that really isn't being served by the corporate types, at least not well, partly because of its sheer size and partly because it's very hard to get a grip on which titles people are interested in seeing reviews for (or need to see reviews for). So sure, those unsavory reviewing practices occur, but then I don't think you're talking about corporate reviews.

There have been pretty persistent debates through the last decade (and, occasionally, references to showdowns between developers and reviewers much earlier) on the practice and influence of ad buys, but for the most part it looks like a reasonable, level playing field is winning out in the corporate area. I don't recall Kane & Lynch site wrap-arounds influencing a generally mediocre review on the site which featured it, for example.

And whether friends of mobile app developers might give undue weight to things made by their friends, possibly with their input, in areas they are interested in, I can only guess Caveat emptor. The stuff we all probably learned in elementary and high school about weighing a source doesn't apply only to articles on history.

My personal experience with what you're talking about was when I was kinda-sorta doing some (very little, actually) work for Kurt Kalata's Contra HQ (as an offshoot of the Castlevania Forums), and I very quickly felt burned by Konami's rep who told me about this great phone port they were doing of Contra IV...it turned out that the version available for my phone was doggie barf. I don't think it is fair to say that it was all part of some ploy to drive out the indie game reviewers, which is what was accomplished here; they would definitely like small guys to review their "friend's" games and do it out of their own pocket, but none of us paying for games ourselves are going out of our way to rack up huge phone bills testing out all the new mobile games (plus, I'm no longer scared of flouridation, but the electromagnetic spectrum; spooky!) and so it is going to be left to enthusiasts and maybe pro sites if they ever get around to it.

The market has definitely shifted to the app clearinghouses (i.e. Apple) having the appearance of unprecedented control over reviews on items, although again it does seem like there is some leeway given to players to actually put down honestly critical reviews and not have them pulled for fear of hurting sales (which is the publisher's natural bias).

My personal thought is that it hasn't really dawned on the "artistically inclined" portion of the game-playing public that considers itself discerning that there is anything of worth in the mobile space, especially since a lot of us are tied (emotionally and financially) to legacy systems with more physical components and notions of ownership (cartridge or CD = ownership; download = huh?)

[Nasirosuchus]

Most people had never even heard of Fast Striker until the torrent became available.

That is irrelevant.

Shmups Forum is a community, and we can expect more from our members.

We were given the opportunity to speak with (and even openly criticize) the developer, who is a member of these boards, and ask whatever questions we wished.

Like I've said before, I'm not going to discuss what anyone thinks it's morally right or wrong for people to do or what kind of behavior they should or shouldn't exhibit. What people decide to do outside of this message board is their business.

The fact that people had a chance to speak with the developer here doesn't change the fact that most people had never heard of the game and it certainly doesn't change the fact that game wasn't very good. Once again, this board doesn't encompass all of shmupdom.

[cools]

Again true, I just find it a far stretch that the majority (most) of established users here and on related other forums hadn't heard of this specific game, considering the hype that went on throughout the community.

[gray117]

The fact that people had a chance to speak with the developer here doesn't change the fact that most people had never heard of the game and it certainly doesn't change the fact that game wasn't very good. Once again, this board doesn't encompass all of shmupdom.

Maybe so, but piracy doesn't solve any of this. I'm not convinced of discovery via pirating; imho if you're that way inclined I think most people already know of the game, looked it up, researched it, found it appealing to some degree, and then pirated it.

Whether or not this is a lost sale, you've provided an incentive not to part with money and taken control away from the authors.

Quality of the product itself has nothing to do with this process.

[BIL]

The religion and ethics make-out fests..... have buried the useful stuff.

I don't remember religion popping up despite all the ethics drivel. That would make this the ultimate worst thread ever.

/BryanM> adds +1 shit posts to thread

Indeed.

[Elixir]

BryanM: This thread has less than a page worth of "information", mixed in with things like Siren's autistic garbage. When was the last piece of MAME emulation in this thread?

Ever notice how the more someone writes, the less they have to say?

Too close for comfort? the revival?
[ 93 Posts / 63.27% of user’s posts ]

[Nasirosuchus]

Again true, I just find it a far stretch that the majority (most) of established users here and on related other forums hadn't heard of this specific game, considering the hype that went on throughout the community.

Message board regulars make up a very small percentage of shooting game fans. Even then, someone being a regular doesn't mean that they're going to take notice of/read every single thread. I certainly don't. You have to understand that indie games don't get the same advertising and hype as companies like Ubisoft, Blizzard, Epic, Nintendo, etc.

[Nasirosuchus]

The fact that people had a chance to speak with the developer here doesn't change the fact that most people had never heard of the game and it certainly doesn't change the fact that game wasn't very good. Once again, this board doesn't encompass all of shmupdom.

Maybe so, but piracy doesn't solve any of this. I'm not convinced of discovery via pirating; imho if you're that way inclined I think most people already know of the game, looked it up, researched it, found it appealing to some degree, and then pirated it.

Whether or not this is a lost sale, you've provided an incentive not to part with money and taken control away from the authors.

Quality of the product itself has nothing to do with this process.

Out of those people who do obtain it through unauthorized downloading, some of them will indeed buy it. Shmups are niche games to begin with. Add to this that indie games don't get the hype that titles from big developers and publishers get, and it's that much more difficult to get sales from people who have never heard of the game to begin with.

Quality (or how much appeal there is to the fanbase) will always determine how much a game sells. Contrary to popular belief, the motive for unauthorized downloading isn't really all about not having to spend any money. What it's really about is people wanting their money's worth. If we go back to music again, about 10 years ago when CD sales began to suffer, the record labels were quick to blame file sharing networks. In reality, sales were suffering because their product sucked and because their business model sucked. They had gotten rid of singles, decided to charge $20 for CD's with 2 or 3 good songs and 10 or 11 other filler songs, and they'd also taken force feeding the public band du jour to another label. People turned to file sharing because the record labels wouldn't provide a product that they wanted. File sharing provided access to singles and most importantly without DRM or other restrictions on how the songs could be used. The same goes for the games a few years ago which were using the Secrurom and Starforce nonsense. The hacked versions on p2p networks didn't have that stuff and hence provided the public with a better product. In the case of Fast Striker, the quality simply wasn't up to par, and when you consider that there are better shmups out there for free, it's not hard to see why it didn't sell too well.

[cools]

Again true, I just find it a far stretch that the majority (most) of established users here and on related other forums hadn't heard of this specific game, considering the hype that went on throughout the community.

Message board regulars make up a very small percentage of shooting game fans. Even then, someone being a regular doesn't mean that they're going to take notice of/read every single thread. I certainly don't. You have to understand that indie games don't get the same advertising and hype as companies like Ubisoft, Blizzard, Epic, Nintendo, etc.

Forgive my bluntness, but your registration date is somewhat fresh compared to Fast Striker's release date.

Quoting THE from another thread:

Fast Striker bombed on iOS too. Nobody bought it either.

And neither the MVS version nor the DC version was played/discussed on this forum.
It was mostly ignored. Why is that so?

The fact that forum member MJClark uploaded the ISO on torrent sites didn't help it's sales either. In fact sales dropped like a stone afterwards. A deal with a bigger distributor rescued us here.

I was close before discontinuing DC support for good...

I know that correlation != causation but that seems like more than just a coincidence.

[AntiFritz]

Again true, I just find it a far stretch that the majority (most) of established users here and on related other forums hadn't heard of this specific game, considering the hype that went on throughout the community.

Message board regulars make up a very small percentage of shooting game fans. Even then, someone being a regular doesn't mean that they're going to take notice of/read every single thread. I certainly don't. You have to understand that indie games don't get the same advertising and hype as companies like Ubisoft, Blizzard, Epic, Nintendo, etc.

Forgive my bluntness, but your registration date is somewhat fresh compared to Fast Striker's release date.

Quoting THE from another thread:

Fast Striker bombed on iOS too. Nobody bought it either.

And neither the MVS version nor the DC version was played/discussed on this forum.
It was mostly ignored. Why is that so?

The fact that forum member MJClark uploaded the ISO on torrent sites didn't help it's sales either. In fact sales dropped like a stone afterwards. A deal with a bigger distributor rescued us here.

I was close before discontinuing DC support for good...

I know that correlation != causation but that seems like more than just a coincidence.

Surely if the game was good enough it would have been discussed here right? Regardless of if we bought it or not. Crimzon clover is discussed quite often and i bet a large portion of us didnt buy it (I didn't but i didnt enjoy it enough to justify the purchase and didnt play more then a few hours).

[spl]

What the fuck is Fast Striker, is it a soccer game or something?

[system11]

Fast Striker bombed on iOS too. Nobody bought it either.

And neither the MVS version nor the DC version was played/discussed on this forum.
It was mostly ignored. Why is that so?

The fact that forum member MJClark uploaded the ISO on torrent sites didn't help it's sales either. In fact sales dropped like a stone afterwards. A deal with a bigger distributor rescued us here.

I was close before discontinuing DC support for good...

I know that correlation != causation but that seems like more than just a coincidence.

Indeed, and having someone on the board who pirated another members work was an untenable situation even without the whole issue of encouraging ellicit MAME builds.

My only regret over the situation is that I hadn't seen all of this when it happened.

[Vamos]

What the fuck is Fast Striker, is it a soccer game or something?

Its the greatest ever developed shmup of all time that bombed in the arcade on the dreamcast and on ios solely down to mjclark the most ruthless internet pirate of our time . Imagine if he didnt set up that torrent and all those 300 people or so didnt download the game it could of reached the popularity heights of ikaruga or even beyond , we will never know .

[psoslayer]

Meh. Fast Striker was solid and was played on score. http://ranking.ngdevteam.com/

There's also a huge thead around here, dunno what the beef is about.

[gray117]

Contrary to popular belief, the motive for unauthorized downloading isn't really all about not having to spend any money. What it's really about is people wanting their money's worth.

There is no argument for 'discovery' made here...

If the top downloads were the out-of-print/hard-to-find-material/grey-areas-of-copyright-ownership I may be following the reasoning.

Unfortunately, it's not like the sharing scene is filled with honor-bound-rare-treasure-hunters; the surest bets are also the most copied - what's someone doing with mario galaxy / gears / modern warefare / forza / fifa. Perhaps just checking a suspect review? Or that enough man hours have been pumped into producing a blockbuster title? ... I doubt it... Perhaps someone new to games seeing what the fuss is about after with finding a j-tagged system in the loft?

Despite the possible honorable (?) use of such systems by some people, there's also so many fairly well informed people who would be disrespectful enough to pay a penny for humble indie bundles etc. that I'm afraid I find it hard to believe that the majority, who search out products they already know about in this manner, do not simply want to get something for as little as possible.

There's no secret crazy skills that are required for authors to release work via alternative methods if they choose to do so. If they don't choose to do so, forcing their hand on this issue is simply your way of taking what you want and removing control.

Perhaps I'm a pessimist, but in the original too close for comfort I suggested perhaps buying into some merch if you chose an alternative rom procurement route: 'fag' and 'fuck yourself' appeared often in reply...

... Perhaps I'd be better off peeing downwind

/tries to work out which direction the wind is coming in.

[Nasirosuchus]

Again true, I just find it a far stretch that the majority (most) of established users here and on related other forums hadn't heard of this specific game, considering the hype that went on throughout the community.

Message board regulars make up a very small percentage of shooting game fans. Even then, someone being a regular doesn't mean that they're going to take notice of/read every single thread. I certainly don't. You have to understand that indie games don't get the same advertising and hype as companies like Ubisoft, Blizzard, Epic, Nintendo, etc.

Forgive my bluntness, but your registration date is somewhat fresh compared to Fast Striker's release date.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this.

[Moniker]

Can we close this thread? This thread has been terrible from start to finish.
[...]
Ever notice how the more someone writes, the less they have to say?
[...]
It doesn't matter how Fast Striker sold, scapegoats, popularity, or developer position. None of this is relevant.
He uploaded copyrighted, commercialized material of a forum member's work on another website using the same name.
End of discussion.

I'm so glad we are free from mjclark's insidious nihilism, and are finally free to enjoy Elixir's life-affirming enthusiasm.

In all honesty, everytime I read one of Elixir's posts, I die a little. Can't we do a Jesus/Barabbas trade, here? Elixir, that means you get to be Jesus.

[NTSC-J]

Forgive my bluntness, but your registration date is somewhat fresh compared to Fast Striker's release date.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this.

Its quite obvious really.

Not sure why I didnt notice it before.

But Nasirosuchus...is Fast Striker.

[Nasirosuchus]

Contrary to popular belief, the motive for unauthorized downloading isn't really all about not having to spend any money. What it's really about is people wanting their money's worth.

There is no argument for 'discovery' made here...

If the top downloads were the out-of-print/hard-to-find-material/grey-areas-of-copyright-ownership I may be following the reasoning.

Unfortunately, it's not like the sharing scene is filled with honor-bound-rare-treasure-hunters; the surest bets are also the most copied - what's someone doing with mario galaxy / gears / modern warefare / forza / fifa. Perhaps just checking a suspect review? Or that enough man hours have been pumped into producing a blockbuster title? ... I doubt it... Perhaps someone new to games seeing what the fuss is about after with finding a j-tagged system in the loft?

Despite the possible honorable (?) use of such systems by some people, there's also so many fairly well informed people who would be disrespectful enough to pay a penny for humble indie bundles etc. that I'm afraid I find it hard to believe that the majority, who search out products they already know about in this manner, do not simply want to get something for as little as possible.

There's no secret crazy skills that are required for authors to release work via alternative methods if they choose to do so. If they don't choose to do so, forcing their hand on this issue is simply your way of taking what you want and removing control.

Perhaps I'm a pessimist, but in the original too close for comfort I suggested perhaps buying into some merch if you chose an alternative rom procurement route: 'fag' and 'fuck yourself' appeared often in reply...

... Perhaps I'd be better off peeing downwind

/tries to work out which direction the wind is coming in.

I thought that IseeThings already explained it pretty well, so I'm just adding some other factors.

Those games that you listed are established titles which are backed by large developers and publishers with large advertising budgets and the ability to pay for good reviews that talk up the positive aspects and leave out the bad ones. Those games don't need p2p to be recognized. I don't know how else to explain that indie games don't have this going for them. People who come to this forum may know about it, but there have been plenty of people here who have stated that they were unaware of the game's existence before it was torrented. Besides, there's a whole world of gaming outside of this forum. Fast Striker is not Super Mario Galaxy or Call Of Duty and THE is not Nintendo or Activision. In order for a game from an indie developer to get that hype and recognition, people have to experience it. Those same people aren't going to spend money on unproven titles. So you see, without P2P, the game never builds any hype and remains relatively unknown.

That brings me to the other factor I've been talking about. Quality. This is especially important when you consider all of the other games that are available. There's also the fact that a lot of those other games are free. That being said, if the game isn't particularly good or at least not better than the competition, then you won't get any sales.

As far as removing control is concerned, there is no control. You can't control the internet, and you can't control peoples' buying habits. They pretty much already have their minds made up as far as what they want is concerned. The only thing that you can really control is making sure that your game offers quality and extras that make it better than the other ones and hence worth plunking down the cash.

[Nasirosuchus]

Forgive my bluntness, but your registration date is somewhat fresh compared to Fast Striker's release date.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this.

Its quite obvious really.

Not sure why I didnt notice it before.

But Nasirosuchus...is Fast Striker.

Nonsense.

[system11]

As far as removing control is concerned, there is no control. You can't control the internet, and you can't control peoples' buying habits. They pretty much already have their minds made up as far as what they want is concerned.

So you don't think people are entitled to create something, and then decide how it's distributed and sold (or taken)?

Think very carefully about that answer - put yourself in their shoes as people who make games/music/books or whatever else as a means to pay the rent and put food on the table.

Do you think you're entitled to the fruits of your labour?

[Elixir]

Can we close this thread? This thread has been terrible from start to finish.
[...]
Ever notice how the more someone writes, the less they have to say?
[...]
It doesn't matter how Fast Striker sold, scapegoats, popularity, or developer position. None of this is relevant.
He uploaded copyrighted, commercialized material of a forum member's work on another website using the same name.
End of discussion.

I'm so glad we are free from mjclark's insidious nihilism, and are finally free to enjoy Elixir's life-affirming enthusiasm.

In all honesty, everytime I read one of Elixir's posts, I die a little. Can't we do a Jesus/Barabbas trade, here? Elixir, that means you get to be Jesus.

I'm so glad we have running commentary here! 'ppreciate it, it really makes up for the thread's lack of MAME emulation discussion!

Oh fuck off. He uploaded a fellow forum member's game because he believed he was entitled to everything, just like the other 14 year olds, unemployed neckbeards, pasty white 20-somethings living with their parents, and poor as fuck freeloaders.



He didn't buy the game, he acquired the ISO and uploaded it. If one person is allowed to do this, everyone is.

It was his fault for using his own username on both sites and when confronted about it, he uses excuses like "it doesn't break any forum rules" or "what [he] does off-site is [his] business", as if to say it's a perfectly acceptable thing to do (he actually said this on Twitter). He hasn't learnt from his lesson at all.

Actually, that's pretty much it. I tried to simplify but apparently it's too abrasive (of what you quoted of myself). I'm sorry if reality hurts.

[Bananamatic]

14 year olds, unemployed neckbeards, pasty white 20-somethings living with their parents, and poor as fuck freeloaders.

still better than playing with dolls

[gray117]

I thought that IseeThings already explained it pretty well, so I'm just adding some other factors.

Those games that you listed are established titles which are backed by large developers and publishers with large advertising budgets and the ability to pay for good reviews that talk up the positive aspects and leave out the bad ones. Those games don't need p2p to be recognized. I don't know how else to explain that indie games don't have this going for them. People who come to this forum may know about it, but there have been plenty of people here who have stated that they were unaware of the game's existence before it was torrented. Besides, there's a whole world of gaming outside of this forum. Fast Striker is not Super Mario Galaxy or Call Of Duty and THE is not Nintendo or Activision. In order for a game from an indie developer to get that hype and recognition, people have to experience it. Those same people aren't going to spend money on unproven titles. So you see, without P2P, the game never builds any hype and remains relatively unknown.

That brings me to the other factor I've been talking about. Quality. This is especially important when you consider all of the other games that are available. There's also the fact that a lot of those other games are free. That being said, if the game isn't particularly good or at least not better than the competition, then you won't get any sales.

As far as removing control is concerned, there is no control. You can't control the internet, and you can't control peoples' buying habits. They pretty much already have their minds made up as far as what they want is concerned. The only thing that you can really control is making sure that your game offers quality and extras that make it better than the other ones and hence worth plunking down the cash.

You've not really explained anything... indie devs are poor, so instead of trailers and demos what they really need is a stranger to rip their game onto p2p services?

- Name me one stand out indie game that has become a success in this manner?

To the contrary; a promising trailer and a grass roots swell from igf or gdc or similar is in fact the path to indie success, don't you see? Because the rest of the world has, time and time again; with braid/flow/spelunky/frozen synapse/world of goo ...

The majority of people do not use p2p in order to discover or get value for money; some of the most easily available and highest thought of blockbuster games are the most taken - this is what the majority use such services for - people aren't taking these blockbusters to make difficult/mysterious value judgments or to see whats going on in an un-publicized niche.

Nor are they doing this to discover indie games - they go to p2p after they know of their existence, probably after you tubing it. They want them, they're there, they take them. There may well be a number of decent people who choose to opt in after this and purchase, but this cycle is not an incentive to pay. I also highly doubt the p2p communities are as proactive and supportive as the myriad indie gaming communities.

You can't control people; but that's different from what I was stressing - respecting an author's control over his/her creation.

Don't care about the control/can't control the internet? - This is the attitude you're asking developers to trust/respect to pay them if/when they release new products/services? These are the attitudes that give you a penny even for quality games.

Within this narrow thread - it wasn't the actual torrent that got fast striker noticed it was the banning of a well known user that alerted people to the existence of the torrent and therefore the game [for the relative few that had not bothered to check out ng dev in the past year or so].

[Estebang]

Name me one stand out indie game that has become a success in this manner?

You've not really explained anything... indie devs are poor

You can't go spouting off this stuff before you actually define what "indie" is.

[Bee Cool]

14 year olds, unemployed neckbeards, pasty white 20-somethings living with their parents, and poor as fuck freeloaders.

still better than playing with dolls

Shots fired.