Too close for comfort? the revival?

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hzt
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by hzt »

BPzeBanshee wrote: Woah woah wait a minute. You're calling mjclark's doll thing controversial?
It is basically the same as having a picture of dude in black face saying "lol niggers" (all right not the last bit)

BPzeBanshee banned.
Gus wrote:Long live stealing from the poor and giving to the rich!
Gus banned.
Nasirosuchus wrote:Pathetic.
Nasirosuchus banned.
Moniker wrote:Not sure I approve of the banning of mjclark.
Moniker banned.
bcass wrote:Same here.
bcass banned.

man I wish I could ban people
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TrevHead (TVR)
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

Piracy is a grey area with most ppl doing it in some way or another, but I think most ppl have a genral idea of how much is "too close for comfort", mjclark certainly went past that barrier imo, even though he didnt post links to it onsite, the fact he used the same name was a silly thing to do imo, it linked him back to this site with all the repercussions that entailed. Was it against the rules of the forum? nope, but this place like anywhere IRL is a private club thats owned by system11. A pub might only have rules about fighting & stealing, but chatting up the landlord's wife will still get you barred even if its not written in the rulebook.

When mjclark wasnt semi trolling in the seven seas of this thread and others like it, he was actually quite a good poster, and tbh im sad to see him go. Maybe the powers that be might him back on the forum if they change their minds in the future and the offended party (THE) is fine with it.

That said one thing that does seem evident is how difficult it is in condemning pirates because most of us do it in some form or another. if we did that would make us hypocrites, all we can do is debate piracy as a whole, rather than take the person to task. This isnt a good thing in any community or society
Last edited by TrevHead (TVR) on Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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cools
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by cools »

hzt wrote:man I wish I could ban people
Run your own forum 8)
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BIL
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by BIL »

If one good thing comes out of all this, we can now confirm the SHUMPS MOLE was indeed system11. :cool: Case closed!
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Gus
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Gus »

I'm pretty pro-piracy myself but mjclark just took it too far with torrenting a newly released Fast Striker and badgering the MAME devs to include games Cave are still making money off.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Udderdude »

I guess we finally found out how close "too close for comfort" is. >_>
Chaos Phoenixma
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Chaos Phoenixma »

It's not like anyone can just register under any name after all? Do we have proof that the guy who uploaded the game and the guy here were the same?


It would be horrible for anyone here to be banned just cause someone else saw their username here and decided to use it to upload something elsewhere.


And I am generally antipiracy as long as stuff is still being sold new and is recent. For older Arcade stuff and older generation consoles, the developers are no longer making money on it, so it's not as bothersome.

Pirating something new would be too close for comfort though.
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Elixir
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Elixir »

Chaos Phoenixma wrote:It's not like anyone can just register under any name after all? Do we have proof that the guy who uploaded the game and the guy here were the same?
Yes.

Can we close this thread? This thread has been terrible from start to finish.
Nasirosuchus
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Nasirosuchus »

I'm black, and I wasn't offended by his avatar. It seems to me that he was making fun of it more than anything. Besides, there are members here who have avatars that are way worse than his. Shit, just look at the artwork and cut scene imagery in some of these games.

Big name publishers love to use file sharing as a scapegoat for poor sales and it's just as pitiful for small and indie devs to do the same. Fast Striker is a game in a genre that has a very small following, and it wasn't exactly a blockbuster, either. Even games from Cave, Milestone, etc don't have very high sales.

It doesn't matter whether or not you're a big name publisher or an indie dev. If your game is good and well-advertised, then it will sell. If it isn't, then it won't. It also helps not to demonize your core fanbase as "thieves" and "pirates". The music industry had to learn this the hard way.
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Elixir
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Elixir »

Nasirosuchus wrote:I'm black, and I wasn't offended by his avatar. It seems to me that he was making fun of it more than anything. Besides, there are members here who have avatars that are way worse than his. Shit, just look at the artwork and cut scene imagery in some of these games.

Big name publishers love to use file sharing as a scapegoat for poor sales and it's just as pitiful for small and indie devs to do the same. Fast Striker is a game in a genre that has a very small following, and it wasn't exactly a blockbuster, either. Even games from Cave, Milestone, etc don't have very high sales.

It doesn't matter whether or not you're a big name publisher or an indie dev. If your game is good and well-advertised, then it will sell. If it isn't, then it won't. It also helps not to demonize your core fanbase as "thieves" and "pirates". The music industry had to learn this the hard way.
It doesn't matter how Fast Striker sold, scapegoats, popularity, or developer position. None of this is relevant.

He uploaded copyrighted, commercialized material of a forum member's work on another website using the same name.

End of discussion.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Elixir wrote:It doesn't matter how Fast Striker sold, scapegoats, popularity, or developer position. None of this is relevant.

He uploaded copyrighted, commercialized material of a forum member's work on another website using the same name.

End of discussion.
Maybe it'll stick this time!
Nasirosuchus
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Nasirosuchus »

Elixir wrote:
Nasirosuchus wrote:I'm black, and I wasn't offended by his avatar. It seems to me that he was making fun of it more than anything. Besides, there are members here who have avatars that are way worse than his. Shit, just look at the artwork and cut scene imagery in some of these games.

Big name publishers love to use file sharing as a scapegoat for poor sales and it's just as pitiful for small and indie devs to do the same. Fast Striker is a game in a genre that has a very small following, and it wasn't exactly a blockbuster, either. Even games from Cave, Milestone, etc don't have very high sales.

It doesn't matter whether or not you're a big name publisher or an indie dev. If your game is good and well-advertised, then it will sell. If it isn't, then it won't. It also helps not to demonize your core fanbase as "thieves" and "pirates". The music industry had to learn this the hard way.
It doesn't matter how Fast Striker sold, scapegoats, popularity, or developer position. None of this is relevant.

He uploaded copyrighted, commercialized material of a forum member's work on another website using the same name.

End of discussion.
Other than the part about the avatar, my post had nothing to do with mjclark. I've even stated that it's system11's site and that I wasn't asking him to bring mjclark back.

My post was a response to the discussion that was going on about copyrighted material, file sharing, sales, etc. Perhaps you should have taken the time to note that before you replied.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by IseeThings »

Having talked to other developers who have also worked on indie games I think there are multiple factors.

For a lot of releases with no piracy your game will simply slip under the radar, you're competing against companies with far bigger advertising budgets, who can churn out any crap with limited gameplay but high value visuals and reviews which are for all intents and purposes paid for, completely glossing over any flaws in the games. This seems to have one outcome

a) Nobody notices, nobody cares, practically no sales.

For anything which catches enough peoples eyes there will be a level of piracy, this seems to go two ways.

b) people pirate your game, decide it's good, talk about it, it ends up being mentioned everywhere (social media, reviews etc.) more people pirate it, but people buy it as well. Even if 20 copies are pirated for every one sold you're still selling more than if nobody had noticed your title. Those 20 people wouldn't have been your customers before, but are essentially free marketing drones.

c) people pirate your game, decide it's crap, don't recommend it to friends, and post damning reviews of it. In this case, yeah you probably won't get any sales

There is another outcome, but that is simply to get lucky, some games go viral, attract a cult following and sell massive numbers. There's no real science behind that, sometimes it just happens like all the not-so-funny internet memes. Planning for that to happen is just bad business.

This is how things work with digital downloads at least, of course when you're dealing with limited runs of physical games which are practically guaranteed to sell out then I'm not sure why you care too much about piracy in the first place. If you've sold all your stock anyway you've lost nothing, and if you're offering people special packages with lots of bonus physical items (posters, booklets, development artwork etc.) then they're getting real physical added value anyway, something which downloads can never offer.

Fast Striker, honestly, I saw some screenshots and videos of it, I personally deemed it not even worth pirating, sorry to be blunt, but it didn't look like it had anything to offer over games which are legally available for free anyway. Even the new one, despite looking rather cool for a Neo game is just Turrican, which incidentally Factor 5 offer for free ;-)

As discussed in other threads shooters don't have much value to the mainstream, people buying them for PCB shop prices are already hardcore collector types, not the ones who think $5 for a shooter is too steep. Arcades buying them are already going to see them as a risky purchase if they don't see much interest in the genre and are likely to see them as too pricey to fit an aging old cabinet with unless they know there is a following. Emulation and piracy isn't going to make a great difference to either one of those scenarios.

Ports are an area more likely to be affected, but again by offering a package which seems good value (which as I've said, the RSG Deathsmiles package was) then you're giving people reason to buy the games regardless. The emulation in MAME is incomparable to a well done modern port offering bonus features and the like, and pure arcade ports haven't done well for a long time now regardless of emulation (one of the big problems with the Dreamcast is that most of the titles were direct arcade ports, and the buying public were no longer interested in direct arcade ports because they seem too shallow and lack content) You might get the occasional cheapskate who changes their buying habbits based on what is / isn't emulated, but for the majority of the population their mind is already made up and the main way you're going to lose customers is not through piracy but instead moronic sales tactics like one-time DLC, paid DLC for stuff which should have been in the original package, or region locking (be it physical or online store) I'll go out of my way and say the number of people who haven't purchased various ports due to region locking and uncertainties surrounding importing is far greater than the number who haven't due to piracy and emulation.

Also of note, a number of people I know purchased their own copies of Deathsmiles after I let them borrow my disc, they'd never even heard of the game before that, but after borrowing the disc picked up a copy within a week.
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bcass
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by bcass »

That pretty much nails it. I'd never even heard of Fast Striker before mjclark had been banned.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Udderdude »

There have been threads for it around here.

It would be nice if there was a demo version of Fast Striker, but let's be honest, are they really going to go through the effort of making a special version that plays in an emulator
or port it directly to PC? Not likely.

I have never played it myself, only seen vids. From my limited experience, it seems like they shoved a ton of conflicting scoring systems into one place and hoped that the players would figure it out.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Bee Cool »

IseeThings wrote:
Fast Striker, honestly, I saw some screenshots and videos of it, I personally deemed it not even worth pirating, sorry to be blunt, but it didn't look like it had anything to offer over games which are legally available for free anyway. Even the new one, despite looking rather cool for a Neo game is just Turrican, which incidentally Factor 5 offer for free ;-)
Don't be sorry, the games look like trash.
RIP in peaces mjclark and Estebang
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TrevHead (TVR)
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

Ive yet to play FS and I might buy it if I can emulate it, of which I'll be testing mjclark's version to see if it works, same goes for Gunlord which to me looks great

BTW I quite like FS graphical style as it reminds me of Mars Matrix
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Vamos »

TrevHead (TVR) wrote:Ive yet to play FS and I might buy it if I can emulate it, of which I'll be testing mjclark's version to see if it works, same goes for Gunlord which to me looks great

BTW I quite like FS graphical style as it reminds me of Mars Matrix
Dont be fooled it may have a similar graphic style but it controls like shit and isnt anywhere near as pretty which is really saying something , i bought it sold within a week even torrented it after for a second chance cleared a couple modes and ended up throwing the cd-r away.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by BIL »

Udderdude wrote:I guess we finally found out how close "too close for comfort" is. >_>
MJ.C. died so that we might know. Never forget. Buy a golliwog. Or an old Noddy book.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by gray117 »

For publicity/demos its up to the author; personally - especially these days - I don't see how pirating increases exposure, unless it's because individuals spend more time looking to steal stuff than they do looking for news and/or actually communicating with friends.

Whilst some apply laxness towards potential copyright claims in favor/appreciation of exposure, it's sadly the case that smaller businesses do not have the depth weather such infringements, nor the means to fight them should they wish to. Furthermore, such events can greatly effect the future investments or deals with such companies from third parties in the future.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Drachenherz »

I didn't agree with MrPirateMan (as I liked to call him hehe) in quite a few views, but somehow it saddens me to see him gone.
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Nasirosuchus
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Nasirosuchus »

gray117 wrote:For publicity/demos its up to the author; personally - especially these days - I don't see how pirating increases exposure, unless it's because individuals spend more time looking to steal stuff than they do looking for news and/or actually communicating with friends.

Whilst some apply laxness towards potential copyright claims in favor/appreciation of exposure, it's sadly the case that smaller businesses do not have the depth weather such infringements, nor the means to fight them should they wish to. Furthermore, such events can greatly effect the future investments or deals with such companies from third parties in the future.
In order for a CD, movie, game, or software title to sell, it has to be experienced. The internet provides a way for smaller developers to get exposure that they otherwise wouldn't be able to get. They certainly don't have the money buy television time for commercials like big publishers do. Of course, this means that your work has to be good. If it's mediocre, then the exposure will bring bad feedback, negative reviews, etc. If it's good, then more people will take notice of it and buy it. If you take file sharing away, then you simply won't get any exposure and your game won't sell since no one knows about it.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Udderdude wrote:It would be nice if there was a demo version of Fast Striker, but let's be honest, are they really going to go through the effort of making a special version that plays in an emulator
or port it directly to PC? Not likely.
I was thinking about this earlier. It would be more work, but perhaps not substantially more if you just include enough stuff to get the first level running.

More to the point I think this is probably what has to be done. Videos and word of mouth are great, but you don't get the feeling you "need" to have something sometimes, and sometimes you regret buying a game based on the video (as ISeeThings mentioned).

For a small developer like THE there is very little wiggle room to hope for the kindness of stranger pirates.

I think the real truth of the matter is that piracy can help a genre, but it probably won't help a particular product when there are alternatives. If you love a genre, and you're a pirate, it's very likely you are going to spend the money to get things that are not available for free that you still want.

Of course, the "big names" in gaming have other ways to fight the problem - ignoring DRM and the like, there are always micropayment models and other online features. Maybe people ought to start running their own online ranking servers for otherwise free games? It would be a new burden to have to learn how to set up such a server, run it, and defend it from all the hackers, of course...but it might be something to get some dough. All told, though, these methods are going to be out of the question for many small devs.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by gray117 »

Nasirosuchus wrote:
gray117 wrote:For publicity/demos its up to the author; personally - especially these days - I don't see how pirating increases exposure, unless it's because individuals spend more time looking to steal stuff than they do looking for news and/or actually communicating with friends.

Whilst some apply laxness towards potential copyright claims in favor/appreciation of exposure, it's sadly the case that smaller businesses do not have the depth weather such infringements, nor the means to fight them should they wish to. Furthermore, such events can greatly effect the future investments or deals with such companies from third parties in the future.
In order for a CD, movie, game, or software title to sell, it has to be experienced. The internet provides a way for smaller developers to get exposure that they otherwise wouldn't be able to get. They certainly don't have the money buy television time for commercials like big publishers do. Of course, this means that your work has to be good. If it's mediocre, then the exposure will bring bad feedback, negative reviews, etc. If it's good, then more people will take notice of it and buy it. If you take file sharing away, then you simply won't get any exposure and your game won't sell since no one knows about it.
Er... what? Internet == file sharing and nothing else according to you? ... I was making the point that the internet [think twitter/youtube/facebook/this forum] has made it easier than ever before for customers to hear about, share, and seek out information. I still fail to see how hearing about a game via a file sharing service is easier than via any of those other methods.

You may argue that to be fully experienced a game needs to be played, and if a game doesn't have a demo then this is problematic, but then that could also be said to be the duty of only the full product. Besides if you're undecided there's often enough review material out there to help inform you on these articles even for indie games. Furthermore, some games/demos - less so with typical 'arcade games' admittedly - are simply ill-purposed to reflect the full nature of the game. In these respects I think it's right to consider and respect the author's choice.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by BryanM »

Elixir wrote:Can we close this thread? This thread has been terrible from start to finish.
The technical posts and a lot of the stuff mentioned whenever something actually happens have been fantastic.

The religion and ethics make-out fests..... have buried the useful stuff.

/BryanM> adds +1 shit posts to thread
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Nasirosuchus
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Nasirosuchus »

gray117 wrote:
Nasirosuchus wrote:
gray117 wrote:For publicity/demos its up to the author; personally - especially these days - I don't see how pirating increases exposure, unless it's because individuals spend more time looking to steal stuff than they do looking for news and/or actually communicating with friends.

Whilst some apply laxness towards potential copyright claims in favor/appreciation of exposure, it's sadly the case that smaller businesses do not have the depth weather such infringements, nor the means to fight them should they wish to. Furthermore, such events can greatly effect the future investments or deals with such companies from third parties in the future.
In order for a CD, movie, game, or software title to sell, it has to be experienced. The internet provides a way for smaller developers to get exposure that they otherwise wouldn't be able to get. They certainly don't have the money buy television time for commercials like big publishers do. Of course, this means that your work has to be good. If it's mediocre, then the exposure will bring bad feedback, negative reviews, etc. If it's good, then more people will take notice of it and buy it. If you take file sharing away, then you simply won't get any exposure and your game won't sell since no one knows about it.
Er... what? Internet == file sharing and nothing else according to you? ... I was making the point that the internet [think twitter/youtube/facebook/this forum] has made it easier than ever before for customers to hear about, share, and seek out information. I still fail to see how hearing about a game via a file sharing service is easier than via any of those other methods.

You may argue that to be fully experienced a game needs to be played, and if a game doesn't have a demo then this is problematic, but then that could also be said to be the duty of only the full product. Besides if you're undecided there's often enough review material out there to help inform you on these articles even for indie games. Furthermore, some games/demos - less so with typical 'arcade games' admittedly - are simply ill-purposed to reflect the full nature of the game. In these respects I think it's right to consider and respect the author's choice.
For starters, I'll state once again that I'm not going to discuss what's right and wrong.

You've read it here yourself. Most people had never even heard of Fast Striker until the torrent became available. Reviews, youtube videos, and facebook pages don't do a lot of good if no one knows about the game or the developer. The only way it's going to get that exposure is if people experience it. You've said that should be be accomplished by getting the full product, but people are going to be very reluctant to spend money on a game which they've never heard about, much less played. Without file sharing, pretty much no one hears about these games. If no one hears about them, then the developer is going to have a pretty hard time racking up any sales.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Vamos »

Nasirosuchus wrote:
For starters, I'll state once again that I'm not going to discuss what's right and wrong.

You've read it here yourself. Most people had never even heard of Fast Striker until the torrent became available. Reviews, youtube videos, and facebook pages don't do a lot of good if no one knows about the game or the developer. The only way it's going to get that exposure is if people experience it. You've said that should be be accomplished by getting the full product, but people are going to be very reluctant to spend money on a game which they've never heard about, much less played. Without file sharing, pretty much no one hears about these games. If no one hears about them, then the developer is going to have a pretty hard time racking up any sales.
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cools
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by cools »

How precisely do reviews etc not contribute? There's the exposure. If people aren't checking games news and review sites how is the dev supposed to get the word out? There was extensive coverage here too.

If peoples only ports of call for finding out about new games are file sharing sites you can hardly blame the developer for not promoting their product. FS had more than enough.
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by IseeThings »

cools wrote:How precisely do reviews etc not contribute? There's the exposure. If people aren't checking games news and review sites how is the dev supposed to get the word out? There was extensive coverage here too.

If peoples only ports of call for finding out about new games are file sharing sites you can hardly blame the developer for not promoting their product. FS had more than enough.
Depends how much you trust corporate reviews.

Too many of them are nothing but re-worded press releases with screenshots supplied by the manufacturer based on builds which aren't final, so they're not allowed to mention critical bugs which end up in the final release anyway.

Indie games suffer from this problem just as much as large titles, it reminds me greatly of the dying days of the Amiga, where every magazine except Amiga Power would be giving game 80-90% ratings despite them containing critical flaws*, it was almost seen as a crime to give an Amiga game a bad score, and doing so led to major fallouts, AP being refused games unless they guaranteed a good review etc. I'm seeing much the same today with some people seeming to think that calling out a bad game as a bad game just because it's an indie release from a small developer is some kind of crime against humanity. Everybody can make bad games.

* http://amr.abime.net/review_1774 is a good example
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Re: Too close for comfort? the revival?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Nasirosuchus wrote:Most people had never even heard of Fast Striker until the torrent became available.
That is irrelevant.

Shmups Forum is a community, and we can expect more from our members.

We were given the opportunity to speak with (and even openly criticize) the developer, who is a member of these boards, and ask whatever questions we wished.
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