The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Emuser]

Staying in paths is a whole other hell that would take a ton of time to understand completely. In stage 2 at least(and from what I've experienced, usually later stages too), if you miss a bee or die from the midboss until the warning screen for the boss, you're kicked out of the path.

THEN there are ways back in mid-way through the game.

At that point I would have just restarted though so I have no idea how that really works.

2nd loop is either all normal path in Omote or all alternate path in Ura regardless of what the player does.

[Obscura]

Staying in paths is a whole other hell that would take a ton of time to understand completely. In stage 2 at least(and from what I've experienced, usually later stages too), if you miss a bee or die from the midboss until the warning screen for the boss, you're kicked out of the path.

Definitely wrong; I don't even know where all of the bees are in stage 2, and I've died in the second half of the stage, and have still gotten it. I'll try to record something with an intentional suicide in the second half of the stage.

[Bananamatic]

i think you're kicked out only when you die on a midboss

[Shepardus]

I've managed to stay in the route (or at least get all the Ura midbosses) all the way through stage 5 and I don't even know how many bees there are, much less where they are. Unless I managed to re-enter the route every stage I'm pretty sure you don't have to get all the bees, though not dying to the midboss might be an actual condition.

[Emuser]

If you are able to get the footage, it isn't as important to me but I'm curious. My head hurts enough as it is dwindling down all of the specific details for the entry. I'm glad that there is finally some damn closure. I may mess around later tomorrow with stage 2-->stage 3 entries, 1 with a death only in the later stage portion, 1 with missing a bee on purpose. Done for now, entry specifics were bugging me for ages.

[Obscura]

http://www.twitch.tv/pbacque/b/622049208

Here you go. It took me a billion tries to get on-route in the first place (it's 3 in the morning here, so I can barely play at all, I'm so damn tired), and then I actually ended up needing a continue in stage 3 because I'm playing so badly right now (roflmao), but it misses about 5 bees in stage 2 (even ones I've revealed!), dies in the second half of the stage, and still gets stage 3 ura midboss. Yes, even after the continue (which kinda surprised me, actually).

EDIT: @Shepardus, I can confirm that not dying to the midboss is a condition.

DOUBLE EDIT: Also, fuck, are those blue bullets in st 2 boss third form first pattern aimed or fixed (the pattern with the pink swastika spiral)? Every time I think I know, it does something that surprises me.

[Cagar]

http://www.twitch.tv/pbacque/b/622049208

Here you go. It took me a billion tries to get on-route in the first place (it's 3 in the morning here, so I can barely play at all, I'm so damn tired), and then I actually ended up needing a continue in stage 3 because I'm playing so badly right now (roflmao), but it misses about 5 bees in stage 2 (even ones I've revealed!), dies in the second half of the stage, and still gets stage 3 ura midboss. Yes, even after the continue (which kinda surprised me, actually).

EDIT: @Shepardus, I can confirm that not dying to the midboss is a condition.

DOUBLE EDIT: Also, fuck, are those blue bullets in st 2 boss third form first pattern aimed or fixed (the pattern with the pink swastika spiral)? Every time I think I know, it does something that surprises me.

Staying in paths is a whole other hell that would take a ton of time to understand completely. In stage 2 at least(and from what I've experienced, usually later stages too), if you miss a bee or die from the midboss until the warning screen for the boss, you're kicked out of the path.

Definitely wrong; I don't even know where all of the bees are in stage 2, and I've died in the second half of the stage, and have still gotten it. I'll try to record something with an intentional suicide in the second half of the stage.

OK OK OK
TIME TO MOVE ON

[Emuser]

http://www.twitch.tv/pbacque/b/622049208

Here you go. It took me a billion tries to get on-route in the first place (it's 3 in the morning here, so I can barely play at all, I'm so damn tired), and then I actually ended up needing a continue in stage 3 because I'm playing so badly right now (roflmao), but it misses about 5 bees in stage 2 (even ones I've revealed!), dies in the second half of the stage, and still gets stage 3 ura midboss. Yes, even after the continue (which kinda surprised me, actually).

EDIT: @Shepardus, I can confirm that not dying to the midboss is a condition.

DOUBLE EDIT: Also, fuck, are those blue bullets in st 2 boss third form first pattern aimed or fixed (the pattern with the pink swastika spiral)? Every time I think I know, it does something that surprises me.

Unfortunately the VOD above doesn't show stage 3's midboss to show what you mean. Just to elaborate on this since it's been years and after double check my doubts:

Once a midboss can be hit, you cannot die from that moment until you collect all 9 bees. Technically, they set a flag for denial of staying in the alternate path on the next stage if the x2 multiplier is never met for the final bee on the current stage, which happens upon getting the 9th bee with no deaths from the 1st bee collected to the last. Especially on stage 4, you can die after getting the last bee bonus and still see stage 5's alternate path. Whatever happens across the stages though, even though you may be on the alternate path for the whole first loop, it all must stay within the general Ura loop requirements of 3 bombs max/1 death max/all 45 bees.

I would suggest posting further DFK stuff in the topic Cagar linked above since we have gone on for quite some time in a general thread...

[Obscura]

Sorry, the stream was too long, and it got cut off into two vids because twitch sucks. Here's the last 1:20 of it, that hits the midboss:
http://www.twitch.tv/pbacque/b/622049557

But yeah, in that vid, I intentionally died on one of the big tanks in the second half of ST 2, let something like 3 revealed bees pass, continued in stage 3, and still got the Ura midboss.

(I'll crosspost this to both threads)

[LordHypnos]

Snip 3rd car

On the 3rd train car I wait for the first two sets of pink bullets to pass, then I tap dodge ever so lightly to avoid the aimed blue shots. Then when my shield charges I finish it off.

Any chance you could give me a bit more detail? Where do you position yourself in the beginning, and what do you mean by "wait?" I don't think you can really stay still ever during that car (unless you're using the safespot, but it's a bit tricky to actually find). Are we talking about the same thing?

[Stevens]

Any chance you could give me a bit more detail?

MOAR DETAILZ?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3S3H1PRHe0

It isn't an actual run, just elite mode. Started my ship on level 7 since that's what my ship is usually on when I start stage 5. 3rd car is at 40 seconds.

After watching the replay I realized my description of what I do on the 3rd car is vastly different from what I actually do. That will teach me to try and do it from memory.

Each time it fires it fires two arcs of bullets. A fast big bullet and a slower smaller right behind the big one. Starting at the bottom I just tap dodge to the left to dodge the big bullet. I only ever worry about dodging the big bullets. The smaller ones are inconsequential since they follow the big bullets you're dodging them by default. After two to four tap dodges my mosquito is recharged and I go to town.

Hope it helps.

Also my wife was nice enough to hold the camera.

[ACSeraph]

Powerups getting stuck in the floor/ceiling in Darius II. Fuck you Taito. Fuck. You.

[Jonst]

Fuck you volvox!!

[LordHypnos]

MOAR DETAILZ?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3S3H1PRHe0

It isn't an actual run, just elite mode. Started my ship on level 7 since that's what my ship is usually on when I start stage 5. 3rd car is at 40 seconds.

After watching the replay I realized my description of what I do on the 3rd car is vastly different from what I actually do. That will teach me to try and do it from memory.

Each time it fires it fires two arcs of bullets. A fast big bullet and a slower smaller right behind the big one. Starting at the bottom I just tap dodge to the left to dodge the big bullet. I only ever worry about dodging the big bullets. The smaller ones are inconsequential since they follow the big bullets you're dodging them by default. After two to four tap dodges my mosquito is recharged and I go to town.

Hope it helps.

Also my wife was nice enough to hold the camera.

Thx! It does look like you pretty much do what I do though, but are just better at it
That being said though, I have had pretty good luck the past few times that I've played stage 5. Maybe I'm getting better at shmups?

On the topic of grievances, it's really only a partial grievance, but it's really annoying to have the first 4/6 stages go the best they ever have (pretty much) in a game, and then screw up in almost every way imaginable in the fifth stage after performing it fine in practice mode, earlier. But I can't really complain, because I still scored another pink digit 1cc .

[Stevens]

Maybe I'm getting better at shmups?

No doubt. Like anything else the more you do it the better you get. Lots of shmup skills transfer from game to game. It is the reason when I went back to MM after a year break it seemed easier.

On the topic of grievances, it's really only a partial grievance, but it's really annoying to have the first 4/6 stages go the best they ever have (pretty much) in a game, and then screw up in almost every way imaginable in the fifth stage after performing it fine in practice mode, earlier. But I can't really complain, because I still scored another pink digit 1cc .

It was the day for that yesterday. I reach the 4th stage boss with 3 ships in reserve. I proceed to die twice on the whiplash attack and then NO MISS THE REST OF THAT FUCKING ASSHOLE. Ugh. I rarely die once on the whip attack let alone twice.

MM, and shmups in general, always find a way to make you suffer for the slightest error. That is part of why I love them. After all the failure, the messed up runs, the stupid mistakes, and occasional losing your shit, you get that moment of perfection (whether it be a 1 CC or a high score) and that makes it worth it.

And they're just awesome.

[Ikazu-san]

[Blinge]

ohhh mannn I feel ya there

[cicada88]

[CloudyMusic]

Good old casual sexism.

[cicada88]

Good ol' casual sex.

QFT


And for you unfortunate fools who play STG but can't speak Famicom--it's a chart from the Gun-Nac manual describing the game's difficulty levels.


Level 1 (Stress Reduction Mode) - Beginners · Girls

Level 2 (Normal Mode) - Intermediate Players · Boys

Level 3 (Hard Mode) - Advanced Players · Gamers

Level 4 (Insane Mode) - Experts · Androids

[Jonst]

Get to volvox 3 times in a row. Better scoring, same old stupid mistakes. Can't believe i haven't fucking done this already?! It's not even that hard, which I think makes it feel twice as frustrating...

[Blinge]

You managing to get all your bombs out before you die?

[Jonst]

Yeah, I'd rather use the bomb for the hell of it rather than waste it by dying. By the time I'm at the end, I don't trust myself to not bomb through the first couple of patterns, therefore leaving no resources for the final patterns... If I could regularly make 15 mil and get that extend it would be fine, or not make so many stupid mistakes up to volvox!

[LordHypnos]

So, ignoring the fact that enemy collisions are an entirely unfun mechanic that should have be done away with years ago along with speed-up powerups, and full powerdowns on loss of life (except when you either have a perfectly adequate weapon unpowered-up, or get several powerups directly after dying, or something like that), it really does knock RefleX down several notches that the shield doesn't actually protect you from enemies. So much good stuff going on, Siter Skain, why'd you have to go and do that!?

Also the lifebar is legitimately annoying, but considerably easier to adjust to.

Oh, also enemies that can damage you on contact coming up at you from the back of the screen is pretty bullshit, especially when not telegraphed (lookin' at you stage 2B!)

[S_Fang]

So, ignoring the fact that enemy collisions are an entirely unfun mechanic that should have be done away with years ago along with speed-up powerups, and full powerdowns on loss of life (except when you either have a perfectly adequate weapon unpowered-up, or get several powerups directly after dying, or something like that), it really does knock RefleX down several notches that the shield doesn't actually protect you from enemies. So much good stuff going on, Siter Skain, why'd you have to go and do that!?

Same thing for me, especially when you try to point-blank enemies in games like Ketsui and DoDonPachi for scores and suicide-bullet cancelling. Like, why only Mars Matrix and Metal Slug did this right.

Also the lifebar is legitimately annoying, but considerably easier to adjust to.

As long is like a different version of lives like Espgaluda and 194X series, is fine. But if the deal is like Carrier Wing or Guwange, then screw them and off I go with Euroshmp or StarFox's health systems.

Oh, also enemies that can damage you on contact coming up at you from the back of the screen is pretty bullshit, especially when not telegraphed (lookin' at you stage 2B!)

Ghost Pilot is the most fraudolent offender in this regard: I died soo many times just for those stupid planes from behind.

[Stevens]

So, ignoring the fact that enemy collisions are an entirely unfun mechanic that should have be done away with years ago

One of the things I like about MM, and to a lesser extent Zero Gunner 2. Hopefully I'll add that to my 1 CC list later this year.

[Squire Grooktook]

So, ignoring the fact that enemy collisions are an entirely unfun mechanic that should have be done away with years ago along with speed-up powerups,

Disagree myself. I love hard hitting kamekaze zakos and bad guys who's movement patterns freak you out, and I much prefer Contra's surgical precision and speed over Metal Slug's messy chaos.

[LordHypnos]

So, ignoring the fact that enemy collisions are an entirely unfun mechanic that should have be done away with years ago along with speed-up powerups,

Disagree myself. I love hard hitting kamekaze zakos and bad guys who's movement patterns freak you out, and I much prefer Contra's surgical precision and speed over Metal Slug's messy chaos.

FWIW, if I were to dissect the issue, I would probably add a few qualifiers to the statement (though I suspect we'd still disagree). I phrased it that way just to see what kinds of reactions I'd get (Surprisingly, I actually got two agreements , was not expecting that)

Incedentally, I would say that this is a good point in regards to how much precision Mars Matrix requires. Really not that much (You get giant gaps between bullets most of the time, too!). Should be a better choice for sloppy players like me than anything CAVE or Touhou. Hell, Stevens got like 90% of a 1cc thinking that the ship hitbox was somewhere it was not. I was trying to argue this at one point in another thread, but the shmup-o who I was arguing with wasn't buying it, for some reason

Same thing for me, especially when you try to point-blank enemies in games like Ketsui and DoDonPachi for scores and suicide-bullet cancelling. Like, why only Mars Matrix and Metal Slug did this right.

Yeah, this is the main thing. I don't care really if I'm not trying to point blank enemies, because it's usually pretty easy to avoid unless they have way too much HP and are kamikazes / scroll down the screen or something, but when you have to point blank it's so easy to just be that one pixel too close and die (possibly losing your whole run depending). Although any shield should definitely protect you from enemies at least as much as it does from bullets. Still, I'll always prefer no enemy collisions

I wouldn't say the lifebar in RefleX is that bad, as far as things go, but it just makes me play so sloppy when I get minimal feedback for dying, and can take that many hits (6, to be precise). Also sometimes end up taking multiple at once because invincibility doesn't last that long (and sometimes what's killing me is confusing temporarily).

I don't think there's any excuse for untelegraphed / poorly telegraphed enemies from the back of the screen that can actually kill you on contact, though. Perhaps in a game with backshot, just because it's could maybe be taken for granted to stay in the middle of the screen, then.

[Blinge]

Taking collision damage from zako is quite important for Reflex surely: otherwise you'd be able to just shield through nearly all the projectiles thrown at you.

Also LordHypnos = Mr. Vertizontal

[LordHypnos]

Taking collision damage from zako is quite important for Reflex surely: otherwise you'd be able to just shield through nearly all the projectiles thrown at you.

Also LordHypnos = Mr. Vertizontal

Yeah, I suppose the shield does perhaps have too long of a gauge to make it nullify all damage (wasn't really thinking of that). Fair enough. couldn't they have made some bullets that it doesn't nullify though, instead? I mean in like every other shield game you want to get right up into your enemy's grill when shielding most of the time.

Also yes, vertizontals are the best. Because vertical scrolling / overhead perspective makes dodging easier, and a 4:3 screen is the closest thing to your actual range of vision. Also you want to have a lot of horizontal movement if you're dodging things from a vertical perspective, and screens that scroll left and right with you are silly . [/bullshit justification I made up in 5 seconds]

I do generally like vertizontals alot, though.

EDIT: What does "zako" mean, btw?