Too close for comfort? the revival?

[BPzeBanshee]

Cave made a request for the driver to be removed / not worked on any further. Once it was confirmed to be a genuine request that action was taken. Like most legal requests 'for intended recipient only etc. etc.'

I suppose this "for intended recipient only etc etc" bit is why we've gotta take your word for it instead of believing it's all an epic joke by R Belmont and Co (nondisclosure statement)?

[CMPXCHG8B]

Thanks for the explanation. I guess that's as official as it's going to get, apart from the commit logs.

And now for something that could conceivably be a truly stupid question- you mentioned DDP:DFK. Did that actually get dumped, or was that just an example?

-CMPX

[IseeThings]

Thanks for the explanation. I guess that's as official as it's going to get, apart from the commit logs.

And now for something that could conceivably be a truly stupid question- you mentioned DDP:DFK. Did that actually get dumped, or was that just an example?

-CMPX

There are dumps... AFAIK they're not public tho, just the owners of the boards have them. (Said patch I have comes from them)

Anyhow, as politically driven as MAME seems to be as of late I think that scheme is a bit too elaborate for them to organize convincingly as a hoax

[xMetalliCx]

Kubilak
CMPXCHG8B
If you dont understand - it was experimental build, and only goal of it - lets people compare slowdowns with real PCB gameplay, thats all. accept this or reject and forget about it
The main goal was try to figure out slowdowns mechanism.

Diff was not published because I dont want people use my WIP/not finished/experimental/fault/etc code in their private builds (with goal just to play games) and especially in MAME-license-violating (that still have csh3 driver) like mameppk and many others.

and btw, you are blind or something ? please read topic or at least my messages before complaining. All this was already explained before.

talking about licensing things - you are MAMEdev ? probably no, so get lost.

[Kubilak]

I don't care what CAVE sent to MAME or what CAVE says,
(IANAL) there is nothing wrong legally with distributing the source code to the driver
or doing further work on it and i intend to do so. CAVE can send me a C&D if they
like, i am not breaking any legal contract or license by redistributing/further
working on the code. There is nothing in MAME license that forbids this, MAME
can choose to do CAVE a favor by removing the driver but that's all that is,
a favor.

xxxMetallicxxx(whatever):
Either you are dense or you are deliberately misrepresenting the issue.
The MAME license is clear, you redistributed your binary (which i have)
without source. You may have sent the source to Haze but you sure
as hell didn't send it to me, therefore you broke the license. The fact
that i am not part of MAME or that the driver was removed is irrelevant.
The license applies to ALL REDISTRIBUTIONS not just to those that you choose
to selectively honor. Get your head out of your ass and admit that much at least.

[IseeThings]

I don't care what CAVE sent to MAME or what CAVE says,
(IANAL) there is nothing wrong legally with distributing the source code to the driver
or doing further work on it and i intend to do so. CAVE can send me a C&D if they
like, i am not breaking any legal contract or license by redistributing/further
working on the code. There is nothing in MAME license that forbids this, MAME
can choose to do CAVE a favor by removing the driver but that's all that is,
a favor.

xxxMetallicxxx(whatever):
Either you are dense or you are deliberately misrepresenting the issue.
The MAME license is clear, you redistributed your binary (which i have)
without source. You may have sent the source to Haze but you sure
as hell didn't send it to me, therefore you broke the license. The fact
that i am not part of MAME or that the driver was removed is irrelevant.
The license applies to ALL REDISTRIBUTIONS not just to those that you choose
to selectively honor. Get your head out of your ass and admit that much at least.

The license requirement for this piece of code, in this case is waived by MAMEdev due to the other legal issues... Nobody has to send anybody anything. Instead you should delete the binaries just as Mamedev have deleted all traces of the driver from official distributions.

Furthermore after reviewing the code that was sent to me, there are further legal issues with it, as it's replacing the AMS emulation with code which is effectively a direct C translation of the Yamaha binary code for the decoder (that's one reason it's faster than the official build) which is in itself a legal risk, and makes it unsuitable for distribution.

In other words, get lost.

[Udderdude]

To single/double digit post count ROM kiddies: Please stop riding MAMEdev's nuts over this, it's really cut and dry and you aren't going to get any more ZOMG FREE ROMZ. Buy the 360 ports and a 360 that will run them. Otherwise, get lost.

[Kubilak]

Haze,

MAME is not in a position to waive anything. They can change the license if they like
but that will take effect for anything that gets redistributed after the change gets made.
The redistribution that xxxMetallicxxx made will of course continue to be covered
by the old license. You can't go back in time and retroactively change licenses,
that's not how things work.

As for the Yamaha driver, until it's proven in a court of law that there are
legal issues with it, allow me to continue doing whatever i want with it.
IMO, pretty much everything that's said on the matter is conjecture and
wishful thinking and the only thing that we have established here is that
xxxMetallicxxx is breaking the MAME license.

[IseeThings]

Haze,

MAME is not in a position to waive anything.

It's their license, they can grant exceptions, an exception has been granted.

It's my code we're talking about a patch to anyway, I approve the exception.

You're trying to use the license to demand somebody puts themselves in a potentially precarious position as far as the law is concerned, and that's just not going to happen, nor would MameDev force it.

As I said, get lost.

[zakk]

So when can we expect you to enforce this license? Oh wait, you're not in a position to do that at all.

Haze,

MAME is not in a position to waive anything. They can change the license if they like
but that will take effect for anything that gets redistributed after the change gets made.
The redistribution that xxxMetallicxxx made will of course continue to be covered
by the old license. You can't go back in time and retroactively change licenses,
that's not how things work.

As for the Yamaha driver, until it's proven in a court of law that there are
legal issues with it, allow me to continue doing whatever i want with it.
Imho, pretty much everything that's said on the matter is conjecture and
wishful thinking and the only thing that we have established here is that
xxxMetallicxxx is breaking the MAME license.

[Kubilak]

Haze,

You can not grant an exception ex post facto. In fact it is not even clear
that you are in a position to grant anything or alter the license in any way.
I received the binary redistribution, under the MAME license but not the modifications
as source. Therefore the license, which is a contract between the originator and recipient
of a distribution, got broken. The fact that it wasn't broken in your case, is irrelevant
to my case. You seem to have real trouble following this.

There is even a message by you, in this forum, reminding xxxMetallicxxx that he is violating the license:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 46#p734814

For a software engineer, if you are even that, it seems to me that you are acting in
a very childish and superficial way. Backed into a corner, you start waving your hands around
and conjuring things out of thin air. I wish you'd stick to technical matters.

Once again: It is irrelevant to me what you or anybody else believe is legal
or not. Until things get settled in a court of law, if they get that far which
i highly doubt, all that's said is conjecture. The MAME license however is real,
and it is very clear, no matter how much you wish you could go back in time and change it.


Zakk: I am not in a position to enforce it because i am unwilling to spend time & resources
in doing so. That doesn't mean my point is wrong. I'm just happy to call things as they
are, not as they seem to be.

[IseeThings]

Haze,

You can not grant an exception ex post facto. In fact it is not even clear
that you are in a position to grant anything or alter the license in any way.

You're missing the point.

Nobody is going to force anybody to post code which puts them in a potentially precarious legal situation. Mamedev have no intention at all of acting over this 'infringement'. They are more likely to act on people posting new builds containing such code.

Cease & Desist has been issued, that takes absolute precedence. Nobody is to do anything further with it, and that includes posting the patch you want.

It's not going to happen, period, no matter how much you beg.

The correct route in this case is to destroy the offending binary, just as MameDev have destroyed the offending sources. Thats your worst case scenario if you don't believe an exception can be granted. It's like like when GPL code gets linked to Console SDKs, there doesn't become a requirement for the SDKs to be open sourced, instead, the product is deemed illegal and deleted / recalled.

You are not getting the patch. Not from me, not from Metallic. As far as Mamedev is concerned that code never existed, the patch for that code never existed, and the binaries never existed, they have been written out of the project absolutely.

How about you just respect the wishes of the company who made the games we're talking about, like MameDev have, and possibly respect the wishes of those involved in the code you're talking about while you're at it instead of coming across as rude and demanding.

[Kubilak]

Well if my logic won't sway you, nothing will.

It is however funny watching people stick their heads in the sand
and try to rewrite history by willpower alone. The offending code
is still in the GIT repo AFAIK, although i guess you could delete
the commits and apply the rest one by one afterwards

I hope you realize that it would be futile given the nature of GIT
and how many 3rd parties must have cloned the repo by now.

[IseeThings]

Well if my logic won't sway you, nothing will.

It is however funny watching people stick their heads in the sand
and try to rewrite history by willpower alone. The offending code
is still in the GIT repo AFAIK, although i guess you could delete
the commits and apply the rest one by one afterwards

I hope you realize that it would be futile given the nature of GIT
and how many 3rd parties must have cloned the repo by now.

The Git repro is an unofficial mirror, the actual *official* SVN tree has it fully purged.

Obviously some people will keep the code alive, but as far as any official involvement goes, it's over and you're not going to get anything out of people who have been asked to post nothing by Cave and/or the developers of MAME as long as said people have any integrity whatsoever.

[Nasirosuchus]

To single/double digit post count ROM kiddies: Please stop riding MAMEdev's nuts over this, it's really cut and dry and you aren't going to get any more ZOMG FREE ROMZ. Buy the 360 ports and a 360 that will run them. Otherwise, get lost.

They could just PM someone who has the build or metallic's slowpoke build and ask them to upload it. It's already out there, so a C&D isn't going to stop it from being redistributed, and the roms are still out there in all the obvious places.

[emphatic]

you aren't going to get any more ZOMG FREE ROMZ.

They could just PM someone who has the build or metallic's slowpoke build and ask them to upload it. It's already out there, so a C&D isn't going to stop it from being redistributed, and the roms are still out there in all the obvious places.

I think it's the "any more", as in game roms not already out there, like DDP-DFK you should be focusing on in that sentence. Get lost.

[Vamos]

To single/double digit post count ROM kiddies: Please stop riding MAMEdev's nuts over this, it's really cut and dry and you aren't going to get any more ZOMG FREE ROMZ. Buy the 360 ports and a 360 that will run them. Otherwise, get lost.

They could just PM someone who has the build or metallic's slowpoke build and ask them to upload it. It's already out there, so a C&D isn't going to stop it from being redistributed, and the roms are still out there in all the obvious places.

(Post removed by moderator. Please do not distribute source or binaries of MAME that are at odds with the Cave C&D via this forum system, regardless of the likelihood of enforcement we want these forums to remain well away from shaky legal ground.)

[Estebang]

Out of curiosity, was the MAME team ever contacted by SNK back in the day when new Neo games (i.e. SVC Chaos, KOF 2003) were being added? I'd say those would have been a far more touchy subject than Cave stuff today.

[mjclark]

Just as with Nimitz before, it seems grossly unfair to badmouth IseeThings and xMetallicx for putting boundaries on their own projects. We all continue to benefit greatly here and , guess what, everything that's already ben released is still available out there anyway. Less scrupulous devs like IseeLawsuits and xCopyrightinfringementx will continue to develop this stuff regardless...

Obviously that doesn't mean somebody can't write an SH3 recompiler

Yes please
Oh, and...roll on Demul 0.5.7

[Udderdude]

Out of curiosity, was the MAME team ever contacted by SNK back in the day when new Neo games (i.e. SVC Chaos, KOF 2003) were being added? I'd say those would have been a far more touchy subject than Cave stuff today.

Their games were already being bootlegged and modified to hell and back, so I'm pretty sure they had greater issues to deal with.

[Estebang]

Yeah, I suppose Capcom's silence about CPS2 emulation had something to do with the existing proliferation of Phoenix boards. They never said anything about Third Strike, though.

[IseeThings]

Neither SNK nor Capcom have said anything.

I heard Capcom were more concerned about the number of bootlegs being created with the Phoenix roms (because bootleggers could kill off any board and convert it to a more popular game) but I don't think they took action there either.

As already stated, the SNK games were _already_ being heavily bootlegged, SNK had nothing to lose by things being documented at that point, and from the amount of stuff leaked and bootlegged prior to release (and the fact that prototypes ended up being used as the source of bootlegs in the cases where they did do a better job of securing them) there is strong suggestion that the source of many of the bootlegs was from within anyway.

Cave, Arika, and Hanaho are the only ones to have ever requested things not be supported. There was some Korean company too, but their 'game' was just a shitty illegitimate hack of another game anyway, so that one was laughed off.

[Nasirosuchus]

you aren't going to get any more ZOMG FREE ROMZ.

They could just PM someone who has the build or metallic's slowpoke build and ask them to upload it. It's already out there, so a C&D isn't going to stop it from being redistributed, and the roms are still out there in all the obvious places.

I think it's the "any more", as in game roms not already out there, like DDP-DFK you should be focusing on in that sentence. Get lost.

Your point?

As has already been stated several pages ago, the SH3 driver will be added back in one day. As far as what's not playable, we're talking about all of one game. Everything else is still there for anyone who wants to play them, as is the slowpoke build or the 143u7-u9. If people waited this long for the other games, then they can wait a while longer for DFK. It's not like it will never ever be playable.

[Bananamatic]

So what's the fuckin problem here anyways

[Jockel]

So what's the fuckin problem here anyways

DUN EVEN ASK THIS IS SEWIOUS BUSINESS!!!!111

[kevenz]

So much drama.... all this talk about cave sh3 source being illegal now.

Guess what computer nerds! if you download mame, you're illegal, so you can go to church like a good american and get confessed

Don't tell me you just play the free roms on the mamedev website.... that's bullshit and no company said ok you can emulate our games for free...... they just have bigger stuff to do with newer games being developped.

I'm surprise Cave even heard of their games being emulated on pc..... someone on this forum must be pissed to have spend so much money on pcbs so he sent a letter to cave to shut it down.

[BIL]

I'm surprise Cave even heard of their games being emulated on pc..... someone on this forum must be pissed to have spend so much money on pcbs so he sent a letter to cave to shut it down.

Awesome, conspiracy theory time!

FIND THE SHUMPS.SYSTEM11 MOLE

[Barrakketh]

So much drama.... all this talk about cave sh3 source being illegal now.

Guess what computer nerds! if you download mame, you're illegal

MAME itself is not illegal. Depending on the country you live in, use and/or possession of the ROMs may or may not be illegal. If you are capable of dumping the ROMs yourself using a board you own and actually do so (not that 99.9999% of MAME users actually do that) that would still likely be legal depending on how you want to interpret the DMCA.

Furthermore after reviewing the code that was sent to me, there are further legal issues with it, as it's replacing the AMS emulation with code which is effectively a direct C translation of the Yamaha binary code for the decoder (that's one reason it's faster than the official build)

The slowpoke builds, or some other patch?

The Cave SH3 stuff was also purged from the _official_ SVN at the same time as the 'Please Don't' checkin.

Wait...SVN lets you rewrite history? Isn't that "pretty fucking terrible" for revisions that have already been made public, or is it more forgiving than git in that regard?

[captpain]

I'm surprise Cave even heard of their games being emulated on pc..... someone on this forum must be pissed to have spend so much money on pcbs so he sent a letter to cave to shut it down.

Awesome, conspiracy theory time!

FIND THE SHUMPS.SYSTEM11 MOLE

didn't somebody in this thread do exactly that, though? send a letter to cave about emulation, that is

[Vamos]

Hahaha really? who would do that? thats beyond tragic and seriously extensive fanboyism.