The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Shepardus]

For the longest time I thought the requirement for the Ura route was to use a hyper before the midboss, rather than have a hyper ready. I realized that earlier today and managed to trigger the Ura loop for the first time, and just now I managed to trigger it three times in a row with C-Strong, of which I continued one run and saw all six of the Ura midbosses. As long as you're not misunderstanding the requirements I don't think it should be that hard to simply get the trigger without regards to scoring, especially if you use Strong.

Maybe you should try that, just pick a Strong type ship and practice just point-blanking the silos, especially that first one that sticks off the far left of the screen, since the silos are the most likely cause of failure (if you don't know why you failed it's probably the silos). Don't worry if you autobomb like crazy*, don't bother hypering (just save it to make sure you have one ready in time for the trigger, and Strong ships destroy the silos quickly enough without hyper), I don't think you don't even have to worry about the bees (pick them up if you reveal them though). I can get it about 50% of the time or better like that. If you can trigger the Ura midboss like that, then you can work backwards from there and incorporate stuff you get from replays to actually get a decent chain and not autobomb while still getting the trigger.

*Note that bombing actually makes it easier to destroy the silos quickly enough. Maybe you need to hyper to destroy them in time without a bomb? I have no idea.

tl;dr: Bomb the silos, point-blank everything, save your hyper, don't worry about anything else. Work out a legit strategy later when you've actually got to practice the Ura route a bit.

[Blinge]

Yeah no, you're not serious.

[CloudyMusic]

I can't help but wonder how much of your trouble stems from MAME-related causes; didn't you go through similar problems with MFBL?

[Icarus]

… didn't you go through similar problems with every STG you pick up?

[Obscura]

Yeah no, you're not serious. 15 hours of practice and not figuring out how to do that just doesn't compute. If you legit played 15 hours of it and still have barely any hope of getting into the Ura route then its because you're not doing it right. Instead of more carefully referring to replays and the written guides on how to access the ura route, you spam attempts at doing something you're obviously not doing properly and then you come to complain about a game that it seems you haven't even paid for and is running through terrible emulation?

Why don't you start with getting an Xbox 360 if you don't have one to begin with and then getting the port so you're at least playing a proper version and then you try again with the aid of some replays. Its extremely simple to do, not some ridiculous score trick.

Roflmao, yeah, I'll just spend several hundred on an import 360 (if it's even possible to get one now) and another hundred on an import game just so I can play a shmup with an X360 pad. Great idea!

And roflmao at it being simpler to unlock Ura route than to bridge out of midbosses; I've already got bridge routes out of the 2 and first 5 midboss (1 as well obviously, but that doesn't really count). Those are WAAAAY easier than unlocking Ura. I mean, FFS, you can grab the second bee, kill the first tank before it touches the first silo, then kill the first silo, then aura-kill the second silo before it even finishes scrolling on the fucking screen, kill its tank and grab the bee, then kill the third before the third tank is even close to it, hear the Hyper System voice bit just as the third silo dies, and STILL not get the warp. It's fucking ridiculous, and the only possible reason for having "one stupid obscure trick in stage 1 changes the second half of every stage in the game" is to get people to walk away from runs in stage 1 to increase revenue. It's total bullshit.

(EDIT: BTW, I know for fact that the requirements listed on the game's strategy page are wrong. I've gotten it after the first of the three silos got hit, and I've gotten it after dying.)

[Cagar]

Yeah no, you're not serious. 15 hours of practice and not figuring out how to do that just doesn't compute. If you legit played 15 hours of it and still have barely any hope of getting into the Ura route then its because you're not doing it right. Instead of more carefully referring to replays and the written guides on how to access the ura route, you spam attempts at doing something you're obviously not doing properly and then you come to complain about a game that it seems you haven't even paid for and is running through terrible emulation?

Why don't you start with getting an Xbox 360 if you don't have one to begin with and then getting the port so you're at least playing a proper version and then you try again with the aid of some replays. Its extremely simple to do, not some ridiculous score trick.

Roflmao, yeah, I'll just spend several hundred on an import 360 (if it's even possible to get one now) and another hundred on an import game just so I can play a shmup with an X360 pad. Great idea!

And roflmao at it being simpler to unlock Ura route than to bridge out of midbosses; I've already got bridge routes out of the 2 and first 5 midboss (1 as well obviously, but that doesn't really count). Those are WAAAAY easier than unlocking Ura. I mean, FFS, you can grab the second bee, kill the first tank before it touches the first silo, then kill the first silo, then aura-kill the second silo before it even finishes scrolling on the fucking screen, kill its tank and grab the bee, then kill the third before the third tank is even close to it, hear the Hyper System voice bit just as the third silo dies, and STILL not get the warp. It's fucking ridiculous, and the only possible reason for having "one stupid obscure trick in stage 1 changes the second half of every stage in the game" is to get people to walk away from runs in stage 1 to increase revenue. It's total bullshit.

(EDIT: BTW, I know for fact that the requirements listed on the game's strategy page are wrong. I've gotten it after the first of the three silos got hit, and I've gotten it after dying.)

-___-
Did you watch emuser's video? If emuser's route is not already enough, you can HYPER on the first 2 silos that are the hardest to kill.

"one stupid obscure trick in stage 1 changes the second half of every stage in the game" is to get people to walk away from runs in stage 1 to increase revenue. It's total bullshit.

No, it's an obscure trick so that people wouldn't trigger the route by accident, and if you are not consistently triggering it, then you are
doing
something
wrong.
You are doing something wrong. You are not killing the silos in time. You are missing a bee.
You are not executing the URA route requirements correctly.
If you are not getting in the route consistently, you are not executing the URA route requirements correctly.
If you are not getting in the route consistently, you have a bad route.

Understood?
Now quit bitching like a DTP and watch the replays more closely.

Also, the mame emulation sucks in terms of slowdown and your scores are not considered valid, just like every other SH3-game. X360 is totally worth it right now.

[Obscura]

Emuser's video is for C-Strong, so it's not useful in my case, since I'm playing B-Power.

You are not executing the URA route requirements correctly.
If you are not getting in the route consistently, you are not executing the URA route requirements correctly.

No comment on the fact that I've had runs that don't meet the (supposed) requirements and get Ura anyways?

The requirements listed in the thread on the strategy forum are 100% without a doubt incorrect. The fact that whatever you're doing that happens to actually trigger it also meets the requirements listed in the thread is entirely coincidental.

EDIT: I don't terribly care that my scores aren't valid on the high scores board here. And LOL @ the thought of spending $500 for one game that I want to like but really can't actually like because of one ridiculously stupid design decision being "worth it" (oh, and I'd still have to play on an X360 pad, ROFLMAO.)

[Cagar]

Emuser's video is for C-Strong, so it's not useful in my case, since I'm playing B-Power.

How so? The requirements are the same, and the power difference is barely anything.

EDIT: I don't terribly care that my scores aren't valid on the high scores board here.

You know what 'slowdown' means in arcade shoot em' ups, right?
Can't wait for this guy to come back in this thread and complain about undodgeably fast patterns and bad balance difficulty

And LOL @ the thought of spending $500 for one game that I want to like but really can't actually like because of one ridiculously stupid design decision being "worth it" (oh, and I'd still have to play on an X360 pad, ROFLMAO.)

Oh, the price is closer to 200$-300$ btw.
You know that you can get pretty much any sort of controller working on a X360, right?
Though if you aren't interested in other newer shmups, then X360 might not be worth it.

[Obscura]

Yes, I know what slowdown means.

I've already gotten the (non-Ura) clear with Strong and Bomb styles. DFK first loop doesn't have a single pattern dense enough to not be entirely reasonable without having any slowdown (and MAME 155 gives slowdowns that seem pretty accurate based on the vids I've seen, anyways).

[SuperSoaker360]

But what about Futari? And get a Horipad. You don't have to put up with the shitty 360 pad you know.

As for your Ura problem, I've had my share of restart-itis trying to get it down but it can be fairly inconsistent at times so I don't really blame you. Plus, this is the shmup grievances thread so you can rant to your heart's content as long as you aren't spewing out complete bullshit about how every game is all luck. Besides, if it were a quarter-munching design then it certainly didn't save CAVE.

My personal advice? Play a better CAVE Shooter.

[Blinge]

the mame emulation sucks in terms of slowdown and your scores are not considered valid, just like every other SH3-game.

Hngggg sh-3 mame when =[

[Obscura]

But what about Futari?

I actually dislike Futari (the only reason I cleared BL was just to prove something to myself). Not a fan of how "metagamey" the score-systems feel.

My personal advice? Play a better CAVE Shooter.

Which one would that be? I've done everything I can with DOJBL (got 150Mil on a run that made it to the 1-5 boss with A-E [should have been a clear; I got there with something absurd like 3 or 4 lives left, and then game over'd without bombing a single time, and was never able to replicate that run]; later cheesed a 1-all with B-L, although I always felt kind of ashamed of that; I felt kinda like I had cheated in a long-term relationship or soemthing), Ketsui is more than I can handle starting at stage 4, and I've never liked Galuda's pacing (also, not a fan of how Kakusei turns what should be the most exciting moment -- a really dense pattern coming at you -- and neuters it with slowmode + autobomb).

(Also, after re-reading the thread, which of the two silos that the first tank runs over is the one that you can ignore? I thought it was the first one the tank hits that could be ignored, but I've seen posts in that thread claiming both ways? It would explain a lot if I've been going after the wrong silo [although it still wouldn't explain why I can die in the process and still get the warp sometimes].)

[Lilium]

Daifukkatsu is a great Cave shooter but it seems you're not getting past this hurdle so I guess you won't be making much progress in general with it. DOJBL and Ketsui are both great games that you could certainly progress much more with. You're still growing so don't use phrases such as "more than I can handle" and stuff, that's bad. Don't do that, especially not as early as Ketsui Stage 4.

To simply clear Ketsui's first loop, or Daioujou Black Label for that matter, is not by any means a hard task but its a task that requires you know how to perform it. To say that its beyond you would be like saying that learning how to bike is beyond you before you even tried. You need to sink in some effort at learning how to handle the different kinds of situations that the game gives you. And remember to abuse the hell out of the savestates that you have. Put some savestates on hard bosses and practice doing those, ideally something with random bullets in it or tight spaces you need to fit through. What you need to develop is accurate ship control (i swear thats a battle that never ends but the more you fight it, the better it gets) and the ability to react to random situations and improvize. Couple those skills with careful memorization of the most important hotspots and nothing in any first loop should really threaten you any longer.

Don't waste time with mamulation of DFK, it doesn't even work. Go work on DOJBL and Kets instead is my advice.

Or do whatever the heck you want, i have with this tried to give you serious advice on how to move forward in your current STG situation, you can take it or leave it as you please.

[Skykid]

The Ura can occasionally be elusive, but damn, if you can't trigger it pretty consistently after 15 hours of restarts you may want to consider a different career path.

I got pissed off of trying for 30 minutes, watched a video or two, problem solved thereafter.

[Obscura]

DOJBL [...] you could certainly progress much more with.

And you know this... how?

I spent damn near a year of my life where DOJBL was nearly the only game (of any genre,not just only shmup) I played. There's no way I'm making any further progress in that (hell, the last few months of it had no progress, just endless plateau).

Contrary to shmup farm dogma, talent is not only a thing that exists, but it's the only thing that matters until you reach the absolute top at something. There's been so much research done debunking the "omg, anyone can become an expert if they put in the effort!" crap that I can't believe anyone still believes it; the actual best at any endeavor reached very close to their peak with relatively little practice, and the thousands and thousands of hours are just to put on the tiniest of finishing touches.

People here claim "talent only matters when you reach the WR level, but below that it's all practice!" In reality, the opposite is true; practice only matters when you're already great, below that, it's all talent.

[trap15]

That's some scrub talk. Less chatting, more playing.

[Stevens]

Nothin' more frustrating than getting a really nice +750 chain in Mars Matrix stage 1 followed by dying on the boss >_<
Except maybe keeping failing to maintain the stage 3 chain in such a way that reduces said chain by like +300, and total experience by several hundred thousand.
Or perhaps failing to kill the final turret on the Battleship in stage 4 fast enough to be able to get the full +600-700 chain from the gold cube fountain

-_-

I usually get 400-450 on the battleship. I know how I can increase it (hammer away at the core instead of destroying the last turret) but I refuse to get pulled down the scoring hole.

I'm hitting level 7 by the gold fountain on stage 3 most of the time now. That is good enough for me:D

The other day I no missed till stage 4 boss. Died once. Should reach stage 6 no problem, and then proceeded to lay a giant egg on stage 5.

The hell!?

[LordHypnos]

Nothin' more frustrating than getting a really nice +750 chain in Mars Matrix stage 1 followed by dying on the boss >_<
Except maybe keeping failing to maintain the stage 3 chain in such a way that reduces said chain by like +300, and total experience by several hundred thousand.
Or perhaps failing to kill the final turret on the Battleship in stage 4 fast enough to be able to get the full +600-700 chain from the gold cube fountain

-_-

I

I usually get 400-450 on the battleship. I know how I can increase it (hammer away at the core instead of destroying the last turret) but I refuse to get pulled down the scoring hole.

I'm hitting level 7 on stage 3 mostly now. That is good enough for me:D

So many points, tho @_@

@talent: IDK man, there may be some element of talent to playing STGs, but I pretty much suck at STGs, and usually do considerably worse than most shmupsfarmers when it comes to casually playing a game without any practice. However, with hours and hours of dedication I did eventually clear Mars Matrix, which is considered very hard.

EDIT: On topic, my current Mars Matrix grievance is stage 5. I just keep on dying on either the part of the stage where all of the bullet cancelling enemies cluster at the bottom of the stage, or at the end of the stage before the boss, or on the 3rd car of the boss, or on the final car of the boss. I really need to work on that stage if I'm gonna get anywhere near 2.5 mil experience again (while also clearing)...

[Shepardus]

If you think it's so talent-based and you have no hope, why are you even bothering trying any shmup that you don't 1cc on your first try? You think everybody here who posts a 1cc (not even the "absolute top" level) got it because they're naturally talented and didn't need to put much effort in it? You think Kamui started getting K scores in Garegga right from the start and only needed extended practice to improve from there? One year's nothing if you really want to improve. I played the violin for around a decade and though I was never amazing at it I was still noticeably improving every year. People have been playing DOJ since its release over ten years ago; even if you actually do have the "natural talent" you say you don't, one year isn't going to be enough to compare to the very best.

I mean, there's a reason why I find Touhou games a lot easier to clear on Normal than I did a couple years ago, and it's not because some fairy granted me more "talent." Talent is a thing that exists and not everybody who practices a lot will become a world-class player, but that's totally different from saying that practice isn't going to make a difference if you're not good from the start.

Also, if you really think it's so dependent on talent, maybe the Ura midboss route isn't such a silly idea after all since it separates those with talent and those without.

Really, it just sounds like you need to take a break from shmups for a while, and maybe games in general.

[Pretas]

DFK is a boring, subpar game with too much bullet canceling and not enough dodging. Try SDOJ instead.

[Obscura]

If you think it's so talent-based and you have no hope, why are you even bothering trying any shmup that you don't 1cc on your first try?

Partially because on my first try I don't know what's coming (memo/preknowledge does help), and more because I'm too stubborn for my own good.

You think everybody here who posts a 1cc (not even the "absolute top" level) got it because they're naturally talented and didn't need to put much effort in it?

Probably, yeah. I can say that every 1CC I've ever done was done less than a month from when I played the game for the first time, with the sole exception of DOJBL (which was done within a few credits of switching from A-E to B-L and bomb-spamming my way to a dumb, cheesy clear).

You think Kamui started getting K scores in Garegga right from the start and only needed extended practice to improve from there?

I'd imagine she was probably clearing the game with letter scores in very little time. Possibly not as little time as she would need now (Garegga has a very "knowledge-based" score system, and the knowledge wasn't as well organized and easily available in the '90s as it is now), but still pretty damn fast.

I mean, there's a reason why I find Touhou games a lot easier to clear on Normal than I did a couple years ago, and it's not because some fairy granted me more "talent."

Yeah, it's because the Touhou games are vastly divergent in terms of difficulty at "Normal".
My first 1CC ever was Imperishable Night on Normal, and it took me a couple weeks. A similar amount of time with SA Normal didn't yield anything close to a clear (I never got past stage 4). When I played MOF a year later, I cleared it on Normal on the first afternoon I played it. The reason had nothing to do with my increasing in skill and everything to do with the fact that you can bomb-spam your way through MOF without even looking at the screen.

Also, if you really think it's so dependent on talent, maybe the Ura midboss route isn't such a silly idea after all since it separates those with talent and those without.

Nah, it's still stupid to bottleneck every single bit of the scoring around one trick in stage 1. If you look at DOJBL, no matter how good or bad you are, there's still something that will be interesting and exciting for your skill level when you put in a credit. Awful at the game? Try to chain stage 1 and survive stages 2 and 3. Slightly less awful but still bad? Chain the first two stages, chain each half of stage 3 separately, survive 4 and 5. Good at the game? Chain every stage and kill Hibachi. DFK has nothing between "sleepwak your way to a Bomb-style clear" and "lol Ura".

[Bananamatic]

DFK is a boring, subpar game with too much bullet canceling and not enough dodging. Try SDOJ instead.

that's BL

DFK is about just getting the max multiplier and then never cancelling again

[trap15]

The return of DrTrouserPlank

[Erppo]

Nah, it's still stupid to bottleneck every single bit of the scoring around one trick in stage 1.

Umm 1-1 and 1-2 aren't really worth much no matter what you do. It also sounds like you're nowhere near of being able to get to the Ura loop.

[nasty_wolverine]

DFK is a boring, subpar game with too much bullet canceling and not enough dodging. Try SDOJ instead.

that's BL
DFK is about just getting the max multiplier and then never cancelling again

Both labels are good games, depends on what you fancy. That said, there are better games out there.

[Obscura]

EDIT: This is in response to Erppo.

Yeah, but the layouts of every single stage in the game are tied to one trick in stage 1, which makes stage 1 "secretly" worth a whole crapton, actually.

[Cagar]

EDIT: This is in response to Erppo.

Yeah, but the layouts of every single stage in the game are tied to one trick in stage 1, which makes stage 1 "secretly" worth a whole crapton, actually.

Except that you can get in the ura route in stage 3 even if you miss it in stage 1, just by collecting all bees in previous stages (i think it was?)

[BIL]

The return of DrTrouserPlank

The Legend Never Die

Spoiler

[nasty_wolverine]

Yeah, but the layouts of every single stage in the game are tied to one trick in stage 1, which makes stage 1 "secretly" worth a whole crapton, actually.

really, wtf are you trying to do? you want a easy 1CC? then fuck ura and stick to the normal midboss route. You are trying to score? then fuck ura and stick to the normal midboss route and get a 1CC first.

Also, the ura trick is simple:
- collect all the bees
- dont let tank overrun the silos (you can take out the tank or the silos, just dont let the tank destroy them)
- have a full hyper bar before the midboss appears

If you cant do it, then just stop whining about it and play something else.

[Obscura]

I've already got a 1CC, so the "get a 1CC first" step has already been completed.