LiveWire ports SaiDaiOuJou to the Switch (all regions)

[CerealPT]

having reviewers like Mark recommending people to pirate the game is really bad, also for such a lenghty video i would expect the slowdown accuracy between 360 and Switch to be compared, pretty sure LiveWire made some tweet about inproved slowdown accuracy so some sort of confirmation would be mice.
he spent half the video moaning about input lag basically.
for someone who is supposed to be such a shmup lover he does more harm than good.
just wish the game had a steam/ps4 port but i will take what i can.

[Starfighter]

Is he really doing more harm than good? He's profiling himself as someone who favours quality over quantity and hold developers and gamers to a higher standard (that's the impression I get, at least). I feel like it's a matter of perspective if that sort of thing is harmful in the broader scope, personally I think there's room for all sorts of opinions (with obvious exceptions, of course). But I can be wrong of course!

[Creamy Goodness]

Besides Mark's videos being way too long, he comes off very much as a contrarian and seems like he is trying too hard to be the anti-IGN. I take his opinions with a grain of salt.

Credit where credit is due I really enjoyed his documentary and his commentary clear videos are very helpful.

[Sima Tuna]

I love his 1cc commentaries. He should do more of those.

I think it's fair to bring up unofficial emulation when we're talking about how pirates are providing a superior product to official porting teams, even when the subject of money doesn't come up at all.

To their credit, Live Wire are one of the good porting companies and largely seem to get it right, even if all they're doing is translating across the standard xbox 360 or PC ports of shmups to newer systems. It's unfortunate that the latest port seems to have... Either the same lag or one additional frame? I can't remember which. It's a shame they can't get online leaderboards working as per usual either. But hey, the port is still good enough considering the competition out there... I think Mark was mostly annoyed that this wasn't an M2 Shottriggers treatment with a new arrange/rebalancing of what he sees as a flawed game with much potential.

[CerealPT]

i just think for the lenght of the review it should have been more in depth, 360 version runs differently in 480i and 720p, how does the switch compares to that? what about the supposed improved slowdown accuracy?
i like most of his videos and we al know how annoying input lag can be but having a review with someone ranting about it for 15 straight minutes when there is more technical details that people would like to know, makes it a bit a waste of time.
personally i will just import the physical release whenever its available, would had prefered smaller input lag but cant go wrong with another cave game to play on the go and normally their physical releases are decently priced anyways.

[Jonpachi]

I don’t see the review as anything different from what we see with Blu-Ray releases of classic films or TV shows. If you already have/love this game, does this new release demand your attention or not? I personally appreciate the lens of quality, and agree that ideally it went deeper into comparisons of slowdown accuracy, etc, but that assumes the reviewer has access to all versions which is somewhat unreasonable with this sort of aging arcade hardware.

[pegboy]

I haven't watched Mark's review yet but if the input lag is bad enough to render the game unplayable than none of those other issues even matter.

Also, how would he even know what the slowdown accuracy was unless he has played the pcb extensively?

[kid aphex]

for someone who is supposed to be such a shmup lover he does more harm than good.

I enjoy his channel immensely but you have a point.
I find myself thinking the same thing when watching his negative reviews.

[CerealPT]

Also, how would he even know what the slowdown accuracy was unless he has played the pcb extensively?

I meant comparing switch version to 360 overall speed and slowdown accuracy, specially since 360 has two different speeds dependin on the output resolution the console is at. i know it runs better at 480i compared to 720p, which of these speeds does the switch compares to?
even the input lag numbers dont make much sense since Mark himself ages ago stated the input lag on the 360 version was 5f, now hes saying its 4f.
not the first time he changes his input lag numbers either.

[hamfighterx]

I think Mark was mostly annoyed that this wasn't an M2 Shottriggers treatment with a new arrange/rebalancing of what he sees as a flawed game with much potential.

Maybe that will happen one day from M2, former Cave staff, or someone... but it's sort of silly to expect that Live Wire was ever going to be a company that was trying to release an improved and revised SDOJ. And even if they wanted to, they are unproven at best when it comes to original STG design (closest thing would be their PC roguelite twin stick shooter, 9th Sentinel Sisters), so very questionable whether they would be able to pull off an M2-quality arrange/rebalancing.

But I'm very happy with Live Wire doing excellent ports, and the 1ms additional lag on Switch from the source material seems to be a very consistent hardware factor (not a matter of poorly done ports), so I don't find complaints about that extra 1ms to be very fair to Live Wire. They've done nothing but a good job of providing us the 360 versions of four Cave games (and Radiant Silvergun) with great results, and that has value. Maybe there's an argument that a good quality port existing on modern platforms makes it less likely that the M2s of the world will bother trying to do an improved version, but I'm on the side of release the game (and we still see multiple ports - something like Ketsui wasn't exactly unavailable in a quality port, but M2 still did a ShotTriggers release for that one).

Kinda hate how half of the discussion of any new STG now is about input lag, often by people who can't even tell for themselves whether it's good or bad until they read test reports from someone on the internet. It's one thing to make it a big point when it's a serious issue for a specific release that would reasonably be noticeable to a large portion of the audience (e.g., City Connection's Guardian Force/Cotton release), but for most of these games it's a very rare person who can even discern the difference between 5ms and 6ms. Maybe if you're a world record quality player, but for the vast majority of people, I just don't see it as very productive discussion. Tends to detract from actually talking about the game, in favor of nitpicking technical points that most of the players of the game won't appreciate.

[Sima Tuna]

I always make it a point of putting down my opinion on the input lag. I cannot tell input lag from about 6 frames of delay or so. Any port or conversion with <6 frames of input lag is undetectable to me. But I know some people can feel anything more than about 3-4 frames. I guess it depends what you are able to tolerate. I can certainly not tolerate above 10 frames of input delay, because at that point it becomes very noticeable in fast games when you try to jump or dodge and you just can't make your character respond fast enough.

So yeah, for me 5 frames of input delay is completely acceptable. I believe every ACA release on Switch is 5 or 6 frames of input delay. It's about a frame less on PS4 from what I remember. By my standards, Live Wire do a great job with these ports but it is fair to mention these are mostly just the xbox 360 ports brought straight across to the next console gen.

[ThundergunExpress]

I think Mark was mostly annoyed that this wasn't an M2 Shottriggers treatment with a new arrange/rebalancing of what he sees as a flawed game with much potential.

Kinda hate how half of the discussion of any new STG now is about input lag, often by people who can't even tell for themselves whether it's good or bad until they read test reports from someone on the internet. It's one thing to make it a big point when it's a serious issue for a specific release that would reasonably be noticeable to a large portion of the audience (e.g., City Connection's Guardian Force/Cotton release), but for most of these games it's a very rare person who can even discern the difference between 5ms and 6ms. Maybe if you're a world record quality player, but for the vast majority of people, I just don't see it as very productive discussion. Tends to detract from actually talking about the game, in favor of nitpicking technical points that most of the players of the game won't appreciate.

Thanks for putting this into words. As someone newer to the genre, I hate input lag obsession. I also am shocked Marks video was so predictable- like you said who actually expected live wire not to just straight port the game with the expected added frame of lag due to switch hardware? For someone who pays attention to these things, it's shocking to have expected something else. I agree with him on leaderboards, however.

I know I'm not alone, but there are those of us who weren't around for the 360 days, so we are desperate for releases like this. I have zero interest in emulation, and I don't enjoy playing games on my computer either in general.

Edit: Getting a 360 nowadays is silly. I went through 3 red ring brick units the first two years it was out. Never again am I buying that trash console.

[CerealPT]

agree, just hoping for a physical release now.
its been a good year for my physical collection.

[Jaimers]

But I'm very happy with Live Wire doing excellent ports, and the 1ms additional lag on Switch from the source material seems to be a very consistent hardware factor (not a matter of poorly done ports), so I don't find complaints about that extra 1ms to be very fair to Live Wire. They've done nothing but a good job of providing us the 360 versions of four Cave games (and Radiant Silvergun) with great results, and that has value. Maybe there's an argument that a good quality port existing on modern platforms makes it less likely that the M2s of the world will bother trying to do an improved version, but I'm on the side of release the game (and we still see multiple ports - something like Ketsui wasn't exactly unavailable in a quality port, but M2 still did a ShotTriggers release for that one).

Kinda hate how half of the discussion of any new STG now is about input lag, often by people who can't even tell for themselves whether it's good or bad until they read test reports from someone on the internet. It's one thing to make it a big point when it's a serious issue for a specific release that would reasonably be noticeable to a large portion of the audience (e.g., City Connection's Guardian Force/Cotton release), but for most of these games it's a very rare person who can even discern the difference between 5ms and 6ms. Maybe if you're a world record quality player, but for the vast majority of people, I just don't see it as very productive discussion. Tends to detract from actually talking about the game, in favor of nitpicking technical points that most of the players of the game won't appreciate.

My guy a frame here is 16.67ms.

[hamfighterx]

Apologies for my imprecise post and thanks for the correction. Yes, 1 frame at 60fps = 16.67ms. Rule of thumb I've often seen is that most players are not affected until delay exceeds 100ms (6 frames). So, Live Wire's stuff reported as 6 frames or less should be no issue for most players.

And my point remains that's it's awfully freaking tedious that this is such a primary discussion for what feels like every new STG release. Maybe more warranted for truly excessive examples, but I believe the VAST majority of potential players aren't going to be significantly impacted by a 1 frame difference between SDOJ 360/Switch ports. And I do think it's actively harmful to the genre when some of the louder voices act like games are unplayable trash due to a 1 frame difference, or hitting 7 frames.

[Starfighter]

What's the input latency on the Strikers games on Switch? Because that's just over my limit, I can clearly feel it there and I can't play those at all (I bought them but still play Strikers 1945 II on my PS1 if I am to have a popsicles chance in hell to dodge anything ). Anything that's one or more frames lower than Psikyo on Switch is completely fine for me.

Edit: And I only care about input latency in that sense, if it's over my limit then I can't really play the games and that's sorta the point about paying and getting them, haha.

[Jonpachi]

Psikyo games from ZeroDiv were 10+ on Switch. Some of the very worst on the console. The PS4 collections from CC fared much better.

[XoPachi]

I honestly thought Final Burn would be a bastard to setup. I've always hated arcade emulation so I just disregarded it until recently. I've been playing SDOJ in it the last week. First time ever emulating it. My God, it feels infinitely better than the ports. It really is a massive difference. I just really wish I could get the trimmings that come with the ports. I won't say I'm any better because of the lower latency and RunAhead. But I certainly feel an increasing confidence while playing.

Stage 4, just like DOJ, is a run ender for me though. This place is astonishingly brutal. FUCK Shingako. That is an evil midboss. And she would be the one with the 1up. :[

[Some-Mist]

never used it but does it play ibara well? I'd love to not have to bust out my pcb whenever I want to play it (sold the ps2 version)

I have this itch to pick up the digital SDOJ port but I'm really gonna try to hold out until a physical edition releases if it does. I want to sink some more runs into the arrange mode even tho I have my 360 hooked up right next to my pc

[XoPachi]

never used it but does it play ibara well? I'd love to not have to bust out my pcb whenever I want to play it (sold the ps2 version)

I have this itch to pick up the digital SDOJ port but I'm really gonna try to hold out until a physical edition releases if it does. I want to sink some more runs into the arrange mode even tho I have my 360 hooked up right next to my pc

I haven't tried Ibara, but it plays Muchi Pork and ESPGaluda 2 quite well. It has to be the Nightly v1.0.0.03 version of FinalBurn Neo though.

[bobrocks95]

I wouldn't say I'm expecting it, but it would be really cool if input polling on the Switch 2 is improved and it included backwards compatible games, and that extra one frame is suddenly gone for everything.

Really for games as generally unavailable as this though, sure I'll take a Switch port. If a PS4/5 version was available I'd pick it every time, but if it's Switch only then Switch it is. Nothing seems particularly lazy about the port job, but 4K and 1 fewer frame of lag with a PlayStation port as well would be nice to see. You could argue that's more Nintendo's fault for going with such outdated hardware though.

[slateman]

And my point remains that's it's awfully freaking tedious that this is such a primary discussion for what feels like every new STG release. Maybe more warranted for truly excessive examples, but I believe the VAST majority of potential players aren't going to be significantly impacted by a 1 frame difference between SDOJ 360/Switch ports. And I do think it's actively harmful to the genre when some of the louder voices act like games are unplayable trash due to a 1 frame difference, or hitting 7 frames.

I second this.

SDOJ available in 2025 is effing fantastic. I would much have preferred this on PC/PS4/5 than on Switch but - SDOJ available in 2025. THAT is what's important. The fact that someone made this happen, that it's not trapped on old hardware (and will likely be forward compatible with Switch 2), that more than just us elite shmup fans (I say in jest) have access to Cave's swansong: these are the stories and dialogues that should be front and center.

Reminder: DOJ and SDOJ both got modern ports within 13 months! There's plenty to gripe about in 2025 - but 1 frame of input delay is not amongst them IMO.

[CerealPT]

i will take any cave games honestly. always nice to have these titles on physical media on modern platforms, be able to play on the go on the switch. ports usually have a decent amount of extras as well (and higher resolution sprites on some of them, I dont think this is talked enough)
PCB and emulation always been available for whoever wanted anyways.
whats with SDOJ still not being available on EU Eshop?
dont really understand some of these business decisions.

[el_rika]

[quote=Some-Mist post_id=1570328 time=1735754572 user_id=7513]
does it play ibara well?
[/quote]

Perfectly. Both vanilla and BL.

[Emerl]

There's plenty to gripe about in 2025 - but 1 frame of input delay is not amongst them IMO.

The problem is that the Xbox 360 port of SDOJ was already considered laggy at 4-5 frames, and this is an additional frame on top of that (5-6).

That's a bummer, because lower-lag ways of playing exist in the EXA (2 frames) and original PCB (3 frames) version, but those are both very expensive, and compromised in different ways (PCB has low-res assets, low quality music, and no training mode, EXA has no training mode).

This isn't a disaster, but it's valid to be disappointed by this, and Mark certainly isn't doing more harm than good by giving an honest review and reporting facts.

If you're happy with this port, that's great. Others (like me) will wonder if the existence of this lower-effort LiveWire release makes it less likely that we'll ever get a definitive release with low input lag from someone like M2.

But because I'm a , I bought it on JP and US eShop and will be buying any physical versions they release.

[CerealPT]

There's plenty to gripe about in 2025 - but 1 frame of input delay is not amongst them IMO.

This isn't a disaster, but it's valid to be disappointed by this, and Mark certainly isn't doing more harm than good by giving an honest review and reporting facts.

If you're happy with this port, that's great. Others (like me) will wonder if the existence of this lower-effort LiveWire release makes it less likely that we'll ever get a definitive release with low input lag from someone like M2.

But because I'm a , I bought it on JP and US eShop and will be buying any physical versions they release.

Mark outright promoted piracy so yeah, he is causing harm.

as For M2, Who knows, both DDP DOJ and Ketsui already had ports and that didnt stopped them from doing their own ports.
not fully happy with the port but i dont consider it a disaster like many do, just happy to have another cave game on a modern console. just waiting for the physical release.

[ThundergunExpress]

I'm happy enough with the port, but of course I'd prefer M2 porting it. They didn't though, so I'm fine with this release.

Also waiting for a physical. I'll double dip, hopefully we can see the rest of the 360 cave ports on modern consoles.

[Steven]

lol caring about Elitist Underground's pretentious, rambling clickbait. That guy just hates everything, never makes a script and therefore always seems like he's aimlessly stumbling through what he wants to say, and when he does finally say it, it's usually got some incorrect information, especially if it is about anything other than CAVE or Battle Garegga, and is usually negative about everything. Too bad Shmup Junkie retired from Youtube because he actually seems to genuinely love these games. He also made scripts, which helped. A lot.

I highly doubt that the Switch version is unplayable. Even if it is, it's not like the exa version, 360 version, and PCB are going away. Yes, two of those are stupidly expensive, especially the PCB, but they'll always be around for people to buy and play if they have nothing better to spend their money on.

It does also make one wonder about how much input lag is too much. If one was to hypothetically ask a developer like IKD how much is too much and IKD hypothetically says that (arbitrary number) is too much, I wonder what people would say. Even if you can't tell that it's there, it's still there and it's still affecting your ability to play the game, which is why it should always be as close to zero as possible.

So did anyone get Type-D on this yet? I'm still very curious as to if D-EX still causes massive slowdown by simply shooting, which I believe was fixed in exa's release.

[Ms. Tea]

To turn the conversation back around to the game - how are people trying for the first time feeling about Saya mode? When I first played on 360 I wasn't sure how I felt about the lifebar, but ended up finding that the ways you rebuild it lead to some pretty interesting gameplay. Not to mention spending your lifebar to fire the shotlaser feels pretty fun.

[Starfighter]

I didn't know there was this much bad feelings towards The Electric Underground on here, I've enjoyed a lot (but not all, sure) of his content... Anyway, yeah this is OT. There's still no word on a european release at all (I asked Clear River Games who released the physical versions of the other shmups here in Europe but they haven't gotten back to me) so I'll wait for any news regarding that before posting in this thread again.