Japanese gaming is dead

[Drum]

Yes Dcharlie, saying that PS3 games are shit for the most part. Totally lost direction of whats good.

well, yes - i agree. I previously enjoyed the JPN/West split with the PS2+GC/Xbox - this time around Sony seem to be falling over themselves to ape the X360.

Simply put, IMO at least, the X360 is just better for games - i'm sure you might not feel much better, but there's been much more to enjoy on the MS machine. Can't say i'm particularly a massive MS fan though i do like what the X360 has brought to the table in terms of titles. MS seem intent on doing one dumb thing after another (Kinect looks terrible, raising the XBL price is crazy, general DLC/REGIONED DLC madness) - and i can see them becoming even crazier if they end up spanking Sony again. I can appreciate not liking MS for sure, but the X360... you've got to dance with the devil to hear the good tunes this gen i'm afraid.

That said - there's still games worth checking out on the PS3 : Heavy Rain (yes! seriously - just rent it and stick with it , it's a slow burn but it sounds like a lot of what you want from a game - it's definitely the outstanding "different" game of this generation) , Demons Souls, Folklore/souls, Valkyria Chronicles, Uncharted 2 and , probably not most peoples cup of tea (especially brits, even though i'm a brit myself) - MLB The Show represent THE best of sports gaming.

Now you got me curious: what's so great about the 360? I can see part of this evangelical operation you've got going on here is just rubbing his face in it, and I can appreciate that, but it looks like there's more going on here than that. I know the general wisdom has it that the 360 is the best thing going in consoles, and the DS for handhelds, but I don't think it's all that clear-cut. For me, they're all about the same. If you are going to flatly declare one the champion, you are going to need to show your working.
A while back I did a 'survey' of exclusive games released for 360/Wii/PS3 of titles on gamerankings that scored over 75% (I know, I know - but I did it for the same reason you're doing this ie. to get under neorichie's skin) and the results were pretty counter-intuitively (for most people) even, but they mirrored my own feelings pretty well. http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... s&start=30
360 is probably the console I'd get if I could only get one, but in the real world where I can get whatever and skim the best games from each, it doesn't seem any more essential than Wii or PS3. I feel the same way about DS and PSP btw. PC is generally what I use most, generally for emulation and indie stuff.

[Skykid]

I still have this faith that Sony will strive ahead and Microsoft will wither away until the next console launch.

I'd love you to be right, but you're dreaming buddy. This is going to happen as much now as it was when I told Ceph he was dreaming two years ago.

My favourite franchise last gen was God of War, but God of War 3 failed me due to the "Dad i'm going to kill you" storyline.

It's a very well put together game - expertly so, in fact. My biggest niggle is Kratos' voice, I just don't think the God of War should sound like a bronx bruiser, it's really off putting.

Killzone 2 i liked from start to finish , i am looking forward to number 3

Now I'm in fantasy land.
Killzone 2 was such a poor FPS. It retained all of the flaws of the original, much to my expectation and disappointment. I don't think I've willed any FPS to be great as much as Killzone 2, as I got through the first primarily on its styling. I love the look of Killzone, it's more appealing to me than any Halo - unfortunately the game is a stuttered, broken mess. Full of bugs and the enemy AI is ridiculous - it's like trying to shoot running ferrets at 1000 yards who only pop up for air every twenty seconds. So frustrating.

[dcharlie]

Now you got me curious: what's so great about the 360?

I think if you decide to exclude it - full stop - then you are missing (or i guess more accurately have missed) on a sizable chunk of gaming. That's all that's going on really. Being in since the launch is probably a bit different, but i agree that anyone looking to buy a consoles now and if didn't care about the back catalogue then really isn't much of a difference between the PS3/X360 in terms of retail - you are down to exclusive preferences on that front and the PS3 has certainly got a LOT stronger over the past year or two. Indie/Download games are slightly different in that XBL seems to have it much better (though PS3 has Wipeout Fury of course!) though this pales in to comparison with the PC.

As you say, and as i say above, there's games to enjoy on PS3 and X360. I'm not trying to get under Richie's skin - i get the reasons he doesn't like -PS3- gaming, and have suggested a few games that he might like on the platform and ,whilst everyones gaming tastes are very personal, there does seem to be type of games he is looking for out there on the PS3 - or , in the case of Child of Eden, coming out in the future.

[evil_ash_xero]

It's a very well put together game - expertly so, in fact. My biggest niggle is Kratos' voice, I just don't think the God of War should sound like a bronx bruiser, it's really off putting.

Actually, he sounds more like an angry black man. Which makes sense, since the voice actor is black.
As for the story...it couldn't have really gone much further. It's best that it ended the way it did in 3.
He didn't have any redeeming qualities. He was too anti-hero even for anti-heroes.

3 was just another kick ass game in the series. Anyone who says it "sucks" because it wasn't as good as 2, is just being stupid.

[E. Randy Dupre]

And this really is deserving of a lulwat:

The mechanics haven't changed over the years that much, a turn based RPG is a turned based RPG.

So what makes a turn based RPG for you then mate? For me its atmospherics and story. Clicking here and there doesn't really make or break a game does it?

See, I think what's happening here is the same as has happened previously: your comment suggests a lack of exposure to the genre as a whole.

Shin Megami Tensei 3, Final Fantasy XII, Resonance of Fate, Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light. That's just four turn-based RPGs, but all play completely differently from each other. And I mean completely - the only shared mechanic in battle is the idea of one character having a turn, then another character having a turn.

Saying they're all the same as each other is like saying Monopoly is the same game as Operation.

To answer your second question: atmospherics and story, sure, but they're nothing without entertaining gameplay. In fact, I'd sooner play a JRPG with a shit story but fantastic battle system than I would one that got things the other way around. Best of both worlds, though? The aforementioned SMT3, which I consider to be just about the pinnacle of the (very loosely definied) genre. After that? Tales of Vesperia.

[neorichieb1971]

Kratos could of joined with the Titans again

Before PS3 came out my friends were breaking 360's like every 3 months or so. That really put me off 360. Once I tried the 360 I hated the controller immediately. I know i'm in the minority but If I can't use the controller to some satisfactory degree i'm at a loss. There are 2 parts to this, I hate bulky controllers (GC is my fave) and I can't do the dual analog thing which most games on that system use. So I am not alienating 360 on its game catalog alone, its more a "feel" thing. PS3 had blu ray, a controller I'm used to and free online capabilities. It also had Sony's over ambitious marketting which i believed at the time as well . My first PS3 broke this week (launch 60gb) because of the blu ray drive. I have bought over 300 discs so I guess I got my monies worth.

But irregardless of console loyalty I can't see what I want to see on the other consoles. If GREEN was the way to go for what I wanted I'd buy 10 360's and push it like it was drugs.

I'll say it again, games look like they are made with engines, not hearts. If "realism" made games great we would be in fucking heaven. But its that goal of "realism" which is killing gaming for me. Its just boring and predictable. I'd rather see Mario 64 in HD than I would Call of Duty. Because Mario isn't real, the world he is in is not real.. the fact you could jump through teleports that waved in 3D was amazing. Or that you could spin down a pipe, or slide on your ass going down a slide collecting coins. They are all fun, inventive things done in that era with 3D.

The other possible reason I don't see things like Dcharlie is because he seems to buy everything where as I rely on word of mouth or reviews. I might be seeing only the cream of the coffee but what I'm seeing is 3D engine workouts. Not games.

Some franchises have somehow got too realistic looking. I could argue FF has gone that way. Square had a better idea with Kingdom hearts but I don't think that was executed quite that well. Games that benefit from realism seem to throw 600% too much action your way. As someone said above uncharted relied so heavily on masses of enemies generically respawning that the gameplay became as repetitive as pacman.

I don't think the games above are a disaster by any stretch of the imagination. They were great tech demos that would wow you for 20-30 minutes, but then you realized the next 6 hours were the same.

I play shmups simply because the controls are simple and the idea is surreal. My brain connects and my heart races. I don't get that with 3D games anymore. Which is a crying shame really.

[neorichieb1971]

See, I think what's happening here is the same as has happened previously: your comment suggests a lack of exposure to the genre as a whole.

That would be correct. I have not bought a RPG since FF7 on US launch. I'm sort of sitting in the back seat watching other people drive. But I can see the trailors and play mechanics and it looks roughly the same to me. Don't all FF fans compare all FF's to 3 and 7 because of the story and characters?

[E. Randy Dupre]

XII's gameplay has little in common with any previous FF. Same applies to XI.

[Skykid]

Shin Megami Tensei 3, Final Fantasy XII, Resonance of Fate, Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light.

FF XII was a good turn for the series, although I need to spend more time with it to be sure. The rest are yawn, especially Resonance of Fate with its fugly characters.
FF 4 Heroes I can't comment on, but I do have it right here.

I find there's more character in just about every facet of the old top down 2D RPG's than any of the new stuff. A little sprite having a humorous exchange in a sunny town, the gorgeous locations of Seiken Densetsu 2 & 3, the comedy think bubbles of Tales of Destiny, the drama of Chrono Trigger.

I want charm in my RPG's, that's what keeps me hooked, and the best modern example I've played in years (not counting the DS FF remakes, b/c they're remakes) is Dragon Quest IX - that game was really bringing back the proper JRPG vibe.

I'll say it again, games look like they are made with engines, not hearts. If "realism" made games great we would be in fucking heaven. But its that goal of "realism" which is killing gaming for me. Its just boring and predictable. I'd rather see Mario 64 in HD than I would Call of Duty. Because Mario isn't real, the world he is in is not real.. the fact you could jump through teleports that waved in 3D was amazing. Or that you could spin down a pipe, or slide on your ass going down a slide collecting coins. They are all fun, inventive things done in that era with 3D.

The other possible reason I don't see things like Dcharlie is because he seems to buy everything where as I rely on word of mouth or reviews. I might be seeing only the cream of the coffee but what I'm seeing is 3D engine workouts. Not games.

Some franchises have somehow got too realistic looking. I could argue FF has gone that way. Square had a better idea with Kingdom hearts but I don't think that was executed quite that well. Games that benefit from realism seem to throw 600% too much action your way. As someone said above uncharted relied so heavily on masses of enemies generically respawning that the gameplay became as repetitive as pacman.

I don't think the games above are a disaster by any stretch of the imagination. They were great tech demos that would wow you for 20-30 minutes, but then you realized the next 6 hours were the same.

I play shmups simply because the controls are simple and the idea is surreal. My brain connects and my heart races. I don't get that with 3D games anymore. Which is a crying shame really.

Quoted for all the damn truth in these paragraphs. You've definitely nailed something there.

[dcharlie]

I play shmups simply because the controls are simple and the idea is surreal. My brain connects and my heart races. I don't get that with 3D games anymore. Which is a crying shame really.

throwing it out there again , simply because you mentioned enjoying Rez , then the lawnmower man thing, and now this....

Are you aware of Child of Eden? If not, you should probably check it out - it's likely to be up your street by the sound of things.

[E. Randy Dupre]

Shin Megami Tensei 3, Final Fantasy XII, Resonance of Fate, Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light.

FF XII was a good turn for the series, although I need to spend more time with it to be sure. The rest are yawn, especially Resonance of Fate with its fugly characters.
FF 4 Heroes I can't comment on, but I do have it right here.

FFXII was let down pretty badly by a truly awful storyline, though. Somehow managed to be confusing and simplistic at the same time. I'm sure it'd have been a hell of a lot more engaging, plot-wise, if Squenix management hadn't forced Vaan and Penelo into the thing.

RoF's characters look pretty dire, I agree, but that's almost a tri-Ace tradition now, and they're still some way better than anything the company have managed to do with polys before now. It's a prime example of what I was saying before, though: the battle mechanics lift it above the standard achieved by other aspects of the game.

Can't believe you think SMT3 is yawn It's got everything you culd ever want from a JRPG - a superb and unique atmosphere, an astonishingly original and intelligent battle system (it's just about the only JRPG I've ever come across that doesn't require *any* grinding, as long as you spend time thinking about party construction and elemental weaknesses/strengths) and there's also a lot of the humour that you're missing.

It wasn't intended to be a list of the best turn-based RPGs, anyway - I just selected those four games as examples of how different they can be.

[MadScientist]

Quoted for all the damn truth in these paragraphs. You've definitely nailed something there.

Wait, so it's 'realism' that's killing gaming now? If that's the case then Western gaming is way more dead than Japanese gaming.

[neorichieb1971]

Get 2000 people's minds together to make the greatest sim the world has ever seen. Having 25 devs all working independently towards the same goals is a bit silly. So get war, racing and sports out of the way using the most sophisticated techniques known to cyber men and be done with it. Realism is only one goal. I don't even like people that play realistic games. Go out and play the real thing if you like golf or tennis, you can feel the rain hit your head when the weather is bad, its that realistic.

Child of eden is the successor to Rez right? I didn't think it was out yet.

[Skykid]

Can't believe you think SMT3 is yawn It's got everything you culd ever want from a JRPG - a superb and unique atmosphere, an astonishingly original and intelligent battle system (it's just about the only JRPG I've ever come across that doesn't require *any* grinding, as long as you spend time thinking about party construction and elemental weaknesses/strengths) and there's also a lot of the humour that you're missing.

Sorry, I had to do a google there. Shin Megami is Persona from Atlus right? No comment, haven't touched it - I don't know what I was thinking of there, I get confused sometimes with all the stuff I've had to look at over the years.

I know you weren't listing a best of, that's cool. I do struggle to connect with most JRPG's these days - Dragon Quest IX a notable exception.

Quoted for all the damn truth in these paragraphs. You've definitely nailed something there.

Wait, so it's 'realism' that's killing gaming now? If that's the case then Western gaming is way more dead than Japanese gaming.

You've done a mis-construe of the point he was making. 'killing' is a heavy word, but in essence I can relate to it being 'killed' in a creative sense. With all the modern power of games consoles, we should be seeing an evolution of what was superb about the thousands of fantasies whipped up over the last thirty years, whether extensions of anime or original IP's. Realism is the new gaming chic, it's what's on demand. Confound the new gaming demographic for being weaned on the wrong end of the stick, but that's exactly why western business is booming these days. Mario really is for 'kids' now, but there was a time when he ruled the roost doing the exact same thing he's ever done: whacking the hell out of weird things in a mushroom kingdom.
I agree that realism has its place, but filtering it into everything? That's a dull prospect.

But whatever, he made his point quite clear and detailed, just re-read the post. He likes gaming with heart and expression, and for some reason current gen games seem to be lacking those qualities.

[evil_ash_xero]

What hurts a lot of gaming for me nowadays is the padding and story stuff. If I play another game, where I control the dude walking around, while he is listening to some other person talk for 5 minutes, i'm going to flip. I mean, what is the point in that? Why can't they just have a short cinema or something? It's like "you're controlling a movie..ooooh".
I just rented Assassin's Creed 2 and Arkham Asylum, and both of these games forced me to deal with this crud.

BORING.

[Skykid]

What hurts a lot of gaming for me nowadays is the padding and story stuff. If I play another game, where I control the dude walking around, while he is listening to some other person talk for 5 minutes, i'm going to flip. I mean, what is the point in that? Why can't they just have a short cinema or something? It's like "you're controlling a movie..ooooh".
I just rented Assassin's Creed 2 and Arkham Asylum, and both of these games forced me to deal with this crud.

BORING.

QFT! Holy shit, this thread's finally picking up steam.

[MadScientist]

But whatever, he made his point quite clear and detailed, just re-read the post. He likes gaming with heart and expression, and for some reason current gen games seem to be lacking those qualities.

I read his post. It's just the usual 'I'm disenchanted with gaming right now and I'll find some huge, overly sweeping generalisation to explain what's wrong with it'. There are plenty of games around that aren't realistic in the slightest and display plenty of heart and creativity.

[E. Randy Dupre]

QFT! Holy shit, this thread's finally picking up steam.

Probably because it's going in about ten different directions at once

Sorry, I had to do a google there. Shin Megami is Persona from Atlus right?

Sort of, but also sort of not. The Persona games are a spin-off from the main SMT series - one of many, actually. Like all SMT spin-offs, they're not as good as the main series. Not that they're bad, just... not as good. They lack the depth, the tightness of design and the feeling (or, more accurately, the illusion) of endless possibility that the main games manage to carry across. Here's a review I wrote for a (poorly-controlled) non-gaming site a few years back. It's not great, but I still think it describes the atmosphere quite well.

I'd definitely recommend picking it up, if you get the time to have a go at it. Failing that, Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey on the DS is SMT4 in all but name. The combat has been simplified somewhat and the structure has been broken down into a large series of short missions, befitting the move onto a handheld, but it's still pretty fucking ace. Anybody feeling jaded with JRPGs owes it to themselves to give SMT3 a whirl, at the very least.

-

Got to agree with the post above, though. There are plenty of awesome games around at the moment and plenty that don't tread the path of visual realism. It's just a matter of looking wider and deeper for those games than a lot of people seem prepared to.

[neorichieb1971]

But whatever, he made his point quite clear and detailed, just re-read the post. He likes gaming with heart and expression, and for some reason current gen games seem to be lacking those qualities.

I read his post. It's just the usual 'I'm disenchanted with gaming right now and I'll find some huge, overly sweeping generalisation to explain what's wrong with it'. There are plenty of games around that aren't realistic in the slightest and display plenty of heart and creativity.

Just how many times should I spend $60 to find the ones your talking about mate? The reviews and magazines give 8/10 to anything that resembles last years hits. They do not review games based on the criteria that makes them fun for me. So I like games where the little details mean a lot.

Besides child of eden, last guardian, perhaps a handful of Nintendo 480p games and that weird shadow platform game on the 360, I'm not well catered for. Joe Dangerous was ok but only played it at a friends house. But I like the music and upbeat comedy in it. Its actually quite comical in places and requires the kind of skill you needed in Sonic 1 and 2.

To date i've probably finished 3 PS3 games and I wouldn't say I really enjoyed them, more like pushed myself. I remember playing God Of War and SoTC about 20 times through each. I just couldn't get enough. So as you can i've gone from a big high to a big low. But then again, it could just be me.

Also this thread is about japanese gaming being dead. Since that applies to my spending habits I am just explaining why I don't buy Japanese games anymore. Almost all my games for PS3 are US and I don't plan on buying that many Japanese games in the near future. At least not the type of games that would set Japan alight again anyway.

Another thing which pisses me off is PS3 installs. You can't even load a single disc without it going into update overdrive. My friend has a slow connection and has to wait 90 minutes to play call of duty online FFS. He has the fastest connection available to him lol.

[MadScientist]

Just how many times should I spend $60 to find the ones your talking about mate?

What does price have to do with it? I'm not sure if I've ever paid $60 for a game. As long as you're willing to wait a few months, there's no reason to buy anything day one (unless you really want to play multiplayer stuff, which I don't care about). Not knowing exactly what your tastes are, I'm not sure what other (relatively) recent PS3 releases to recommend that aren't aiming for realism, but here's a few anyway - Super Street Fighter IV, 3D Dot Game Heroes, ModNation Racers, Blur, Split Second, Sam & Max: The Devil's Playhouse, BlazBlue: Continuum Shift, Castle Crashers, Monkey Island 2 Special Edition: LeChuck's Revenge, Space Invaders Infinity Gene, Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light, DeathSpank, Shank, Swords & Soldiers, Soldner-X 2: Final Prototype, Mega Man 10, Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, After Burner Climax, Atelier Rorona: The Alchemist of Arland etc...

Anyway, your complaint was about 'realism' - is it really on the increase? Think about it. In the 80's and 90's you had companies like Microprose making hardcore simulations of various kinds. And these games weren't niche at all, they were very much part of the mainstream. Where is the equivalent today? If it exists, it's on the PC and it's aimed at a very small minority of gamers. Realism isn't the problem, it's the dumbing down of gaming to appeal to a wider console audience that's the problem.

[Acid King]

Just how many times should I spend $60 to find the ones your talking about mate? The reviews and magazines give 8/10 to anything that resembles last years hits. They do not review games based on the criteria that makes them fun for me. So I like games where the little details mean a lot.

Then maybe you should stop listening to reviews. Clearly, your reliance on reviews to find games is flawed if they don't even use criteria you find useful. It's boards like this where you're going to get information on games you may like, not reviews. And if your criteria is that clearly defined, you won't waste money on many games you don't like because you'll know before you buy a game if it's right for you.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Sorry, I had to do a google there. Shin Megami is Persona from Atlus right?

Sort of, but also sort of not. The Persona games are a spin-off from the main SMT series - one of many, actually. Like all SMT spin-offs, they're not as good as the main series. Not that they're bad, just... not as good.

Don't you be putting all Shin MegaTen spin-offs in one bag. As much as I find it unfortunate that Persona 3 was the ice-breaking one in the west, I wouldn't say DDS1&2 were "not as good" as Nocturne/Lucifer's Call. What they lack in the Pokémon and overworld departments, they make up for in the devouring mechanics, and the dungeons in DDS1&2 are of the finest Shin MegaTen quality. In my book both Digital Devil Sagas are every bit as edgy and labyrinthine a ride as Nocturne.

[Skykid]

QFT! Holy shit, this thread's finally picking up steam.

Probably because it's going in about ten different directions at once

Sorry, I had to do a google there. Shin Megami is Persona from Atlus right?

Sort of, but also sort of not. The Persona games are a spin-off from the main SMT series - one of many, actually. Like all SMT spin-offs, they're not as good as the main series. Not that they're bad, just... not as good. They lack the depth, the tightness of design and the feeling (or, more accurately, the illusion) of endless possibility that the main games manage to carry across. Here's a review I wrote for a (poorly-controlled) non-gaming site a few years back. It's not great, but I still think it describes the atmosphere quite well.

Ah, I'm only familiar with Persona - and not even very familiar with that. I'll have a look at your review, thanks for the heads up. If it's a JRPG of quality that slipped me by I'll gladly give it a whirl.

I read his post. It's just the usual 'I'm disenchanted with gaming right now and I'll find some huge, overly sweeping generalisation to explain what's wrong with it'. There are plenty of games around that aren't realistic in the slightest and display plenty of heart and creativity.

There aren't plenty, honest. You should look at the stackload of games that have been shoved under my nose, now logged as memories in my PSN/360 account history. I've played bundles and bundles of games this generation - in fact, I've probably been lucky enough to sample more firsthand this gen than any other, and I can vouch for the fact that anything with any soul is few and far between. Of course, more games in the market = more shit games going around. I can hang with that argument. I can also hang with Richie being a little too closed minded; I already told him in an earlier post that he shouldn't write off the best the 360 has to offer.
Don't get me wrong, I do play and enjoy plenty of current gen games. I don't spontaneously regurgitate at anything in 3D (well, Iron Man 2 brought me pretty close), and I've really enjoyed online multiplayer Gears, Halo and RDR amongst others.

But, I do think Richie's points shouldn't be written off. I know there's something in what he's saying - even if it's a struggle to properly define - because I feel it too.

This generation has the least 'character' of any preceding it. When 16-bit was king, the majority of western game devs sucked balls - they produced badly coded copycat games that made you go 'urgh'. Shaq-Fu springs to mind.
Nowadays, those western devs can code, and they can code good. I just don't think they've completely quashed some of that 'urgh' factor, it's still in there somewhere and it's dulling the blade slightly.

Anyway, interesting thread. I like some of Richie's points, I think there's truth in some of what he says. But I do respect and appreciate that there's a lot of appeal in gaming's current form for a lot of people. Maybe we're all just hung up on nostalgia? Maybe the 2D format just makes for better games? I used to think that for a while when 32bit arrived, but then Nintendo's 64 in-house stuff blew that theory out of the water for me. Ocarina of Time = 3D masterwork. With character.

[dcharlie]

There aren't plenty, honest. You should look at the stackload of games that have been shoved under my nose, now logged as memories in my PSN/360 account history. I've played bundles and bundles of games this generation - in fact, I've probably been lucky enough to sample more firsthand this gen than any other, and I can vouch for the fact that anything with any soul is few and far between.

Simply can't agree - there's a TON of shovelware crap and meh titles but there -are- plenty of titles which aren't based on realism that are worth playing.... i don't really want to move this into listwars :/

[Skykid]

There aren't plenty, honest. You should look at the stackload of games that have been shoved under my nose, now logged as memories in my PSN/360 account history. I've played bundles and bundles of games this generation - in fact, I've probably been lucky enough to sample more firsthand this gen than any other, and I can vouch for the fact that anything with any soul is few and far between.

Simply can't agree - there's a TON of shovelware crap and meh titles but there -are- plenty of titles which aren't based on realism that are worth playing.... i don't really want to move this into listwars :/

You don't need to, I'm sure I've played most of the ones you'd list anyway. But I don't see them appearing as regularly in the mainstream as they would have done ten years ago. Trust me, all I get is mainstream, and it's 90% disposable.

[MadScientist]

When 16-bit was king, the majority of western game devs sucked balls - they produced badly coded copycat games that made you go 'urgh'. Shaq-Fu springs to mind.

No. The majority of Western coders (European ones at least), were making computer games. Were IK+, Turrican, Speedball 2, Lemmings, Pinball Dreams etc... badly coded? Of course not.

[Skykid]

When 16-bit was king, the majority of western game devs sucked balls - they produced badly coded copycat games that made you go 'urgh'. Shaq-Fu springs to mind.

No. The majority of Western coders (European ones at least), were making computer games. Were IK+, Turrican, Speedball 2, Lemmings, Pinball Dreams etc... badly coded? Of course not.

Bit of a dichotomy in that sentence. You mean the European devs who did Gods/SWIV/Shadow of the Beast/Dizzy/Worms made up the majority of good coders? Sure, but the European contingent weren't the western majority overall, right?
Seriously, the Amiga had a good run (I had one) but I could tell the difference between a western coded game and a JP coded game quite distinctly even back then, and some of those white guys were fucking shit up on console, big time.

Cliffhanger?
Pit Fighter?
Vanna Whites Wheel of Fortune?
Pugsley's Scavenger Hunt (I don't want to hear it, it sucked.)

There were odd titles of pure glory of course: Flashback, Shadowrun, Syndicate, Doom, Smash TV etc etc. I remember, I played those games, they were awesome.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Badly coded? How about this one-man development effort?

[dcharlie]

You don't need to, I'm sure I've played most of the ones you'd list anyway. But I don't see them appearing as regularly in the mainstream as they would have done ten years ago. Trust me, all I get is mainstream, and it's 90% disposable.

90% disposable is applicable to almost everything on the planet though - i'd say it's even higher, but yup - agreed a ton is forgetable and previous gens had more regular leftfield ideas. That said, XBL/XBIG and PSN are providing more and more avenues for different ideas.

[MadScientist]

Bit of a dichotomy in that sentence. You mean the European devs who did Gods/SWIV/Shadow of the Beast/Dizzy/Worms made up the majority of good coders? Sure, but the European contingent weren't the western majority overall, right?

But, being in the West, you were probably only exposed to the best that Japan produced so your perspective is skewed towards thinking that Japan made games of a consistently high standard. A shitty Japanese console game of that (or any) era might not even get released in the West.