Shmups have become stale - former shmup lover - for devs

[drunkninja24]

^Well, I do think those attitudes are changing, what with Cave opening an English blog, Facebook page, and releasing some region-free games, and of course, working with western localization companies now.

[Kaiser]

^Well, I do think those attitudes are changing, what with Cave opening an English blog, Facebook page, and releasing some region-free games, and of course, working with western localization companies now.

Stop making me laugh, why not make them ALL region free from upcoming releases? OR EVEN bring the jap releases over here. If they're so open as you think they are, they would have done it already. Sure it is not a problem for most of us J360ers. However it is a FUCKIN` problem for people who already have a 360 but don't want to get a J360 or JTAG it. I don't deny your point.

[NzzpNzzp]

Stop making me laugh, why not make them ALL region free from upcoming releases? OR EVEN bring the jap releases over here. If they're so open as you think they are, they would have done it already.

And why haven't they given their games away for free yet? Because they hate everyone and don't want people to play their games.

QED

[Kaiser]

Stop making me laugh, why not make them ALL region free from upcoming releases? OR EVEN bring the jap releases over here. If they're so open as you think they are, they would have done it already.

And why haven't they given their games away for free yet? Because they hate everyone and don't want people to play their games.

QED

Honestly, that is not a valid point. How cave would gain profit if the games were free? Think twice before you type! Don't you understand that all 360 cave games being region free, would bring in more customers? Seriously. (Or at least localized games)

[NzzpNzzp]

Think twice before you type! Don't you understand that all 360 cave games being region free, would bring in more customers? Seriously. (Or at least localized games)

They kind of tried that, remember? Futari and ESPgaluda 2? And they had to pay extra for it, and then stopped? I dunno, this says to me that maybe it wasn't such a great idea for them financially afterall, rather than them just hating America.
They've got all those Iphone ports, too. Do they not count for some reason?

[BPzeBanshee]

Think twice before you type! Don't you understand that all 360 cave games being region free, would bring in more customers? Seriously. (Or at least localized games)

They kind of tried that, remember? Futari and ESPgaluda 2? And they had to pay extra for it, and then stopped? I dunno, this says to me that maybe it wasn't such a great idea for them financially afterall, rather than them just hating America.
They've got all those Iphone ports, too. Do they not count for some reason?

Maybe he's not counting the iPhone ports because in reality they're gimmicks.

Seriously though, you can't deny the Ketsui DS incident not being a good image on the naive belief that Cave loves everyone and wants to spread their goodness. They've clearly been focusing on their Japanese audience for the last few years (too long in my opinion) and they don't seem to be putting enough effort into what ports they DO get out. You cant say Cave hasnt had a longrunning hatred of some description for western audiences (and still going considering their porting choices seems to be bad ones according to said audience). To be fair, as Kaiser has already said, lolis aren't to westerner's likings, and ESPGaluda II and Futari have just enough of that to turn off a lot of people. Their bad choices in port-making and buggy releases are the only things that they're "paying extra for".

Also, where did you hear that making games region-free made them pay extra? Not meaning to nitpick, I genuinely want to see how a region-free release that they can sell worldwide costs more for them in the end than narrowing down to a Japan-only audience.

[Drachenherz]

*snip*

Also, where did you hear that making games region-free made them pay extra? Not meaning to nitpick, I genuinely want to see how a region-free release that they can sell worldwide costs more for them in the end than narrowing down to a Japan-only audience.

I've heard several times in this very forum, that region-free licences cost money, depending on the region you want your game to be played. But I've never seen any actual figures how much this region-free licensing really costs.

[BPzeBanshee]

*snip*

Also, where did you hear that making games region-free made them pay extra? Not meaning to nitpick, I genuinely want to see how a region-free release that they can sell worldwide costs more for them in the end than narrowing down to a Japan-only audience.

I've heard several times in this very forum, that region-free licences cost money, depending on the region you want your game to be played. But I've never seen any actual figures how much this region-free licensing really costs.

I wouldn't mind seeing some figures, especially if it can be seriously considered as an excuse for Cave to not release their good titles and then go through the efforts to release dodgy or loli-oriented material everywhere else. Yeah I'm looking at DeathSmiles PAL.

[Drachenherz]

My google-fu must be too weak in this case. I was looking for some figures about the registration-costs for getting a xbox 360 game region free, but I failed... 15 Minutes of intense search didn't bring up even the slighest hint of how much the certification process for getting a game region free costs...

I tried the following terms, in different combinations:

Xbox (360)
game
microsoft
"region free"
"no region lock"
costs
fee
certification
approval
licensing
international

... anybody whos google-fu is mightier than mine?

[NzzpNzzp]

Seriously though, you can't deny the Ketsui DS incident not being a good image on the naive belief that Cave loves everyone and wants to spread their goodness.

Yeah, that's just goddamn awful. They really did that? Christ. That's still kinda different to them apparently hating us so much that they're actively trying to stop us giving them money, though.

You cant say Cave hasnt had a longrunning hatred of some description for western audiences (and still going considering their porting choices seems to be bad ones according to said audience). To be fair, as Kaiser has already said, lolis aren't to westerner's likings, and ESPGaluda II and Futari have just enough of that to turn off a lot of people.

So lemme get this straight.
You think Cave hates the west so much.
That they're only releasing games over here that they think people won't like.

Seriously?

Also yeah that certification thing is meant to cost more isn't it? I read it on the internet, it must be true.

[Despatche]

please don't quote posts directly above your own unless you are pulling out a small piece of a large post, thank you

[Drachenherz]

please don't quote posts directly above your own unless you are pulling out a small piece of a large post, thank you

OK.

[Kaiser]

Let's keep the discussion civil or else we may "suffer the unexpected consequences"

[Despatche]

I am sorry but I was not feeling well then

you have to understand that many people (and good people at that) have more or less "left" because of threads like these and the posts in them, it makes me a sad boy

at one point this was considered a great place and now all I hear is ridicule

[RNGmaster]

Have you guys heard that the Pink Pork bundle is region-free? Cause that kinda blows a huge hole in your argument.

[drunkninja24]

^Well, I do think those attitudes are changing, what with Cave opening an English blog, Facebook page, and releasing some region-free games, and of course, working with western localization companies now.

Stop making me laugh, why not make them ALL region free from upcoming releases? OR EVEN bring the jap releases over here. If they're so open as you think they are, they would have done it already. Sure it is not a problem for most of us J360ers. However it is a FUCKIN` problem for people who already have a 360 but don't want to get a J360 or JTAG it. I don't deny your point.

If Deathsmiles is any indication, they can probably make a bit more money by getting their stuff localized abroad. If Deathsmiles were region-free, it may have added a few more sales, but I doubt it would have sold the 50,000+ extra units that the US version did. And I doubt Aksys would have picked it up for localization if so. However, they probably realize that there are certain games that just aren't likely to be picked up, such as the upcoming MMP/PS pack, so they make them region-free for the few people outside Japan that want them. As much as I wanted to see DFK region free, something tells me they have some plans in the works for localization on that title.

[Drachenherz]

I am sorry but I was not feeling well then

you have to understand that many people (and good people at that) have more or less "left" because of threads like these and the posts in them, it makes me a sad boy

at one point this was considered a great place and now all I hear is ridicule

Come on, don't take it so hard... Places like this, i.e. internet forums, tend to change... Old people go, new people come... I'm not here to ruin this place, I want to be part of the fun. It didn't mean to ridicule you, I just wanted to show you in a tongue-in-cheek way that to cut off a discussion sometimes is not the best solution.

Rather contribute to it and look where it goes from there. It could derail from the OP for a while, in humoristic, sarcastic or other-istic ways, but as long as the people who contribute to it actually care about the discussion one way or the other, it is worthwile.

Or not.

BTT:

Either way: Shmups are as stale as FPS are boring.

It's a matter of perspective and personal preferences/taste.

[Special World]

Anybody here play Big Bang Mini for DS? Extremely fun, fresh take on the shooter genre.

[BPzeBanshee]

Seriously though, you can't deny the Ketsui DS incident not being a good image on the naive belief that Cave loves everyone and wants to spread their goodness.

Yeah, that's just goddamn awful. They really did that? Christ. That's still kinda different to them apparently hating us so much that they're actively trying to stop us giving them money, though.

I think you misunderstood me, of course Cave's starting to open up now for releases, and I don't think that Cave hates the western audience in this day and age, but it seems to me that they have a very fucked up view of what we want, and are making bad decisions for port distribution as a result. Yeah, I get it they want our money, but they're clearly not listening hard enough or putting enough efforts into distribution. That's what I'm getting at.

[dunpeal2064]

I really can't blame cave for not keeping their games region free. I mean, it takes away their option to release the game over here for profit (or sell the rights to aksys to release over here). Anyone that was realy interested in the game would have already ported it before they could release it here, so they just dont.

I would much rather have paid $50 for an oversized-box US release Mushi Futari than that amount to ship it over here. Sadly, though, I think too many people just take arcade games and load them into MAME. A lot of the hardcore fans dont really pay for thier games.

[Special World]

I would think the "hardcore fans" would be willing to pay to import the newest games, personally. Sure, there are a lot of fantastic games on MAME, but fans would want to play the latest games, which aren't on MAME yet.

Many hardcore *gamers* might be content to stick with the older games on MAME, but I doubt the same could be said of hardcore fans. Also, hardcore fans would like to see their favorite companies continue to pump out games. The only way they can support that is by buying games.

Personally, I would much rather play games on my 360/DC/Etc than in MAME. I've been playing tons of Battle Bakraid recently and don't have any moral qualms with emulating games, but I just find it more satisfying to sit on my couch in front of my big tated TV with a product I've purchased. If Raizing released a Garrega/Batrider/Bakraid 3 pack, I'd pay the ~$80 to import it and never play the MAME versions again. Is this typical? I'm sure most everybody would rather have the actual product, just not enough that they'd shell out a huge amount of money for it.

[dunpeal2064]

I would think the "hardcore fans" would be willing to pay to import the newest games, personally. Sure, there are a lot of fantastic games on MAME, but fans would want to play the latest games, which aren't on MAME yet.

Many hardcore *gamers* might be content to stick with the older games on MAME, but I doubt the same could be said of hardcore fans. Also, hardcore fans would like to see their favorite companies continue to pump out games. The only way they can support that is by buying games.

Personally, I would much rather play games on my 360/DC/Etc than in MAME. I've been playing tons of Battle Bakraid recently and don't have any moral qualms with emulating games, but I just find it more satisfying to sit on my couch in front of my big tated TV with a product I've purchased. If Raizing released a Garrega/Batrider/Bakraid 3 pack, I'd pay the ~$80 to import it and never play the MAME versions again. Is this typical? I'm sure most everybody would rather have the actual product, just not enough that they'd shell out a huge amount of money for it.

I feel the same way, I would much rather own the import of a game than MAME it. I actually dont use MAME (which makes me very sad, as Progear looks sweet)

However, would you still be importing these games if you knew a release was planned in your region? I would rather have a game in my region than an import, even though I do love collecting imports.

I'd say for any older systems, importing works just fine for me. For the 360, though, its just too expensive. I cant afford the jap 360 and the high proced games, even though I know they are worth it. (then again, a lot of the users here put all of that cost to shame with pcbs, so maybe its just me and my poor ass)

[Special World]

Well, I'd want region free versions most of all. I have a US 360 and a Jap 360, and I hate having to switch between them all the time. My US 360 has Futari BL on it, which is my favorite game, but my Japanese 360 has all sorts of other games. Switching them all the time is just annoying. I would prefer having US releases to Japanese ones since they're cheaper, but I wouldn't be able to stand the wait for localization and, as Deathsmiles showed, sometimes you're not getting the same product.

For me, region free is good for everyone, especially those poor, poor PAL gamers who seem to get shafted so much.

Play Big Bang Mini.

[dunpeal2064]

Well, I'd want region free versions most of all. I have a US 360 and a Jap 360, and I hate having to switch between them all the time. My US 360 has Futari BL on it, which is my favorite game, but my Japanese 360 has all sorts of other games. Switching them all the time is just annoying. I would prefer having US releases to Japanese ones since they're cheaper, but I wouldn't be able to stand the wait for localization and, as Deathsmiles showed, sometimes you're not getting the same product.

For me, region free is good for everyone, especially those poor, poor PAL gamers who seem to get shafted so much.

Play Big Bang Mini.

I was unaware that Deathsmiles was not an accurate port from the japanese version. I suppose that is a good arguement for region free games, that when they get ported a lot of them get ruined. Never thought about it like that

Also, I can understand getting sick of switching systems. I dont have a way to play jap saturn games other than switching between my japanese saturn and us saturn. As such, I dont play US saturn games.

The price is actually the biggest reason for me. If Mushi hadnt gone platinum, i wouldnt be playing it (and thank god it did, because its just great) I dont know if Espgaluda will go up or down in price, but I would love to snag a copy of that game for $50 shipped like I did Mushi.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

If anyone is expecting more region free titles to follow after MMP/PS I wouldnt hold my breath. As far as im concerned MMP/PS is just a one off and was made RF to prop up Japanese sales considering the games arent popular with Japanese shmuppers.

I expect Cave to go back to doing the same as its allways done. Thats is make japanese releases region locked in the slim hope a western publisher picks there games up. And as of now only DS has been picked up with no news of any more titles to come, which if you think of all the japanese cave shooters released this year is a bummer

[BPzeBanshee]

I would think the "hardcore fans" would be willing to pay to import the newest games, personally. Sure, there are a lot of fantastic games on MAME, but fans would want to play the latest games, which aren't on MAME yet.

Many hardcore *gamers* might be content to stick with the older games on MAME, but I doubt the same could be said of hardcore fans. Also, hardcore fans would like to see their favorite companies continue to pump out games. The only way they can support that is by buying games.

Personally, I would much rather play games on my 360/DC/Etc than in MAME. I've been playing tons of Battle Bakraid recently and don't have any moral qualms with emulating games, but I just find it more satisfying to sit on my couch in front of my big tated TV with a product I've purchased. If Raizing released a Garrega/Batrider/Bakraid 3 pack, I'd pay the ~$80 to import it and never play the MAME versions again. Is this typical? I'm sure most everybody would rather have the actual product, just not enough that they'd shell out a huge amount of money for it.

If Eighting made a pack like that with proper TATEing support and anything of the quality that Cave tries to release I'd buy it. Dunno if I'd pay $80 bucks to import it, but I would at least understand if anyone did. Good on them.
As for the fans, I agree with that too. I think if they keep going the way they have been they'll start losing them though. I personally need accessibility when it comes to buying games, importing is not an option (unless its PAL region AND decent), so stuff like Guwange XBLA really will get my money's worth.

If they released ESPRade in XBLA with an Arrange Mode that smoothens the quirks the original had (like Guwange's Blue Mode), well bugger me I'd be too busy on that to play anything else.

[bcass]

Haven't read the whole thread (yet) but:

1. It was Asada himself who mentioned in a blog post that region-free certification/testing for Japanese devs/publishers is an additional expense.

2. Yes, shmups have become very stale, and I doubt very much that Cave will be responsible for the significant evolution of the genre. Cave make brilliant shumps, but they operate within very strict parameters. Their move into Western markets looks to me more like necessity rather than design. Their future market is not domestic. A sad but neccesary evil for all Japanese devs/publishers.

[Special World]

I'm not gonna act like Cave are some angelic bastion of creativity, but imo they innovate more than any other company.

Stuff like Espgaluda and Guwange have a pretty unique thing going on. Looking at the rest of the industry it's like "Aight you a spaceship shoot shit you got normal style or twin sticks dog do it."

In Espgaluda II you're a steampunk fairy and the goal is to CREATE bullets. What the shit is THAT? Also, Cave already did their part for the shooter genre by creating the bullet hell genre and constantly pumping out good games. There have been some innovative new shooters, but nothing that institutes fundamental changes to the genre. It's one of the oldest game genres, and I'm not sure how much there is left to explore. Really, the only changes I could see happening are putting them in the framework of a larger game (Star Control II comes to mind) and using RPG elements to update your ship. Personally, I'd just like somebody to make a fantastic VS shooter. In my eyes, Twinkle Star Sprites is a fantastic idea, but the game doesn't feel fully realized.

Another game I enjoyed comes to mind: Blast Works for Wii. It combines classic shooter gameplay with the sticky collecting of Katamari Damacy. It's a cool game, but can it revolutionize the genre? Hell no. Blast Work's concept only works once or twice.

[Demetori]

[2c]Just... been wondering. Do most people forget it takes money to make games? Aren't most of the current shmup developers very small teams, I can't see them getting backing from larger companies with pitches like, "Lots of bullets and scoring." to redefine the genre.

I mean, there's still a whole bunch of tricks they can employ but I have to wonder, the majority of the people who love shmups. Would they accept it? But how can they get the chance when there's not really much of a chance of seeing something that big anymore.

I think it'd take one huge risk and a lot of money at the companies expense, or they're just going to hold onto their fans as they are now and keep chugging as long as they can.

[/2c]

And if I had any ideas for the genre, it's not the ship. The levels need to be more dynamic while keeping the same flow shmups have, which.. sounds terrifyingly hard to do.

[DragonInstall]

Its tough to be innovative with such an old genre. Honestly the only shmup that blew me away recently was Espgaluda II BL, just cause how different the mechanics were. Before that I think it was Gradius 5 with its amazing level designs and Ikaruga for its color switch idea. Deathsmile was also pretty unique how you get to pick the stages and difficulty.

Only thing I really want to see cave improve are the backgrounds. Most of their games stages are boring to look at. Maybe a little bit more personality in the story / character.