Too close for comfort? the revival?

[Vamos]

In metallix build i get 100% at all times in mushis and there is implemented slowdown at some parts whilst maintaining 100% Im aware all the official builds dont have slowdown though.

[Drachenherz]

I'm playing 143u8, and Mushifutari BL has some (deliberate) slowdown at the pillbug-mayhem in Level 3, before the boss. I'm at 100%, but it slows down, and at this place, it's the same slowdown as in the 360-Port. Other than that: No slowdown with 143u8.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

OK, it was too tempting. I downloaded Mushihimesama and Ibara + Ibara Kuro and tried them with IseetThingss mame version. Ibara and Mushi runs both slow but they run. I am especially suprised how well Mushi actually runs. Ibara Kuro won't show up, I guess I have to rename it somehow.

The Build from Metalica won't run, it starts but when I try to load a rom it crashes. Dunno, it seems I am the only one here with this problem.

[moozooh]

As for the subject of slowdown, it's been mentioned a dozen times in this thread already - there isn't any, with the rare exception of places where the code is deliberately slowed down (after bosses). I think Metallic may have put in some kind of rudimentary slowdown thing because some places slow down a little more than what I remember from it running fullspeed before sound was implemented, but from my experience with the ports its nowhere near accurate (I think Deathsmiles US pre-patch may have more slowdown than in MAME :P).

If what we have discussed with MetalliC et al. in IRC is still relevant, this is the result of the overclocked blitter (the GPU, basically). Most of the slowdown happens when the amount of pixels from every rendered object goes over a certain value, which is blitter's fillrate. These values are most certainly different for every game—I'm pretty positive Cave has purposefully reduced it when going from Futari 1.0 to 1.5, and then again from 1.5 to BL (since slowdown happens all the damn time even in BL Original). I don't think anybody here knows them exactly, so the fillrate is either unlimited for all SH3 games in MAME, resulting in no blitter-induced slowdown, or still too high. The default value in Demul's latest test build that I have is, IIRC, 70,000,000 pix/s, which is still higher than needed (I've only tested Futari BL as the most slowdown-tastic Cave game).

Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

[joeboto]

The default value in Demul's latest test build that I have is, IIRC, 70,000,000 pix/s, which is still higher than needed (I've only tested Futari BL as the most slowdown-tastic Cave game).

what about input lag for SH3 games in that test build? mame has a lot.

[moozooh]

I don't think Demul has any. MetalliC should be able to tell.

[ptoing]

The default value in Demul's latest test build that I have is, IIRC, 70,000,000 pix/s, which is still higher than needed (I've only tested Futari BL as the most slowdown-tastic Cave game).

what about input lag for SH3 games in that test build? mame has a lot.

Define a lot. Futari has 2 frames input lag. And I still think that is what the PCB has as well in that case due to the DelayFrame setting in the port.

[moozooh]

Don't forget that playing on a computer adds a lot of input lag by itself. PCB's controls are basically wired into the CPU, the two frames you're talking about is all there is. On a PC, it's more like 100-200 ms PLUS two frames.

[ptoing]

What? I doubt that. 100 ms would be 6 frames of delay. That would be 8 in Futari. And that would be super noticeable. Here the game is pretty much as responsive as the port.

[moozooh]

If you factor your visual reaction time (anywhere from ~130 to 250+ ms) in that amount, it pans out just right. Basically, if your reaction time is longer than response time of the controls, you'll most likely never notice any lag.

Edit: To reword it better: you can only notice delays higher than your visual reaction time.

[ptoing]

I played around with that delay test thing someone posted in the shmupmame thread and I could notice the difference between 1 and 2 frames of delay in pretty much every case. And the difference between 1 and 0 about half the time.

In any case, the controls do not feel laggy, which is what counts imo. So far I never died because the controls felt fudge.

[xMetalliCx]

thanks for the positive feedback, but it's not exactly what I wanted to hear
I would like to hear some specific feedback about slowdowns.

for example - start Futari BL, maniac with Palm.
I see slowdowns in the same places as on Cave's DVD:
level 1
- when destroy rocks just before mid-boss appears.
- after killing midboss.
- when destroy green flying islands just before level-boss.
- when milking jewels from boss, and on second phase with massive bulet patterns.
level 2
a lot of slowdowns.
especially on massive bullet cancels then destroying icy towers or "red flying things"

and I mean REAL game slowdowns, so be sure speed is 100%.

anyone can write some similar feedback (bad or good doesnt matter %)) about other games ?
especially interested about Ibara, MMP, PS.

These values are most certainly different for every game—I'm pretty positive Cave has purposefully reduced it when going from Futari 1.0 to 1.5, and then again from 1.5 to BL (since slowdown happens all the damn time even in BL Original).

dont know about 1.0 to 1.5, but BL have more slowdowns than 1.5 definitelly by game design.

[joeboto]

Define a lot. Futari has 2 frames input lag. And I still think that is what the PCB has as well in that case due to the DelayFrame setting in the port.

a lot of my deaths is because of my ship didnt stop right after i release the button.

anyone can write some similar feedback (bad or good doesnt matter %)) about other games ?
especially interested about Ibara, MMP, PS.

MMP is quite good. the one before first boss is quite accurate.
however, mushi 1 is far from good. played ultra, and first boss patterns almost has no slowdown at all.

[ptoing]

Define a lot. Futari has 2 frames input lag. And I still think that is what the PCB has as well in that case due to the DelayFrame setting in the port.

a lot of my deaths is because of my ship didnt stop right after i release the button.

No such problems here at all.

[joeboto]

Define a lot. Futari has 2 frames input lag. And I still think that is what the PCB has as well in that case due to the DelayFrame setting in the port.

a lot of my deaths is because of my ship didnt stop right after i release the button.

No such problems here at all.

oh what the hell. found the culprit. nvidia settings --> manage 3d settings --> set maximum pre rendered frame to 0.
walla!

[ptoing]

\o/

[mjclark]

oh what the hell. found the culprit. nvidia settings --> manage 3d settings --> set maximum pre rendered frame to 0.
walla!

So out of interest, for these MAME builds what are the optimum performance video settings (in nVidia control panel and mame.ini).
Also on a dual core do I enable multithreading or no?

[Vamos]

Id like to know theoretically will ddp dfk run on the emu? as its actually a sh3 with modifications namely more ram and some other differences.

[ptoing]

I would guess that it would not be too hard to account for those differences.
So I would say that yes, it would run, if it was dumped and someone fiddled a bit with the driver.

[Shin]

Id like to know theoretically will ddp dfk run on the emu? as its actually a sh3 with modifications namely more ram and some other differences.

yes, but black label won't probably be released before 2013. (DDP DFK on the other hand is fine in that regard)

[Zosite]

So out of interest, for these MAME builds what are the optimum performance video settings (in nVidia control panel and mame.ini).
Also on a dual core do I enable multithreading or no?

Well, I've always had excellent visuals with no real performance issues with default mame.ini (mame -createconfig command line) plus:

priority 1
multithreading 1
video d3d
window 0 (playing fullscreen)
prescale 3 (only with my 1280x1024@60 display TATEd. Use it on pillarboxed YOKO and you'll get nasty shimmering effects)
d3dversion 9
filter 1
resolution 1280x1024@60 (of course this one could differ for your particular display)
triplebuffer 1 (replacing vsync, quite useful)
switchres 1
.
.
.
cheat 1 (err... ahem...)

I've kept myself far from HLSL to date and I won't take a single step there until it gets some better/more intuitive but don't forget to use prescale 1 if you decide to use its fancy effects.

And about those NVIDIA settings... ufff... that's not that easy. Turning "Threaded optimization AUTO" and "Triple buffering ON" (OpenGL only AFAIK, you'll need something like D3DOverrider for DirectX) are mandatory but other than that is trial and error, depending on your software and particular specs. I.E.: joeboto said that "Maximum pre-rendered frames 0" solved his input lag trouble and that's splendid... as long as it works for him; for I've heard of some problems when this value goes under 1, even BSODs. Then again, I've been playing with this value as 3 to date and, believe it or not, I haven't noticed any input lag to date. My suggestion would be for you to try 2, 1 or even 0 if your system seems stable.

About the "multithreading" option in mame.ini you should enable it for any SH3 or STV game; it definitely helps because I've heard a second core is useful for those d3d tasks although it won't be that useful for the emulation itself, which can't be easily broken up into parallel subtasks. And if you happen to have more cores the rest can be used to mantain the rest of system processes (not MAME related) preventing them from stealing emulation performance. However... I strongly suggest deactivating multithreading for the rest of the games if possible for it doesn't come without its glitches; try "Final Fight" on MAME 0.141 or 0.142 with multithreading enabled and you'll see what I mean (if you look carefully).

I would like to hear some specific feedback about slowdowns.

Indeed! Please accept my apologies for my enthusiasm after seeing all these little jewels at 100% speed. I've all those splendid XBOX360 ports and I'll test Futari, ESPGaluda 2 and Deathsmiles (PAL) slowdown now. MMPork and the gaudy Sweets are way too unstable on those loadings, at least for me, and I prefer not to play Mushi and Ibara nasty PS2 ports under PCSX2 for any serious testing.

[IseeThings]

Id like to know theoretically will ddp dfk run on the emu? as its actually a sh3 with modifications namely more ram and some other differences.

Such minor modifications are not an issue, might need 1 line of code changing from the current driver.

Would be more of an issue if they reprogrammed the blitter chip in a completely different way, and given they upload the microcode for that it's a far more realistic potential source of a problem, however, I doubt they do

That said, the driver is NOT tested with DFK, because I don't have it.

[nasty_wolverine]

can this build be compiled with the lagless(input) drivers???

[joeboto]

The pre-rendered thing defaults at 3. Mine was set at 8. Reducing them to 0 did reduce the input lag.

[Korszca]

anyone can write some similar feedback (bad or good doesnt matter %)) about other games ?
especially interested about Ibara, MMP, PS.

Some Pink Sweets info:
The drop for loading stages is severely decreased, so that's good. It's still there and still noticeable, but the drop is a lot less for a lot shorter of a time.
However, all of the deliberate slowdown is (still) missing.

To IseeThings: Upgrading to the latest build of MAME solved my earlier problems with Pink Sweets, with the exception of the drop shadows in the title screens.

[O. Van Bruce]

So. I post on the hope that some kind soul answers, even if it's a negative answer.

Should I be hoping to play Daifukkatsu with a ROM on my computer in the near future?

[IseeThings]

anyone can write some similar feedback (bad or good doesnt matter %)) about other games ?
especially interested about Ibara, MMP, PS.

Some Pink Sweets info:
The drop for loading stages is severely decreased, so that's good. It's still there and still noticeable, but the drop is a lot less for a lot shorter of a time.
However, all of the deliberate slowdown is (still) missing.

To IseeThings: Upgrading to the latest build of MAME solved my earlier problems with Pink Sweets, with the exception of the drop shadows in the title screens.

That's... odd.. nothing has actually changed in the latest build of MAME that should have any measurable effect on the emulation.

I'll need details on the dropshadow thing, although I admit asking for a good recording of such effects is tricky, it sounds like the blend mode isn't quite handled correctly, maybe the overall tint is meant to be applied as a final step not a first or something like that.

I'm guessing it's different enough that you've ruled out a simple monitor settings difference being the problem?, PC monitors have far better contrast than your average arcade monitor, so you tend to see slight colour differences more clearly.

*edit* I see the report at Mametesters, that's certainly an odd one, and would be very obvious. Any chance of a recording of your PCB in action?

*edit2* at the end of a level in MAME there is a circle containing graphics, this is currently getting blended to almost solid white for quite a long time before fading down, is that also a bug? If you play it you'll see what I mean.

Thanks for the video on MT, always good to have reference material

[Vamos]

So. I post on the hope that some kind soul answers, even if it's a negative answer.

Should I be hoping to play Daifukkatsu with a ROM on my computer in the near future?

Well before you edited it said "someday" i think we can stick with that and a postive sure .

[IseeThings]

So. I post on the hope that some kind soul answers, even if it's a negative answer.

Should I be hoping to play Daifukkatsu with a ROM on my computer in the near future?

There is no ROM.... Buy the PCB and send it to Guru and maybe. As I've said earlier, I'd rather see the revisions of existing games found first as a priority tho, we're definitely missing the newest revisions of Mushihime Sama, Muchi Muchi Pork, Pink Sweets, Futari 1.0, Death Smiles' Mega Black Label and counteless other obscure ones which will probably never show up.

[mjclark]

Well, I've always had excellent visuals with no real performance issues with default mame.ini...

Thanks- will play around with all this when I've got some spare time